[3.5] Mordenkainen

[Gorbash]

Quick question - does anyone know where can I find stats for 3.5 Mordenkainen?

[Starscream]

I think they have him in the Epic Level Handbook somewhere. Not sure though, don't own that one.

[Gorbash]

Man, how in the nine hells didn't I think of looking there? I flipped through dozens of Dragon/Dungeon Magazines, and he's in ELH...

And HA! I knew my wizard had higher Int than him!

[herrhauptmann]

Out of curiousity, what are his stats and feats?
I've read some of the background material for greyhawk, and many of the 'Super powerful wizards' really are anything but that.
Like the one who's a ranger 10/wizard 10, with TWF style.

[Gorbash]

Yes, that is the case mostly. Around here we talk about Wizards with Int 34, Mordenkainen has 27 at lvl 27.

Str 10
Dex 17
Con 18
Int 27
Wis 15
Cha 18

Feats: Great Fortitude, Combat Casting, Brew Potion, Improved Initiative, Lightning Reflexes, Quicken Spell, Heighten Spell, Craft Wondrous Item, Maximize Spell, Spell Penetration, Craft Staff, Improved Spell Capacity (10th),
Improved Spell Capacity (11th), Improved Spell Capacity (12th), Improved Metamagic, Epic Spellcasting, Epic Spell Penetration.

He can somehow cast 12 spells of 3rd lvl per day.

[Shpadoinkle]

e can somehow cast 12 spells of 3rd lvl per day.

Ring of Wizardry?

[herrhauptmann]

Only 2 craft feats? Hmmm... You'd expect ring and staff, or rod and staff. Not potion.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Yes, that is the case mostly. Around here we talk about Wizards with Int 34, Mordenkainen has 27 at lvl 27.

Str 10
Dex 17
Con 18
Int 27
Wis 15
Cha 18

Feats: Great Fortitude, Combat Casting, Brew Potion, Improved Initiative, Lightning Reflexes, Quicken Spell, Heighten Spell, Craft Wondrous Item, Maximize Spell, Spell Penetration, Craft Staff, Improved Spell Capacity (10th), Improved Spell Capacity (11th), Improved Spell Capacity (12th), Improved Metamagic, Epic Spellcasting, Epic Spell Penetration.

He can somehow cast 12 spells of 3rd lvl per day.

Parts that need to change are bold. Not to mention his lack of PrCs. Seriously, WotC needs to hire Tippy or Tidesinger or someone to write their famous NPCs.

[AstralFire]

Tippy or Tidesinger? I think anyone capable of pointing out the Big 5 with a rudimentary explanation could do better.

[The Professor]

Parts that need to change are bold. Not to mention his lack of PrCs. Seriously, WotC needs to hire Tippy or Tidesinger or someone to write their famous NPCs.

While I certainly agree with the bolded parts... Having Tippy design the famous NPCs? Then it'd be less "Hey guys, Mordenkainen! He's famous! I bet he was some menial task for us to do!" and more "It's Mordenkainen! He knew he'd meet us at least a week in advance, knows how we fight, and if he has it in for us, we're doomed."

[Sstoopidtallkid]

While I certainly agree with the bolded parts... Having Tippy design the famous NPCs? Then it'd be less "Hey guys, Mordenkainen! He's famous! I bet he was some menial task for us to do!" and more "It's Mordenkainen! He knew he'd meet us at least a week in advance, knows how we fight, and if he has it in for us, we're doomed."

He's a 27th level Wizard with the closest thing to a suitcase nuke in D&D named after him. He is legendary for his casting abilities. He should be considerably more powerful than any CL 21 Wizard. Fear that you might annoy him should be default. As-is, he's not.

[Doc Roc]

It's Mordenkainen. Those are just the stats he wants you to know.
After all, what's a few casts of mindrape on a few writers when you've saved the world so many times?

I do have a Mordenkainen build in my back pocket, a sort of image in my head. It's how I want to think of the last truly tangible avatar I have for Gary Gygax. Warm, affably omnipotent, strongly neutral, and invested in something larger and better than you or I.

[Morty]

I'm trying to see what's wrong or why anyone should even care that canonical NPCs aren't twinked out, but I really got nothing.

[Oslecamo]

He's a 27th level Wizard with the closest thing to a suitcase nuke in D&D named after him. He is legendary for his casting abilities. He should be considerably more powerful than any CL 21 Wizard. Fear that you might annoy him should be default. As-is, he's not.

It would be quite annoying if people bought the ELH and the NPCs needed rules from other books to worck. Specially books wich hadn't been publicized yet.

Besides ELH is 3.0. By the time 3.5 came out, Mormekdain has gained so many levels and gotten so powerfull that WOTC didn't bothered to publicize his stats again, because they would fill several books of their own and basically come down to "Mormekdain wins".

And even if he had taken toughness as his only feat at all levels, as a 27th level pure wizard he would still be bloody fearsome.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

I'm trying to see what's wrong or why anyone should even care that canonical NPCs aren't twinked out, but I really got nothing.

Legendary Canonical NPCs, ones who are Epic Casters that the Devils fear, should be able to destroy any low-epic party. That one can't. I'm not talking necessarily Cindy here, but taking Combat Casting? Really? That's not unoptimized, that's saying 'I want an evil party to kill me and take my stuff'.

[Doc Roc]

I'm trying to see what's wrong or why anyone should even care that canonical NPCs aren't twinked out, but I really got nothing.

