best mundane weapon in 3.5

[Mystic Muse]

pretty much a non magical weapon. what's the best one you can get without going into abilities in terms of pure damage output.

[The Rose Dragon]

Scythe. Definitely.

[Kaiyanwang]

My vote to mercurial greatsword. 2d6 is reliable and in case the enemy is vulnerable to crits, x4 can turn a combat.

Probably there are better ones, but..

[The Rose Dragon]

My vote to mercurial greatsword. 2d6 is reliable and in case the enemy is vulnerable to crits, x4 can turn a combat.

Probably there are better ones, but..

Yes, but you're wasting an EWP feat for 2 extra damage. Scythe is also slashing, two-handed, has a x4 critical multiplier and deals 2d4 damage.

Also, Scythe can make trip attacks.

[bosssmiley]

Greatsword (2-12 + 1+1/2Str, 19-20, x2), or Greataxe (1-12 + 1+1/2Str, 20, x3).

Eschew the false allure of exotica, and put aside twinkish ways. Walk forevermore in the path of hack'n'slash-ish righteousness.

[Mystic Muse]

so 8d4 versus 4d6? yeah I think scythe is better in terms of crits and trips are good from what I know. however how many criticals do I really have a chance of getting? also somebody mentioned some form of hammer that deals 3d6.

[Mystic Muse]

Greatsword (2-12 + 1+1/2Str, 19-20, x2), or Greataxe (1-12 + 1+1/2Str, 20, x3).

Eschew the false allure of exotica, and put aside twinkish ways. Walk forevermore in the path of hack'n'slash-ish righteousness.

wait. greatsword gets 2d12? or am I reading that wrong?

[The Rose Dragon]

also somebody mentioned some form of hammer that deals 3d6.

Greathammer. It only deals 3d6 damage for Large creatures or medium creatures with Powerful Build. It also has x4 critical multiplier, is bludgeoning and gives bonuses to sunder. Sadly, it's an Exotic Weapon.

Also, you're reading it wrong. It deals damage between 2 and 12 inclusive, not 2d12.

[Mystic Muse]

Greathammer. It only deals 3d6 damage for Large creatures or medium creatures with Powerful Build. It also has x4 critical multiplier, is bludgeoning and gives bonuses to sunder. Sadly, it's an Exotic Weapon.

Also, you're reading it wrong. It deals damage between 2 and 12 inclusive, not 2d12.

okay. otherwise I'd be using that.

[oxinabox]

Greatsword, you just can't beat 2d6, crit 19-20/x2 no exotic proficiency required.
much better than greatAx - 1d12, crit x3. because 2d5 has the bellcurve probablity.
2d6 normally around 7, minimum 2
1d12 equally likly to be 1 as it is to be 12.

if you want to spend a feat then maybe fullblade, 2d8 crit 19-20/x2.

two Bastard Swords 1d10, with the oversided two weopon weilder from complete adventurer, is a cool idea, if you have full round actions to use though.


I likethe idea of the Warfan: your enemies must make a sensemotive vs your bluff to realise it's a weopon (until you use it), granting you a +4 to attack if they fail. but it's only a 1d6.

[Kaiyanwang]

Yes, but you're wasting an EWP feat for 2 extra damage. Scythe is also slashing, two-handed, has a x4 critical multiplier and deals 2d4 damage.

Also, Scythe can make trip attacks.

Yeah true. Our group uses Weapon Categories so you can take EWP for free at level 1 if you BAB is +1. I have to admit that my judgement is not balanced.

[Eldariel]

Falchion is also a contender due to 18-20/x2 criticals, which in practice means a lot of multiplications (really nice for characters with high base damage modifiers).

Oerthblood Greatsword deals strictly the most damage though.

[Kaiyanwang]

Oerthblood Greatsword deals strictly the most damage though.

Wasn't oerthblood a debuffer agains spell saves?

[Eldariel]

Wasn't oerthblood a debuffer agains spell saves?

That and +1 Luck to hit & damage.

[Kaiyanwang]

That and +1 Luck to hit & damage.

Didn't remember this. Wow. Even better than Baatorian Greensteel, unless you have a luck bonus from another source.

