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    Default [4e] Permanent Companions

    What Is thread about?
    The Primary purpose of this thread is to incorporate NPC companions that the players "Own" into the game. This is a first draft.

    Keeping it Balanced
    In order to actually balance out having multiple companions, each type of companion has an associated cost. Hirelings may cost money, while Followers may be Heroic level minions.

    Hirelings
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    (Price Concept: Money)
    A Staple of D&D is the idea of a Hireling, someone you pay to adventure with you. In game rule terms, a Hireling is a monster or NPC with a given level. Hirelings normally do not improve (Though you can pay to "Level up" them, see below).

    Hirelings are assumed here to stay with a group for 1 full month, though the DM may always increase the length. A Hireling may not exceed the average party level.

    Hiring a Hireling: Hireling's price per month is equal to a magic item of their level. So a Level 5 Hireling costs 1000 gp a month.

    Leveling a Hireling: In addition, you can level up a hireling. When you have at least a day of downtime, you may pay the difference in cost of your hirelings current level with their new level (Still cannot exceed the average party level). For example, you can level a Level 5 Hireling to Level 6 for 800 gp.


    Leadership
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    (Price Concept: Feat, Minions, Daily Power Exchange)
    Leadership (Heroic)
    Prerequisites: Cha 15, Level 6+.
    Benefit: You gain a Cohort (See Cohort, below). In addition, you gain Followers (See Followers, Below) based off your Leadership score (Charisma + 1/2 Level). In Heroic, your Leadership Score may not exceed 11. In Paragon, it may not exceed 18. In Epic, it may not exceed 25.

    Followers by Leadership Score
    {table=head]Score|Level 1|2|3|4|5|6|7|8|9|10
    5|2|1|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-
    6|3|2|1|-|-|-|-|-|-|-
    7|4|3|2|1|-|-|-|-|-|-
    8|5|4|3|2|1|-|-|-|-|-
    9|6|5|4|3|2|1|-|-|-|-
    10|7|6|5|4|3|2|1|-|-|-
    11|8|7|6|5|4|3|2|1|-|-
    12|10|9|8|7|6|5|4|2|1|-
    13|12|11|10|9|8|7|6|4|2|1
    14|14|13|12|11|10|9|8|6|3|2
    15|16|15|14|13|12|11|10|8|4|3
    16|18|17|16|15|14|13|12|10|5|4
    17|20|19|18|17|16|15|14|12|6|5
    18|22|21|20|19|18|17|16|14|7|6
    19|25|24|23|22|21|20|19|17|9|8
    20|28|27|26|25|24|23|22|20|11|10
    21|31|30|29|28|27|26|25|23|13|12
    22|34|33|32|31|30|29|28|26|15|14
    23|37|36|35|34|33|32|31|29|17|16
    24|40|39|38|37|36|35|34|32|19|18
    25|43|42|41|40|39|38|37|35|21|20[/table]

    Cohorts
    Cohorts are NPCs of your level -2. They are created through standard NPC rules with an exception. Cohorts can not usually use their daily attack powers, instead requiring the Cohort's Leader to expend a daily attack power to allow the Cohort to use it's own. The Cohort Levels at the same time as its leader. When a Cohort dies, you will receive another one if you choose not to Raise Dead the current one. A new Cohort usually presents itself within 24 hours.
    Edit: A Cohort may only use any given Class feature 1/encounter, or however often they can usually use it, whichever causes it to be used less often.

    Followers
    Followers are mechanically Heroic minions. The player may designate any number of their followers to be any specific role of minion (EG: Minion Artillery, Minion Brute), But its usually best to have Followers stay out of combat, and act as either a background force, or be working on another task. When followers die, it may take a long time to attract more. When followers commonly die, the DM may decide to subtract 2 from your leadership score.


