OK, seriously, what's this "Leaping Attack?"

[Frogwarrior]

So, I'm horribly confused. I've heard mention of getting lots of power in 3.5 doing some sort of "leaping attack" a la Belkar. How?? I don't recall anything remotely like this in the SRD, and I don't want to be missing out on the chance to score some srs dmg!

[olentu]

Assuming that they mean the leap attack feat it is in complete adventurer.

[Quietus]

So, I'm horribly confused. I've heard mention of getting lots of power in 3.5 doing some sort of "leaping attack" a la Belkar. How?? I don't recall anything remotely like this in the SRD, and I don't want to be missing out on the chance to score some srs dmg!

Leap Attack feat, from ... Complete Adventurer? Requires some base attack and like 5 or 8 ranks in Jump, gives you +100% power attack damage if you leap 10 feet forward on a charge. If you're using a one-handed weapon and do a leap attack, you get 2 damage for every 1 AB given up, or if you use a two-handed weapon, you get 3 damage for every 1 AB given up.

This is generally combined with Shock Trooper (Complete Warrior, requires ... Power Attack, Improved Bull Rush, and BAB +6?), letting you drop your AC instead of your attack bonus, so you keep full attack bonus, get 3x BAB to damage, but your AC goes into the negatives.

[KBF]

A rule of thumb is: If they are talking about something game breaking and you don't recognize it, it is probably not in the SRD.

Alternate rule of thumb is: It is probably not in the SRD.

[Kylarra]

Complete Adventurer feat, luckily for you, it's online.

[Kyeudo]

A rule of thumb is: If they are talking about something game breaking and you don't recognize it, it is probably not in the SRD.

Gate. Shapechange. Timestop. Forcecage+Cloudkill. I can go on, but I think you get the point.

[Hat-Trick]

Gate. Shapechange. Timestop. Forcecage+Cloudkill. I can go on, but I think you get the point.

But, most people know about those, even if they don't know they're broken.

[Tempest Fennac]

http://crystalkeep.com/d20/ and http://brilliantgameologists.com/boa...3&topic=1109.0 are both great for non-SRD stuff (Crystal Keep only details the first 2 levels of the PrCs it mentions sadly). Both Shock Trooper and Leap attack re featured on CK's Feats page.

[Mr.Moron]

But, most people know about those, even if they don't know they're broken.

Point is, Leap Attack is far from broken.

[Hat-Trick]

Didn't say that, I was mentioning on the well know SRD things someone else listed that WERE.

[Mr.Moron]

Didn't say that, I was mentioning on the well know SRD things someone else listed that WERE.

I didn't say you said it was broken. Your post was just a convenient one to bounce of off to highlight the point that it wasn't broken. Since it was a response to a response, about things outside core. Sorry for the confusion.

[daggaz]

A rule of thumb is: If they are talking about something game breaking and you don't recognize it, it is probably not in the SRD.

Alternate rule of thumb is: It is probably not in the SRD.

Except that leap attack is far far far from broken, unless you combine it with Shocktrooper and a couple of other feats (and Frenzied Berserker, Im looking at YOU!) for ultimate one shot wonder cheese. At which point your DM just massively ups important hps and as well starts jumping your party members with similiar tactics.

High powered game, the combo is a must as some form of ubercharging is essential. Low powered game, leap attack is cool but isnt going to drastically change things. In fact on its own, there are plenty of more optimized feats a meleer can take instead.

[Talic]

Correction. As erratad, Leap Attack increases power attack damage by 100%, and applies last.

So a normal power attacker (1 for 1) changes to (2 for 1). Now if he power attacks for 4, he gets +8 damage.

A Power attacker with a 2 handed weapon normally gets (2 for 1). Now it's (4 for 1). This is because it isn't a technical doubling. Now if he power attacks for 4, he gets +16 damage.

A level 10 Frenzied Berserker (Complete Warrior) with a two handed weapon gets (4 for 1). Now it's (8 for 1). Now, if he power attacks for 4, he gets +32 damage.

It really breaks with Shock Trooper, where you can apply the penalty to AC instead of Attack bonus. What's this mean? That frenzied berserker, above? Can power attack for 16, take a -16 to AC, attack at his Full BAB, and deal an extra 128 damage per hit. (Full attacks are possible with Psionic Lion's Charge, Rhino's Rush, or the Lion totem Barbarian's ACF (Complete Champion).

None of these are particularly optimized. A fully decked out ubercharger can get around (20 for 1) on a charge, and full attack. So that -16? is +320 damage per hit. Lion totem that with an unarmed strike off hand?
+320, +320, +320, +320
+160, +160, +160

Even if only the first attacks hit, and half of the second attacks hit (each round), you're looking at an average of +720 damage from power attack alone, every round. And such numbers turn DR into swiss cheese.

