Class level NPC's and CR question

[Choco]

I'd like some help clarifying CR in a certain situation, please bear with me:

Ok, so everyone knows that CR <#> represents a monster that would challenge a group of 4 lvl <#> PC's. Also, every character class an NPC or monster has seems to add/become 1 CR...

So a lvl 10 Paladin NPC is CR 10. I am assuming that the CR takes into account the various minions this Paladin would have, because I find it hard to believe that one lvl 10 Paladin can come close to challenging a group of lvl 10 adventurers alone, even if he IS highly intelligent. The players are almost always MORE intelligent (even if that is often an illusion... if you pull "intelligent" moves on them too much you are being cheap ). However, now I run into the problem of the minions each having THEIR OWN CR! So that means that the Paladin's groupies arent counted in his CR..

So I am kinda lost here, other than accommodating for some intelligence on the NPC's part, I cannot see how a single lvl 10 NPC of any character class (excluding casters at higher levels) can pose a challenge to a group of adventurers of the same level on their own.

Anyone know what is up with that? The Wizards playtesters must have came up with these numbers somehow, yet I cant seem to see how...

I am referring to D&D 3.5 here by the way.

[Saintjebus]

Assuming you are referring to DnD 3.5-

The CR system is not very good. Things like that happen all of the time. It mostly breaks down with player races being used as monsters. I do not know how playtesters missed that, but there it is.

[Choco]

Assuming you are referring to DnD 3.5-

The CR system is not very good. Things like that happen all of the time. It mostly breaks down with player races being used as monsters. I do not know how playtesters missed that, but there it is.

Ah, corrected in the original post, thx for that I keep forgetting to write the version. Guess I am just used to how these forums were BEFORE 4th ed came out...

Yeah I noticed CR isn't always on the money and I have had to eyeball it more often than not, but this one was just so far off it surprised me

[Frosty]

The Paladin would use up about 20% of your group's resources before he goes down. High saves means more spells expended (unless you stick to no-save just suck spells) and a decent HP pool and self-healing means slightly protracted fight.

I can see a properly optimized level 10 Paladin be a threat if he uses Spirited Charge and a flying mount (gained with Leadership of course). Can do some scary damage when combined with the Divine Might feat since it'd be tripled on a charge with a lance while mounted. Your casters would need to expend Fly spells to get your own non-archers up there or use spells like Earthbind to bring the mount down.

[Devils_Advocate]

A monster whose CR equals their level is supposed to cause a group of 4 PCs to use up about 20% of their daily resources, I think. It's up to you whether you call that "a challenge". It's definitely not supposed to be close to an even fight. Hopefully you were already aware of that.

If they kill a paladin and his mount, should the PCs get additional XP for killing the mount? Not really, if the mount didn't make the fight tougher than a typical monster of the paladin's CR. On the other hand, if they beat a druid, they should get separate XP for killing her animal companion, because druids are overpowered even without those suckers backing them up. In short, play this by ear.

As a general rule, though, minions summoned or created by someone using actions in battle shouldn't grant extra XP, because they're just part of the summoner fighting. But if the same creatures are present at the start of the fight, they probably do count, because they present their own challenge in addition to the summoner from the start. It's different if the bad guy has to spend actions to call his support in.

[Starbuck_II]

I'd like some help clarifying CR in a certain situation, please bear with me:

Ok, so everyone knows that CR <#> represents a monster that would challenge a group of 4 lvl <#> PC's. Also, every character class an NPC or monster has seems to add/become 1 CR...

So a lvl 10 Paladin NPC is CR 10. I am assuming that the CR takes into account the various minions this Paladin would have, because I find it hard to believe that one lvl 10 Paladin can come close to challenging a group of lvl 10 adventurers alone, even if he IS highly intelligent. The players are almost always MORE intelligent (even if that is often an illusion... if you pull "intelligent" moves on them too much you are being cheap ). However, now I run into the problem of the minions each having THEIR OWN CR! So that means that the Paladin's groupies arent counted in his CR..

So I am kinda lost here, other than accommodating for some intelligence on the NPC's part, I cannot see how a single lvl 10 NPC of any character class (excluding casters at higher levels) can pose a challenge to a group of adventurers of the same level on their own.

Anyone know what is up with that? The Wizards playtesters must have came up with these numbers somehow, yet I cant seem to see how...

I am referring to D&D 3.5 here by the way.

Is the Paladin supposed to be just a standard battle? Then use him either by himself or lower his level and add minions to raise ECL to 10. Don't forget he gets class features for free (mount).
A Mini-BBEG? Let him be level 10 but add some minions to raise ECL to 12-13. Don't forget he gets class features for free (mount).
A BBEG? Let him be level 10 (or higher) but add some minions to raise ECL to 14-15. Don't forget he gets class features for free (mount).

[Frosty]

How much a challenge he is really depends on your optimization of him. Be smart and play him smart and he'll be a threat.

[AslanCross]

The CR system is kind of messed up, since a Lv 10 paladin has the same CR as a juvenile Red Dragon.

In any case, even a well-built character can get nailed if he's alone. I always refer to what has happened in my experience. A party of 5 lv 6 characters against a well-built 11th level warblade.

The warblade took 3 hits and dropped from 90+ HP to 5 HP in 3 rounds. She'd have been killed if she weren't deliberately prepared for escape. The most significant disadvantage the boss has is action ratio. The PCs are simply able to do more every round. Even with the warblade's maneuvers, she wasn't able to harm them enough.

Now if the paladin has a lot of weak CR 1 minions (2nd level warriors are better than 1st-level fighters; while the fighters would get more feats, the warriors would get better saves and BAB) and probably one or two lieutenants (maybe a 6th level fighter and a cleric), then you've got a better, more challenging boss encounter.

Assuming a party of 4 10th level PCs, I recommend the following encounter:
-1 Paladin Lv 10
-1 Cleric Lv 6 and 1 Fighter Lv 6, or 1 Cleric Lv 8.
-8 Warriors (each Lv 2).

(Mounts, familiars and animal companions are never included in EL calculation. Give him a Dire Wolf or Dire Lion and we're talking a significantly more challenging encounter.)
The total encounter level is only about EL 12, which should be in the "difficult" range for 10th.