    Planar Binding
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    (Price Concept: Specific Task)
    Planar Binding
    You bind a creature of another plane in a summoning circle, and task it to your bidding.
    Level: 10
    Category: Binding
    Time: 10 Hours.
    Duration: Until Task ends (See text).
    Component Cost: 50 gp/level for Heroic creatures, 500 gp/level for Paragon creatures, 5000 gp/level for Epic Creatures.
    Market Price: 1,000 gp
    Key Skill: Arcana (Fey, and Elemental Creatures), Religion (Immortal Creatures)

    You prepare a circle of binding, in which you summon a creature. When preforming this ritual, you may choose what level of creature your summoning, and what type (To the extent of choosing to summon a Devil, but not a specific one, for instance) of creature your summoning. If you know a creatures truename, you may make an Arcana or Religion check (Based on Creature type, as above, DC 10+Creature's level) to summon that specific creature. A creature in the binding circle cannot be injured, and cannot attack.

    Once the creature is summoned, you can either Negotiate with it (Diplomacy Check, use Page 42 for DCs), or you could try to forcefully bind it (Arcana or Religion check, use page 42 for DCs). This counts as a skill challenge, of five successes before two failures. You can, at any time, choose to stop the skill challenge and take the effect listed in the chart below. Your Score on the Skill Challenge is (Success-Failures)
    {table=head]Score|Effect
    5|The Creature will follow the task.
    4|The Creature will follow the task, but you must follow an easy demand it makes (You have to let it get beauty sleep, You must not attack it.)
    3|The Creature will follow the task, but you must follow a moderate demand it makes (You have to be polite to it, Giving a small amount of treasure)
    2|The Creature will follow the task, but you must follow a difficult demand it makes (Giving a moderate amount of treasure, Giving up Healing Surges)
    1|The Creature will follow the task, but you must follow a great demand it makes (giving it large amounts of treasure, giving it a soul of an innoncent, etc.)
    0 or less|The creature escapes the Binding, the ritual fails.[/table]
    For the purposes of this ritual a task can be anything from "Defend this location for 500 years" to "Give us information on the Ashen Crown.". If you ask for information, and the summoned creature cannot provide it, it simply states it does not know and dissapears, causing the ritual to be wasted. Once the task is choosen the circle of binding dissapears, and the creature stays on this plane until the task is complete.

    If the Bound creature is ever reduced to 0 hp or fewer, they immediately return to their home plane, bloodied. You may not use this ritual to bind something and make it agree to being imprisoned or killed.


    Animated Minions
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    (Price Concept: Money, Maximum, Ritual, Stupid)
    A Staple of D&D is that of a Necromancer, who has a posse of skeletons and zombies. In order to replicate this, Characters may learn the following Ritual

    Animate Corpse
    You summon back the anima of the corpse in front of you, allowing you to command the walking Corpse.

    Level: 5
    Category: Binding
    Time: 10 Minutes
    Duration: Permanent
    Component Cost: Special (See text)
    Market Price: 300 gp
    Key Skill: Religion

    You target a corpse within in 5 squares. This corpse may not be from a creature whose level exceeds your own +2. You animate it into an undead, applying one of the four templates below. You can control a number of levels of undead equal to four times your level. For the purposes of controlling undead, Solo Creatures count as 2 level higher then they are, and elite count as a single level higher. Minons Count as 1/5th their level, minimum one. So a level 30 minion counts as 6 Levels. The component cost of this ritual depends on the template chosen, as detailed below:
    {table=head]Template|Component Cost|End Role Modifer
    Skeleton|Black Onyx worth as much as an item of the Skeleton's Level|Same
    Zombie|Black Onyx worth as much as an item of the Zombies's Level|Same
    Decrepit Skeleton|Black Onyx worth as much as 1/5th the cost of an item of the Skeleton's Level|Minion
    Zombie Rotter|Black Onyx worth as much as 1/5th the cost of an item of the Zombies's Level|Minion[/table]
    You can not use this ritual on an Immortal, Elemental, or Undead creature.

    Templates
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    The Templates Below are different then standard templates. They do not make a creature Elite, and they do not give Hit points, though they may cause a creature to change their hit points.