[Irreverent Fool]

Well, assuming I'm not making some grave error, if you're looking for average damage output you can do the following:

Find the average damage of the weapon, which is one-half the highest die value plus 0.5.
Example (Scythe): (Add values together if using multiple dice) The average of 1d4 is 2.5, so the average of 2d4 is 5.

Find the average critical damage.
Example (Scythe): 2d4x4 is 8d4 for an average of 20.

Multiply the average critical damage by the chance to critical.
Example (Scythe): A Scythe only criticals on a 20, which is 5%. 0.05 x 20 is 1.

Add that value to the average damage.
In this case the total would be 6.

So, over time, the average damage of a scythe is 6
The average damage of a greatsword is 8.4
The average damage of a greataxe is 7.475
The average damage of a falchion is 6.5

You do have to take strength bonuses into account. If you have a +4 strength bonus (which is of course +6 damage with a 2-hander), for example, the greatsword's average becomes 14.3 and the greataxe's become 14.375.

I'm sure someone will point out that I'm missing something, but this seems to work.

obnoxious
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[Indon]

And the Scythe's average damage turns into 13.2, at +4 strength bonus.

At a Strength of 30 (Str bonus +10, +15 with a 2-hander):

Greataxe:24.725
Scythe:24

So it would seem the Scythe would pull ahead as strength increases, but it takes a very great deal of strength indeed.

[Eldariel]

stuff

I'm not sure this works, as the exact numbers really depend on the AC you're attacking. This is especially true for varying critical ranges.

But yeah, .05*0+.9025*damage+.0475*crit should get you the average damage vs. AC 0 (accounting only for natural misses).


For scythe, that'd be .9025*5+.0475*20=5.4625 vs. Greatsword's .855*7+.095*14=7.315.

I'd say your calculations are thrown astray where you add the average critical damage to the base damage. I'm just not convinced it leads to the right results, as it emphasizes the base damage.

EDIT: But yeah, it's obvious that weapons with higher critical factor (that is, higher critical multiplier or critical chance; the effect of multiplier vs. chance should be identical) benefit more of high damage bonuses.

[Indon]

I'd say your calculations are thrown astray where you add the average critical damage to the base damage. I'm just not convinced it leads to the right results, as it emphasizes the base damage.

I think it about breaks even - normal hits don't always hit, but criticals aren't always confirmed either - and since confirming a critical requires a hit, the hit/critical ratio should be about even for any target.

[Irreverent Fool]

I'd say your calculations are thrown astray where you add the average critical damage to the base damage. I'm just not convinced it leads to the right results, as it emphasizes the base damage.

EDIT: But yeah, it's obvious that weapons with higher critical factor (that is, higher critical multiplier or critical chance; the effect of multiplier vs. chance should be identical) benefit more of high damage bonuses.

I was kind of thinking that, myself, but I think it helps account for critical damage/chance in weapon choices. I had hopes that someone who knew what they were doing would post a more accurate equation .

You can't ignore critical range and damage multipliers in weapon consideration completely, since it WILL factor in at some point. A weapon with a critical range of 20/x2 (against an AC of 0, yes) will do double damage roughly 5% of the time (though it won't always confirm so I guess that does indeed throw it off.) I included it because I was trying to look at average damage over a long period.

I don't think you need to take armor class into consideration unless you're also taking power attack into consideration, since it's going to have the same effect regardless of weapon damage.

obnoxious
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[Fitz]

ok its situational but i'll put a offside call for the lance, the automatic x2 damage for charging means it gets a lot of bonus out of a charge , add in some feats and so on and you can rapidly rack up the damage (got a level 8 character up to a potential 189 damage on a crit when charging: for those looking at averages the standard damage worked out at 3d8 + 64 +3d6 +4d6 acid, required only 2 rounds buffing on a 32 point buy character)

[Irreverent Fool]

ok its situational but i'll put a offside call for the lance, the automatic x2 damage for charging means it gets a lot of bonus out of a charge , add in some feats and so on and you can rapidly rack up the damage (got a level 8 character up to a potential 189 damage on a crit when charging: for those looking at averages the standard damage worked out at 3d8 + 64 +3d6 +4d6 acid, required only 2 rounds buffing on a 32 point buy character)

Uberchargers don't count!