Yeah, your AC will be low. What's alive to hit you?

[ericgrau]

Gate. Shapechange. Timestop. Forcecage+Cloudkill. I can go on, but I think you get the point.

Does someone have to do this every single time someone says something remotely related to non-core brokenage? Or something else they have an opinion on? Last I checked repetition without a supporting argument is not a valid way to reason. To advertise, maybe, but not reason.

I suppose it'd be better if people weren't so OCD about making sure it gets said each and every time. Then it'd look more like a casual opinion and less like they're trying hard to convince others mostly by shear volume of words.

[ghost_warlock]

Correction. As erratad, Leap Attack increases power attack damage by 100%, and applies last.

So a normal power attacker (1 for 1) changes to (2 for 1). Now if he power attacks for 4, he gets +8 damage.

A Power attacker with a 2 handed weapon normally gets (2 for 1). Now it's (4 for 1). This is because it isn't a technical doubling. Now if he power attacks for 4, he gets +16 damage.

A level 10 Frenzied Berserker (Complete Warrior) with a two handed weapon gets (4 for 1). Now it's (8 for 1). Now, if he power attacks for 4, he gets +32 damage.

It really breaks with Shock Trooper, where you can apply the penalty to AC instead of Attack bonus. What's this mean? That frenzied berserker, above? Can power attack for 16, take a -16 to AC, attack at his Full BAB, and deal an extra 128 damage per hit. (Full attacks are possible with Psionic Lion's Charge, Rhino's Rush, or the Lion totem Barbarian's ACF (Complete Champion).

None of these are particularly optimized. A fully decked out ubercharger can get around (20 for 1) on a charge, and full attack. So that -16? is +320 damage per hit. Lion totem that with an unarmed strike off hand?
+320, +320, +320, +320
+160, +160, +160

Even if only the first attacks hit, and half of the second attacks hit (each round), you're looking at an average of +720 damage from power attack alone, every round. And such numbers turn DR into swiss cheese.

Yeah, your AC will be low. What's alive to hit you?

Is it just me, or does this math seem screwy...?

Power attack damage is 32. Increasing it by 100% yields 64, not 320.

[Gaiyamato]

He was talking about if you optimised you can get a 20x damage. So 16 x 20 = 320.

But a normal character won't get that much.

I wonder if all that is usable with Mithral Tornado??

[Eldariel]

Correction. As erratad, Leap Attack increases power attack damage by 100%, and applies last.

So a normal power attacker (1 for 1) changes to (2 for 1). Now if he power attacks for 4, he gets +8 damage.

A Power attacker with a 2 handed weapon normally gets (2 for 1). Now it's (4 for 1). This is because it isn't a technical doubling. Now if he power attacks for 4, he gets +16 damage.

A level 10 Frenzied Berserker (Complete Warrior) with a two handed weapon gets (4 for 1). Now it's (8 for 1). Now, if he power attacks for 4, he gets +32 damage.

This is wrong. Both refer to the "the normal damage from her use of the Power Attack feat", or x1/x2, therefore making it 6-for-1 with both, FB and Leap Attack. That said, 4-for-24 is still plenty good.

Is it just me, or does this math seem screwy...?

Power attack damage is 32. Increasing it by 100% yields 64, not 320.

He PAd for more; the first example was PA for 4, the second was PA for 16.

[ghost_warlock]

He was talking about if you optimised you can get a 20x damage. So 16 x 20 = 320.

But a normal character won't get that much.

I wonder if all that is usable with Mithral Tornado??

Ah, okay. But where in the Leap Attack errata does it say it applies last?

[Talic]

Leap attack is only available on a charge attack. So if Mithral tornado counts as a charge attack? Then yes. Otherwise, no.

Even a (8 for 1) power attacker, when power attacking for 16? Will get +128 for the main hand, and +64 for the off hand. The initial example I used was a power attack for 4, as an example of how quickly it scales.

Ah, okay. But where in the Leap Attack errata does it say it applies last?

Effects generally apply in the order that is most beneficial to the character performing the action/creating the effect.

This means, as a rule of thumb, that if someone hits someone with a fireball, and they have Vulnerability (+50% damage) and Resistance to Fire 20, they'd apply the fire resist to the damage first, and multiply the remaining damage. The mitigation applies in the order most beneficial to the person mitigating.

In the same way, when someone is applying effects to an attack, they apply in the order that provides the best result for the attack (unless the ability states otherwise).

Example of abilities that state otherwise? Empower and Maximize. It specifically states that the effects don't apply in a cumulative fashion. Each is taken seperately.

[Gaiyamato]

You would need to be able to make a full attack after a charge.
If I recall there is a feat that allows that. Then yes Mithral tornado is usable.