    Decrepit Skeleton............Minion Solider
    (Undead)............................XP Minion
    Senses Darkvision
    Defenses Level+16 AC. Level +12 Fort, Level +12 Ref, Level +12 Will (Adjust for Ability scores as standard).
    Hit Points 1; a Missed attack never damages a minion
    Immune Disease, Poison; Resist 5 Necrotic/Tier; Vulnerable 5 Radiant
    Speeds Lose Fly Speeds, leave others the same.

    Powers
    Lose all non-basic attacks. The basic attacks now mark the target until the end of your next turn. The Basic Attacks always deal average damage. The Attack Bonuses of all powers remaining is Level +7 if against AC, Level +5 if against other defenses.
    Gain the following power:
    Skeletal Swarm
    When attacking a marked target, a Decrepit Skeleton gains a +1 bonus to hit for each ally adjacent to the target.

    Alignment becomes Unaligned.
    Languages Lose all, though it still understands its masters commands.
    Ability Scores Intelligence and Charisma are reduced to 3.



    Skeleton............Solider
    (Undead)............XP Normal
    Senses Darkvision
    Defenses Level+16 AC. Level +12 Fort, Level +12 Ref, Level +12 Will (Adjust for Ability scores as standard).
    Hit Points (Level+1)*8+Constitution Score. Elites and Solos get bonus HP as normal.
    Immune Disease, Poison; Resist 10 Necrotic/Tier; Vulnerable 5 Radiant
    Speeds Lose Fly Speeds, leave others the same.

    Powers
    Lose all non-basic attacks. If Elite, choose any one other power to keep. If Solo, choose two other powers to keep. The creatures basic attacks now mark the target until the end of their next turn. The Attack Bonuses of all powers remaining is Level +7 if against AC, Level +5 if against other defenses.
    Gain the following power:
    Speed of the Dead
    When making an Opportunity attack, the Skeleton gains +2 bonus to the attack roll and deals an extra 1d6 damage.

    Alignment becomes Unaligned.
    Languages Lose all, though it still understands its masters commands.
    Ability Scores Intelligence and Charisma are reduced to 3.



    Zombie............Brute
    (Undead)............XP Normal
    Senses Darkvision
    Aura Rotting Stench aura 1: Living enemies in the aura take a -2 penalty to attack rolls. Multiple Rotting Stench auras do not stack.
    Defenses Level+12 AC. Level +12 Fort, Level +12 Ref, Level +12 Will (Adjust for Ability scores as standard).
    Hit Points (Level+1)*10+Constitution Score. Elites and Solos get bonus HP as normal
    Immune Disease, Poison; Resist 10 Necrotic/Tier; Vulnerable 5 Radiant

    Powers
    Lose all non-basic attacks. If Elite, choose any one other power to keep. If Solo, choose two other powers to keep. Increase the damage of all powers by 1 die. The Attack Bonuses of all powers remaining is Level +3 if against AC, Level +1 if against other defenses.
    Gain the following power:
    Zombie Weakness
    Any Critical hit to the zombie reduces it to 0 hit points instantly.

    Alignment becomes Unaligned.
    Languages Lose all, though it still understands its masters commands.
    Ability Scores Intelligence and Charisma are reduced to 3.



    Zombie Rotter............Minion Brute
    (Undead)............XP Minion
    Senses Darkvision
    Aura Rotting Stench aura 1: Living enemies in the aura take a -2 penalty to attack rolls. Multiple Rotting Stench auras do not stack.
    Defenses Level+12 AC. Level +12 Fort, Level +12 Ref, Level +12 Will (Adjust for Ability scores as standard).
    Hit Points 1; a missed attack never damages a minion.
    Immune Disease, Poison; Resist 10 Necrotic/Tier; Vulnerable 5 Radiant

    Powers
    Lose all non-basic attacks. Increase the damage of all powers by 1 die, and then take the average damage. This is the damage the power deals. The Attack Bonuses of all powers remaining is Level +3 if against AC, Level +1 if against other defenses.