We're not asking for twinked out. We're just asking for sensible, and maybe to follow the tips that they themselves provided. I'm gonna presume we just share completely different perspectives on the Simulationism Vs. Gamism debate. The ELH\SRD themselves have the vast majority of the "tricks" we're talking about.


Because improved metamagic is a really well-hidden feat. :: gently sardonic ::

[Oslecamo]

Legendary Canonical NPCs, ones who are Epic Casters that the Devils fear, should be able to destroy any low-epic party. That one can't. I'm not talking necessarily Cindy here, but taking Combat Casting? Really? That's not unoptimized, that's saying 'I want an evil party to kill me and take my stuff'.

This is 3.0 we're talking about. Core and ELH only. Mormekdain was level 1 long long ago. What did you want him to pick when he started his career? Toughness?

[Keld Denar]

Falls into the trap of "if you stat it, they will want to kill it". Better to just say that Mordy shows up, nukes the bajebus outa ya, no save, and be done with it. Like the guy who tried to stat up a Supernova...whats the point? It doesn't matter if you roll a hundred thousand dice or a million, likewise it doesn't matter what Mordy's actual stats are. You piss him off, you die.

Game over mang! Game over!

[Gorbash]

This is 3.0 we're talking about. Core and ELH only. Mormekdain was level 1 long long ago. What did you want him to pick when he started his career? Toughness?

I can understand a misspell of one letter, but there's some serious difference between Mordenkainen and Mormekdain.

[Thurbane]

Our group just encountered Mordy in Expedition to the Ruins of Greyhawk.

[AvatarZero]

Hmm. According to Wikipedia, Mordenkainen is Gary Gygax's PC Wizard (citation needed). I didn't know that.

I wonder if Nystul, Rary, or Bigby are player characters for other big names in DnD.

Also, can you imagine if Disjunction was invested as a custom spell by a player in a modern game?

[AstralFire]

Virtually all of the trademarked humanoids mentioned in the names of core feats and spells - Robilar (not a wizard!), Mordenkainen, Bigby, Melf - are from Gygax's groups.

[Drider]

Virtually all of the trademarked humanoids mentioned in the names of core feats and spells - Robilar (not a wizard!), Mordenkainen, Bigby, Melf - are from Gygax's groups.

I believe bigby was mord's minion, who was originally evil, that he charmed+permanted and "redeemed". Not completely sure where I heard that, but i remember thinking that was the case. (it might not be canon, but I'm 60% sure it is)

[ocato]

There's a sidebar in one of the 4e books that says that all of the high and mighty wizards who have spells/rituals named after them are old Gygaxian Era PCs.

[Shpadoinkle]

I recall from some article about something that Gygax wrote that Bigby had brothers named (really) Rigby and Digby. The way it was written it was clear he was talking about an actual game he was involved in, not a story or something.

[Keld Denar]

They are all NPCs from the world of Greyhawk, Gygax's brainchild. Whether they were PCs or NPCs, I do not know, but they are all from Greyhawk cannon. For instance, Lord Robilar, as mentioned above, was a fighter who was part of the hero's who tricked Iuz (bad guy) and imprisoned him in the ruins beneath Castle Greyhawk. If you can, see if you can get your hands on some of the year 8 Living Greyhawk modules. They involve a lot of showdown between Mordy, Tensor, Rary, Otiluke, and a few other of the famed Circle of 8.

Also, I refer you to www.canonfire.com, the most expansive collection of Greyhawk lore I've ever seen.

The Circle of Eight
The Circle was founded in 571 CY by Mordenkainen, from the remnants of the Citadel. The exact make-up of the eight has changed over time and has continued to remain somewhat of a secret to the general populace of the Flanaess.

Among the group's original members were former Citadel member Bigby, as well as the wizards Bucknard, Drawmij, Leomund, Nystul, Otto, and Rary. In 574 CY, Leomund left to explore other planes of existence, and was replaced by former Citadel member Tenser.

Also from canonfire:

Creative origins
Originally a player character invented by Gary Gygax, Mordenkainen's name is derived from the names Mordecai and Lemminkainen.

[Kaiyanwang]

In one Dragon Magazie should be Iggwilv stats, too. Far more powerfut than mordenkainen, Level 30 or so. If you wonder who's she, take a look in FCI. She was previously known as Natasha (Tasha).

Anyway, when you see Mister M. stats, think about 4 things:

- When it was written, he was core + ELH

- Not everybody play optimized

- He's a Wiz. Can kick you ass anyway with the right spell selection, IMHO

- Mordy was great more for his political manipulations and his "true neutral" attitude.

[Coidzor]

Indeed. I think a couple of the Greyhawk gods are ascended Gygaxian PCs. Most notably Farlhganan or what have you.

I can understand a misspell of one letter, but there's some serious difference between Mordenkainen and Mormekdain.

Sounds like someone mispronounced the summoning ritual again!

[SilverSheriff]

Indeed. I think a couple of the Greyhawk gods are ascended Gygaxian PCs. Most notably Farlhganan or what have you.

St. Cuthbert?

[Fishy]

I do have a Mordenkainen build in my back pocket, a sort of image in my head. It's how I want to think of the last truly tangible avatar I have for Gary Gygax. Warm, affably omnipotent, strongly neutral, and invested in something larger and better than you or I.

I don't really think Warm and Affable really apply to the creator of the Tomb of Horrors.

Nor do they really apply to the mage who invented the ultimate weapon to destroy other mages.

Also the whole 'start beating up on Good guys the moment you've finished helping them win, to preserve Balance' thing is kind of mean.