Also, are you doubling the acid damage? Normally when multiplying damage you multiply only the base dice of the weapon and any static bonuses (+2, +3, etc), not any extra dice of damage (such as sneak attack or flaming). This is why 'burst' weapons specifically state that they have an extra effect on a critical hit.

You're right about the charge, though. Since you're going to need to advance into combat at least once, a lance isn't a bad choice even if you only use it for the initial charge and then quickdraw something else.

obnoxious
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[Eldariel]

I was kind of thinking that, myself, but I think it helps account for critical damage/chance in weapon choices. I had hopes that someone who knew what they were doing would post a more accurate equation .

You can't ignore critical range and damage multipliers in weapon consideration completely, since it WILL factor in at some point. A weapon with a critical range of 20/x2 (against an AC of 0, yes) will do double damage roughly 5% of the time (though it won't always confirm so I guess that does indeed throw it off.) I included it because I was trying to look at average damage over a long period.

That's why I posted what I use; take percentage of the damage that's dealt as normal damage, percentage that's dealt as critical damage and add them up. It basically cuts 5% of the standard damage off from your calculations.

I don't think you need to take armor class into consideration unless you're also taking power attack into consideration, since it's going to have the same effect regardless of weapon damage.

The relevant difference is that critical confirmation varies; the weapons that rely more on critical hits (such as the Scythe or the Falchion) for their damage output are hurt more by higher crit confirmation difficulty, because it's going to cut into the critical hit frequency and the weapons that rely on criticals are most hurt by that.

So if one wants to account for criticals, one has to account for AC too. I mean, sure you could do 95%*standard + 5%*critical calculations (or well, X% dependent on critical range), but those favour critical-heavy weapons over what would happen in a game.

[Fitz]

ok stripping out the psychic warrior stuff
Lvl 2 fighter can get 3d8 (spirited charge) +18 (strength wielded 2 handed kontos style) +1d6 (powerful charge)
Or add 9 for full power attack.
None of this needs a crit.
As you say though you need other options as on foot its a pretty tame d8 reach weapon
Fitz

[Keld Denar]

Hmmm, no one has mentioned Unarmed Strike. Completely ignoring magical enhancements to the weapon, the Unarmed Strike and other natural attacks are some of the easiest damage types to scale up, as evident in most King of Smack builds. Who cares that you are only getting +1x str bonus and 1:1 power attack when you are swinging 64d6 hamfists!

[ericgrau]

Falchion. Same average damage as the scythe, but more consistent. More average damage than the greatsword after you count crits and the improved crit feat (or keen edge spell or scabbard of keen edges or etc.). No proficiency feat.

[Irreverent Fool]

Hmmm, no one has mentioned Unarmed Strike. Completely ignoring magical enhancements to the weapon, the Unarmed Strike and other natural attacks are some of the easiest damage types to scale up, as evident in most King of Smack builds. Who cares that you are only getting +1x str bonus and 1:1 power attack when you are swinging 64d6 hamfists!

You can't power attack with an unarmed strike, since it is considered a light weapon, even for monks.

Falchion. Same average damage as the scythe, but more consistent. More average damage than the greatsword after you count crits and the improved crit feat (or keen edge spell or scabbard of keen edges or etc.). No proficiency feat.

I have to second the falchion.

obnoxious
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[ZeroNumerous]

pretty much a non magical weapon. what's the best one you can get without going into abilities in terms of pure damage output.

Straight out damage? Fullblade. 3d6 at medium size.

[Irreverent Fool]

Straight out damage? Fullblade. 3d6 at medium size.

Doesn't that require exotic proficiency though?

obnoxious
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[Curmudgeon]

pretty much a non magical weapon. what's the best one you can get without going into abilities in terms of pure damage output.

If you really mean "without going into abilities", you have to remember that every weapon requires some sort of proficiency. The only weapons that every base class is proficient in are the club, dagger, and crossbow (light/heavy). So obviously the answer is the heavy crossbow at 1d10 damage.