    Alignment becomes Unaligned.
    Languages Lose all, though it still understands its masters commands.
    Ability Scores Intelligence and Charisma are reduced to 3.


    Thrallherd
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    (Price Concept: Paragon Path)
    <Insert Sucky Flavor Quote Here

    Prerequiste: Psion class, Telepath build, must not of taken Leadership.

    Your mind starts drawing others towards it, sending out psionic calls that kindred spirits hear and feel a need to come and assist you. You may be oblivious of this subconcisious connection, or you may know of it and have to choose whether to embrace it, or feel guilty of your power.

    Thrallherd Path Features
    Thrall and Believers (11th level): This feature acts as the leadership feat, except your cohort (Called a thrall) has a maximum level of your level -1, and your followers are called Believers. In addition, your score cannot decrease for Believer death, and you add your full level to your score.

    Herding Action (11th level): When you spend an action point, in addition to its normal effects, your Thrall may take an extra action, and any Believers in the battle may shift 1.

    Twofold Master (16th level): You gain a second a Thrall, who has a maximum level of your level -2. Both Thralls gain the bonus from Herding Action, and when you expend a daily so a Thrall can use their own, both Thralls may use their dailies.

    Thrallherd Disciples

    Catapsi........Thrallherd Attack 11
    You send a blast of psionic noise into your foes, allowing your allies to strike.
    Encounter <> Psionic, Implement, Psychic
    Standard Action.........Area burst 2 in 10
    Target: Each enemy in burst.
    Attack: Intelligence vs Will
    Hit: 2d8+Intelligence modifier psychic damage.
    Effect: All allies in the burst gain a bonus to hit equal to your charisma modifier.


    Thieving Mindlink........Thrallherd Utility 12.
    You reach into your Thrall's mind and take their power
    Encounter <> Psionic
    Minor Action......Close Burst 5
    Target: Thrall in burst
    Effect: Choose a power that your Thrall knows but has not expended yet. They expend that power, and for the rest of the encounter you may use that power (Encounters and dailies do not become at wills, you may only use them once in the encounter). You use your or your thralls attack bonus, whatever is better. Use your Thralls damage bonus and effect numbers. In addition, if your Thrall has Power Points, you may steal 2 pp.

    Supreme Domination........Thrallherd Attack 20
    You focus your power on the unconciousous signals that call others to you, causing it to echo in the minds of everyone near you.
    Daily <> Psionic, Implement
    Standard Action.........Close Burst 3
    Target: Each enemy in burst
    Attack: Intelligence vs Will
    Hit: The Target is Dominated (Save ends)
    Miss: The Target is Dominated until the end of your next turn.


    Constructs
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    (Price Concept: Ritually Created, Money, Maintenance)
    Create Construct
    Your residium forms into the iron form of a Iron Golem

    Level: 7
    Category: Creation
    Time: 10 Hours
    Duration: Permanent
    Component Cost: Special
    Market Price: 500 gp
    Key Skill: Arcana (No Check)

    You use residium to create a construct. The Component cost of this ritual is based on an item of the constructs level. You cannot create a construct with a level higher then yours (For the purposes of this effect, count an Elite construct as being three levels higher then it is, and a solo five levels higher then it is).

    Repairing Constructs
    Constructs do not repair naturally. Repairing a construct requires an Arcana check, which allows it to spend a HS.
    If a construct is reduced to 0 HP, you may spend an hour making an Arcana check, and spending materials equal to 1/5th its cost to bring it back to bloodied hit points.
    Last edited by Gralamin; 2009-07-17 at 01:55 PM.

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Dwarf in the Playground
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    Default Re: [4e] Permanent Companions

    Way too broken. 4e has an economy of actions, in that companions--familiars, beasts, summons, etc--need to use your actions to act.