Now is there any way of leaping into the middle of a group of something..
A tiny creature with underfoot combat maybe?

Would that work?

The sprite leaps into the middle of a group of minotaurs and activates Mithral Tornado attacking all of them at the same time, giving up AC for PA (shock trooper) and using Leap attack and other nastiness, hits all of the Minotaurs for hundreds of points of damage.. slaying them all instantly.

:)

[Talic]

"Make a full attack when you charge" means just that.

It does not mean "use a full round action ability that attacks".

Maneuvers and the like do not qualify unless they specifically say that they're used on a charge, or considered a charge.

[Eldariel]

You can technically combine Battle Jump [Unapproachable East] and Leap Attack though to do "charges" basically anywhere even with maneuvers/special standard action attacks.

[Gaiyamato]

MITHRAL TORNADO
Iron Heart (Strike)
Level: Warblade 4
Prerequisite: Two Iron Heart
maneuvers
Initiation Action: 1 standard action
Range: Melee attack
Target: All adjacent opponents
Your weapon becomes a blur of motion as
you swing it in a tight arc over your head.
Once you build up enough speed, you explode
into a sweeping attack that chops into the
enemies around you.
When you initiate this strike, you make
a melee attack against every opponent
adjacent to you. Resolve each attack
separately. You gain a +2 bonus on each
of these attacks, which are otherwise
made at your highest attack bonus.

You can technically combine Battle Jump [Unapproachable East] and Leap Attack though to do "charges" basically anywhere even with maneuvers/special standard action attacks.

Awesome. :D

[Talic]

Not a very strong maneuver to use this with, TBH. useful against numbers, but numbers aren't very strong, typically. I'd personally go with something that lets you work better against a single foe. Splash damage + Lion Barbarian will already mean you decimate groups with nothing more than Cleave / Great Cleave... Plus, that works with reach. Mithril Tornado only works on opponents that are 5 feet away.

[Eldariel]

Not a very strong maneuver to use this with, TBH. useful against numbers, but numbers aren't very strong, typically. I'd personally go with something that lets you work better against a single foe. Splash damage + Lion Barbarian will already mean you decimate groups with nothing more than Cleave / Great Cleave... Plus, that works with reach. Mithril Tornado only works on opponents that are 5 feet away.

The good news is that Battle Jump can be combined with any maneuver so you have variety and options as much as you have maneuvers. Nightmare Blade is preeetty nice against a single foe with PA-returns.

[Gaiyamato]

Yes, I realise it isn't the strongest thing you could do.

But I have a Barbarian (whirling Frenzy)/Warblade/Fighter/Frenzied berserker in a game already.
All I need to get are the Shock Trooper, Leap Attack and Battlejump feats for a purely awesome scene to occur..

[Riffington]

Text of Leap Attack:

Leap Attack

You can combine a powerful charge and a mighty leap into one devastating attack.

Prerequisites: Jump 8 ranks, Power Attack.

Benefit: You can combine a jump with a charge against an opponent. If you cover at least 10 feet of horizontal distance with your jump, and you end your jump in a square from which you threaten your target, you deal +100% the normal bonus damage from your use of the Power Attack feat. If you use this tactic with a two-handed weapon, you instead triple the extra damage from Power Attack.

2handers are normally x2 the extra damage. With Leap attack, they are x3 the extra damage instead of x2.

[Sinfire Titan]

A rule of thumb is: If they are talking about something game breaking and you don't recognize it, it is probably not in the SRD.

Alternate rule of thumb is: It is probably not in the SRD.

Wanna bet? 70% of broken abilities are Core-only, and nothing a melee character can do is in that list (unless you think melee is broken, which is a bad idea).

Does someone have to do this every single time someone says something remotely related to non-core brokenage? Or something else they have an opinion on? Last I checked repetition without a supporting argument is not a valid way to reason. To advertise, maybe, but not reason.

I suppose it'd be better if people weren't so OCD about making sure it gets said each and every time. Then it'd look more like a casual opinion and less like they're trying hard to convince others mostly by shear volume of words.

It has more to do with the thought that someone thinks Leap Attack is brokenly overpowered. The fact that he called "Non-Core is usually broken" a rule of thumb proves he doesn't realize how broken Core-only can be.

[Gnomo]

Leap Attack is not broken... Shock Trooper: Heedless Charge is.

[Sinfire Titan]

Leap Attack is not broken... Shock Trooper: Heedless Charge is.

No, just good. It sucks when you realize you can't charge through a Solid Fog/Grease spell. Hell, the number of ways to make Shock Trooper suck is astounding. A Knight 3/PsiWar 1 with a Spiked Chain, Expansion, and Practiced Manifester beats a Charger with Shock Trooper hands down.