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    Default Re: [4e] Permanent Companions

    Quote Originally Posted by Apalala View Post
    Way too broken. 4e has an economy of actions, in that companions--familiars, beasts, summons, etc--need to use your actions to act.
    Not necessarily. I could see using this in a 3-4 person group; where Team Monster has four standards (or two elites) and four minions, Team PC could pick up a bunch of followers to augment their 4 PCs. They'd die really quickly and couldn't all be taken on most adventures, so you'd most likely take 4-8 with you at any given time.
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    You can just call me Dice; that's how I roll.


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    Quote Originally Posted by abadguy View Post
    Darn you PoDL for making me care about a bunch of NPC Commoners!
    Quote Originally Posted by Chambers View Post
    I'm pretty sure turning Waterdeep into a sheet of glass wasn't the best win condition for that fight. We lived though!
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    Default Re: [4e] Permanent Companions

    Quote Originally Posted by Apalala View Post
    Way too broken. 4e has an economy of actions, in that companions--familiars, beasts, summons, etc--need to use your actions to act.
    Quote Originally Posted by PairO'Dice Lost View Post
    Not necessarily. I could see using this in a 3-4 person group; where Team Monster has four standards (or two elites) and four minions, Team PC could pick up a bunch of followers to augment their 4 PCs. They'd die really quickly and couldn't all be taken on most adventures, so you'd most likely take 4-8 with you at any given time.
    As Pair O Dice states, it might be less broken then it appears, I admit this isn't playtested yet, but from some playtesting of similar things I've done (Class that makes minions, some summoning variants), I don't think these would be too bad. Not only that, everything but the Cohort and Followers takes out a big chunk of your wealth (With Constructs being the most forgiving of being destroyed).

    Add in the fact that in epic, death is common, and none of these would have a way of returning from the dead without player intervenetion, and a lot of it is less powerful then it initially appears.

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    Default Re: [4e] Permanent Companions

    Take the thrallherd for example, since it's easily the biggest offender.

    You add 2 npcs to the party. This means the DM is going to need to add more monsters to an encounter to make it balanced.

    YOU ARE ADDING MORE MONSTERS TO AN ENCOUNTER TO MAKE IT BALANCED!

    When you hit that point, you should realize something is up.

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    Default Re: [4e] Permanent Companions

    Quote Originally Posted by Apalala View Post
    Take the thrallherd for example, since it's easily the biggest offender.

    You add 2 npcs to the party. This means the DM is going to need to add more monsters to an encounter to make it balanced.

    YOU ARE ADDING MORE MONSTERS TO AN ENCOUNTER TO MAKE IT BALANCED!

    When you hit that point, you should realize something is up.
    Two NPCs who can't use dailies without you using an action point. Also, since PCs are high-damage low-HP and monsters are low-damage high-HP, the NPCs will contribute negligibly to combat except for flanking and such, ensuring that the monsters will go after the PCs.
    Better to DM in Baator than play in Celestia
    You can just call me Dice; that's how I roll.


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    Quote Originally Posted by abadguy View Post
    Darn you PoDL for making me care about a bunch of NPC Commoners!
    Quote Originally Posted by Chambers View Post
    I'm pretty sure turning Waterdeep into a sheet of glass wasn't the best win condition for that fight. We lived though!
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    Quote Originally Posted by PairO'DiceLost View Post
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    Default Re: [4e] Permanent Companions

    Yeah, except that NPCs use different rules for creation than monsters. An npc Fighter's At-Wills and Encounter powers are going to do just as much damage as a PC fighters, his defenses are going to be just as good, and he can mark enemies with each attack.

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    Default Re: [4e] Permanent Companions

    Quote Originally Posted by Apalala View Post
    Yeah, except that NPCs use different rules for creation than monsters. An npc Fighter's At-Wills and Encounter powers are going to do just as much damage as a PC fighters, his defenses are going to be just as good, and he can mark enemies with each attack.
    Yeah, well, having NPCs being better than monsters or PCs is the price you pay for not keeping them on the same system.

    More seriously, there's no reason that you would have to use existing NPC templates for followers and cohorts, so that aspect of cohorts could be changed--NPC warlords and generals get the NPC fighter template, but if someone's that good at fighting he probably wouldn't be following someone else so close to his level in the first place. I'd suggest either using humanoids from the MM without the templates, or simply making the cohorts much lower level, say 6-8 levels; lack of skill or lack of experience are good reasons to follow someone else.
    Better to DM in Baator than play in Celestia
    You can just call me Dice; that's how I roll.


    Spoiler: Sig of Holding
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    Quote Originally Posted by abadguy View Post
    Darn you PoDL for making me care about a bunch of NPC Commoners!
    Quote Originally Posted by Chambers View Post
    I'm pretty sure turning Waterdeep into a sheet of glass wasn't the best win condition for that fight. We lived though!
    Quote Originally Posted by MaxiDuRaritry View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by PairO'DiceLost View Post
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    Default Re: [4e] Permanent Companions

    Quote Originally Posted by Apalala View Post
    Take the thrallherd for example, since it's easily the biggest offender.

    You add 2 npcs to the party. This means the DM is going to need to add more monsters to an encounter to make it balanced.

    YOU ARE ADDING MORE MONSTERS TO AN ENCOUNTER TO MAKE IT BALANCED!

    When you hit that point, you should realize something is up.
    Strawman. I never said the DM should add more monsters to an encounter to make it balanced.

    Quote Originally Posted by Apalala View Post
    Yeah, except that NPCs use different rules for creation than monsters. An npc Fighter's At-Wills and Encounter powers are going to do just as much damage as a PC fighters, his defenses are going to be just as good, and he can mark enemies with each attack.
    Quote Originally Posted by PairO'Dice Lost View Post
    Yeah, well, having NPCs being better than monsters or PCs is the price you pay for not keeping them on the same system.

    More seriously, there's no reason that you would have to use existing NPC templates for followers and cohorts, so that aspect of cohorts could be changed--NPC warlords and generals get the NPC fighter template, but if someone's that good at fighting he probably wouldn't be following someone else so close to his level in the first place. I'd suggest either using humanoids from the MM without the templates, or simply making the cohorts much lower level, say 6-8 levels; lack of skill or lack of experience are good reasons to follow someone else.
    This is another possible way. Honestly, The reason I have it as it is, is:
    A) It meant I didn't have to create more templates and
    B) It follows 3.5s way of doing it, which a good amount of players are familiar with, reducing the time to learn how it works.

    I suppose, as a half way change, I can make it so they can only use any given class feature once per encounter, at maximum.

    Edit: In addition, These have a full host of disadvantages:
    One HS per tier.
    No Feats
    No Paragon Path
    No Epic Destiny
    No AP
    No Saving Throw bonuses.
    Cohorts really aren't all that durable.
    Last edited by Gralamin; 2009-07-17 at 02:36 PM.

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    Default Re: [4e] Permanent Companions

    Am I the only one who thought of Firefly when I saw the word "Companion" in the thread title?
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    Default Re: [4e] Permanent Companions

    Leadership mechanics are not good. The game is not designed for even the possibility of heroic-level combatants in an epic fight.

    Elsewhere... For the most part, the above seems to completely throw balance out the window. If you have a group of 4 PCs, and say "adding more allies to the PCs is OK, because the bad guys are balanced for 6 to 7 PCs", then what that tells you is that these abilities are so strong they can make up for entire lost PCs if used in sufficient numbers.

    If you don't want balance, then this kind of thing should be dealt with by DM fiat, not by frankly abusable mechanics.

    If you do want balance, one way you could approach something like this is to look at some of the existing summoning mechanics.

    Usually these are daily powers that summon a creature, who often has actions it can do 'cheaply' (like for minor actions).

    Now, real hirelings will be there every encounter. So... find a level where an encounter power lines up with the power of a low level daily power, and imagine adding a hireling with the power of that daily summon as a hireling, in exchange for an encounter power of that level.

    As an example, daily level 1 powers are about 3[W] plus special. This lines up with roughly level 17 or so encounter powers, give or take.

    So a hireling with the power of a daily level 1 summon would be 'worth' swapping a level 17 encounter power for.

    You could see how this could work. You build a Leadership multiclass feat chain that lets you swap powers for various types of ally.

    You could have this lead into a paragon path which provides you with even more such allies. All of them balanced by the lost powers and opportunities that the character gives up.

    Extremely low level allies may best be represented as either minions of a level close to the PCs, and/or a swarm that is a normal monster (or even a swarm that is a minion!) in combat, rather than as a collection of heroic-tier allies for a paragon/epic character.

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    Default Re: [4e] Permanent Companions

    Hirelings in 4E would work if they were minions. Once given an hp value, they throw the balance of combat waaay off and have to be counted towards the xp value of an encounter.

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    Default Re: [4e] Permanent Companions

    Quote Originally Posted by jmbrown View Post
    Hirelings in 4E would work if they were minions. Once given an hp value, they throw the balance of combat waaay off and have to be counted towards the xp value of an encounter.
    I'm honestly not to sure of this. I mean, you can basically get a mount for the item price, why not a hireling? The Differences in using a mount and having a full automated NPC may be significant enough to raise their price a bit, but other then that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Yakk View Post
    Leadership mechanics are not good. The game is not designed for even the possibility of heroic-level combatants in an epic fight.
    I honestly don't intend for the followers to be in combat, as I noted. They should be doing other things, providing services for the pcs, etc.

    Elsewhere... For the most part, the above seems to completely throw balance out the window. If you have a group of 4 PCs, and say "adding more allies to the PCs is OK, because the bad guys are balanced for 6 to 7 PCs", then what that tells you is that these abilities are so strong they can make up for entire lost PCs if used in sufficient numbers.

    If you don't want balance, then this kind of thing should be dealt with by DM fiat, not by frankly abusable mechanics.

    If you do want balance, one way you could approach something like this is to look at some of the existing summoning mechanics.

    Usually these are daily powers that summon a creature, who often has actions it can do 'cheaply' (like for minor actions).

    Now, real hirelings will be there every encounter. So... find a level where an encounter power lines up with the power of a low level daily power, and imagine adding a hireling with the power of that daily summon as a hireling, in exchange for an encounter power of that level.
    An Interesting approach, but at the same time, it doesn't add in any real diversity to the group. Obviously, these are overall variant rules, and I don't mind if they are a bit stronger, but I honestly think there is a large overvaluement of what these companions can do. Most of this is, however, based on Gut feeling, and playing experiences with other things I've messed around with it.

    As an example, daily level 1 powers are about 3[W] plus special. This lines up with roughly level 17 or so encounter powers, give or take.

    So a hireling with the power of a daily level 1 summon would be 'worth' swapping a level 17 encounter power for.

    You could see how this could work. You build a Leadership multiclass feat chain that lets you swap powers for various types of ally.
    I really like this idea, I might try to rebuild it as this.

    You could have this lead into a paragon path which provides you with even more such allies. All of them balanced by the lost powers and opportunities that the character gives up.

    Extremely low level allies may best be represented as either minions of a level close to the PCs, and/or a swarm that is a normal monster (or even a swarm that is a minion!) in combat, rather than as a collection of heroic-tier allies for a paragon/epic character.
    Very interesting points, I'll think about changing some of this.

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    Default Re: [4e] Permanent Companions

    Quote Originally Posted by CarpeGuitarrem View Post
    Am I the only one who thought of Firefly when I saw the word "Companion" in the thread title?
    Well, your avatar and sig imply you're the most likely to think of it, but I did have a few interesting implications cross my mind.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gralamin
    If you do want balance, one way you could approach something like this is to look at some of the existing summoning mechanics.
    You know, I hate to say it, but I think it really shows a lack of imagination when people say "This is way too different/overpowered/etc., make it pretty much exactly like an existing power with a few minor changes."

    Let's say you have a dozen hirelings. They cost the same as a magic item of your level, and you have limited wealth, so you can't buy all that many of them. A dozen hirelings aren't going to be of great use in combat, so you'd probably only have 3 or 4 on any one mission. Even if you had all 12 of them, a few artillery monsters would take them out handily, thus wasting nonrenewable resources, thus eliminating the only real problematic use of them in combat (kamikaze soldiers and/or massed volleys).

    Yes, they can block areas and such, but the cost is prohibitive enough that you wouldn't have hirelings anywhere near your level, so as mentioned throwing them at monsters would inconvenience them at best. You could use them for skills and such, but their modifiers wouldn't be any better than the PCs'. You could use them as contacts, but then you're paying for nothing. All in all, I don't see why the proposed hireling system should be reduced to the equivalent of yet another encounter power.
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    Default Re: [4e] Permanent Companions

    A party of 5 could afford two "even-level" hirelings for the cost of gold.

    Other than their shortage of healing surges, they are quite decent at combat. Boosting the size of a party of 5 by 40% has a huge impact. And the above can be done for less than the price of losing a +1 modifier off of their equipment.

    They do ~10% less damage and take ~10% more damage, and in exchange have 40% more bodies. The trade-off is a no-brainer.

    Just don't pick tank-heavy roles, or have an artificer to pool healing surges.

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    Default Re: [4e] Permanent Companions

    I'm honestly not to sure of this. I mean, you can basically get a mount for the item price, why not a hireling? The Differences in using a mount and having a full automated NPC may be significant enough to raise their price a bit, but other then that.
    Mounts use your actions when riding them. I can't say the same for all DM's, but in my games when a character dismounts I rule that the mount either runs away (simple mounts not trained for combat like horses) or I automatically take control of it. Since most mounts aren't intelligent, they aren't going to be fighting for you. They'll defend themselves, but unintelligent animals generally don't understand complex combat tactics.

    Hirelings could work as regular monsters, but the DMG suggests that all additional NPC's in combat should be counted towards the xp limit of encounters. 5 PCs and a level 1 hireling would require a 600xp encounter and so on.

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    Default Re: [4e] Permanent Companions

    I admit I am very interested in where this thread goes, because I'm homebrewing a 4E Modern game, and one of my classes is going to be a Personality class (based very loosely on the Charismatic hero from d20 Modern).

    One thought for the Personality class is that they function very similar to a Mastermind in City of Heroes - they aren't that powerful in and of themselves, but they have an entourage of NPC allies who do their fighting.

    I'm having some serious trouble balancing it, though, so hopefully I'll get some good feedback here. I was thinking I'd base it roughly off the pet-using Ranger variant in Martial Power, but I'm stil very much in the rough planning stage on that one.

    [shameless plug]My 4E Modern is very quickly reaching the Alpha feedback stage! Look forward to reading about it in a thread near you! Tell your friends.[/shameless plug]
    Last edited by Talyn; 2009-07-17 at 06:38 PM.
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    Default Re: [4e] Permanent Companions

    Quote Originally Posted by Talyn View Post
    I admit I am very interested in where this thread goes, because I'm homebrewing a 4E Modern game, and one of my classes is going to be a Personality class (based very loosely on the Charismatic hero from d20 Modern).

    One thought for the Personality class is that they function very similar to a Mastermind in City of Heroes - they aren't that powerful in and of themselves, but they have an entourage of NPC allies who do their fighting.

    I'm having some serious trouble balancing it, though, so hopefully I'll get some good feedback here. I was thinking I'd base it roughly off the pet-using Ranger variant in Martial Power, but I'm stil very much in the rough planning stage on that one.

    [shameless plug]My 4E Modern is very quickly reaching the Alpha feedback stage! Look forward to reading about it in a thread near you! Tell your friends.[/shameless plug]
    Sounds interesting. We'll see where this thread goes, and if nothing else, we seem to be in agreement that in a smaller group they allow you to fight as if you had a party of 5 or 6.

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