Gesalt v. Normal

[GreatWyrmGold]

Is there any way to balence gesalt characters with normal ones?

[Dogmantra]

Full spellcaster single-classed vs. Gestalt everything else would be reasonably balanced at mid levels.

[only1doug]

Is there any way to balence gesalt characters with normal ones?

Nope, Gestalt are not intended to balance with normal and I can't see a way to overcome the imbalance.

(I'm sure someone will say let lower tier classes gestalt and keep upper tier normal but I balancing that would be too tricky for my liking)

[Vortling]

This thread is talking about the D&D 3.5 class tiers but gives a good approximation of gestalt to non-gestalt balance.

[AngelOmnipotent]

Unless you're going all out to make a Gestalt build overly broken with Cheese, it's a good way for Melee-based characters to be on par with Spellcasters without ToB handy.

Sure, you get a ton of extra things, but at the same time you still have to remember while you have the good sides of everything, you still only have the HP of a non-gestalt character, and only have one standard action per round.

[Eldariel]

You can use the homebrewed multiclass-variant that hovered around the forums at some point á la AD&D multiclassing; you put XP into both Gestalt-classes separately and advance in levels in accordance. In other words, you take Gestalt-levels, but slower than usual. It should work out pretty well.

[shadow_archmagi]

You can use the homebrewed multiclass-variant that hovered around the forums at some point á la AD&D multiclassing; you put XP into both Gestalt-classes separately and advance in levels in accordance. In other words, you take Gestalt-levels, but slower than usual. It should work out pretty well.

Half the levelling speed would be balanced by the fact that as CR increases the XP increases; as well as by the bonus XP awarded by the disparity between them and the rest of the party.

Interesting.

[Sinfire Titan]

I've run encounters where the enemies were Gestalt and the PCs weren't without telling the players. Oddly, the only difference is the options. The enemy ended up being on-par with the CR I gave it.


It thrashed one of the players before they dropped it, so it did its job.

[GreatWyrmGold]

This thread is talking about the D&D 3.5 class tiers but gives a good approximation of gestalt to non-gestalt balance.

Huh? Mind being more specific/realising I play 3.5 D&D?

[kamikasei]

Huh? Mind being more specific/realising I play 3.5 D&D?

The entire thing is about 3.5. Search on the page for "Gestalt" (it's in the second post). The poster discusses letting some classes gestalt with some others, depending on how powerful the classes are on their own.

[GreatWyrmGold]

The entire thing is about 3.5. Search on the page for "Gestalt" (it's in the second post). The poster discusses letting some classes gestalt with some others, depending on how powerful the classes are on their own.

(sigh) He was implying I didn't play D&D (at least that's how I read it). After a bit of thought, though, the relevance of the thing became apparent.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Option #2: Partial Gestalt. Tier 1s and 2s are normal. Tier 3s and 4s may gestalt their levels with an NPC class of their choice (Adept, Expert, Commoner, or Warrior). Tier 5s and 6s may gestalt their levels with any other Tier 5 or 6 class of their choice, or Adepts. Result? Again, a healthy power boost for the low Tiers. Suddenly the Rogues can have full BAB and lots of hitpoints, and the Monks can have Fighter powers too. Very handy. Plus, multiclassing works... it's just that if you start as a Fighter//Monk and want to take a level of, say, Ranger, that level must have an NPC class on the other side. If for some reason you wanted Sorcerer, you wouldn't be gestalt at all in that level. Lord knows Fighters get a lot better when they can be Fighter//Monks or Fighter//CA Ninjas or whatever.

Good enough without gestalt:

Tier 1: Wizard, Cleric, Druid, Archivist, Artificer, Erudite
Tier 2: Sorcerer, Favored Soul, Psion, Binder (with access to online vestiges)

May choose an NPC class (Adept, Aristocrat, Commoner, Expert, (Magewright), Warrior) to Gestalt with:

Tier 3: Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Crusader, Bard, Swordsage, Binder (without access to the summon monster vestige), Wildshape Varient Ranger, Duskblade, Factotum, Warblade, Psionic Warrior
Tier 4: Rogue, Barbarian, Warlock, Warmage, Scout, Ranger, Hexblade, Adept, Spellthief, Marshal, Fighter (Dungeoncrasher Variant)

May choose another class from this same list to Gestalt with:

Tier 5: Fighter, Monk, CA Ninja, Healer, Swashbuckler, Rokugan Ninja, Soulknife, Expert, OA Samurai, Paladin, Knight
Tier 6: CW Samurai, Aristocrat, Warrior, Commoner

[Sinfire Titan]

The entire thing is about 3.5. Search on the page for "Gestalt" (it's in the second post). The poster discusses letting some classes gestalt with some others, depending on how powerful the classes are on their own.

The rules work too, at least from what I've seen so far. I'm running a game on that forum using those rules/tiers, and the players got into the idea really fast.

[Korivan]

Nope, Gestalt are not intended to balance with normal and I can't see a way to overcome the imbalance.

(I'm sure someone will say let lower tier classes gestalt and keep upper tier normal but I balancing that would be too tricky for my liking)

not to mention the hassle with figuring out different xp for different people. I dont know about you, but I like to have the least amount extras to deal with so its easier to dm.

[Sinfire Titan]

not to mention the hassle with figuring out different xp for different people. I dont know about you, but I like to have the least amount extras to deal with so its easier to dm.

You don't need to change the XP with partial gestalt, just the encounters/day need an increase from 4 to around 6.

[GreatWyrmGold]

Well...Gesalt works well with tiers, it seems.

Consequenses (warning: OotS humorous)

Spoiler

Show

Miko is happy, due to being able to advance in both mank and paladin at the same time. Oh, no!
Belkar thinks, "Sweet, both barbarian AND ranger at the same time!"...then realises they're both on the list that you have to choose an NPC class for the gesalt. Uh-oh.
Roy looks at the list and selects knight or something.
Haley takes Warrior/Rogue gsalt levels and improves BAB and HP.
Elan probably forgets, and V and Durkon don't benifet from this rule.

[TSED]

(sigh) He was implying I didn't play D&D (at least that's how I read it). After a bit of thought, though, the relevance of the thing became apparent.

What?

No he wasn't.

I keep rereading what he said looking for the insult you've perceived and I cannot find it.

At all.


At all.

Mayhaps you're just being overly sensitive?

[Coidzor]

Well...Gesalt works well with tiers, it seems.

Consequenses (warning: OotS humorous)

Spoiler

Show

Miko is happy, due to being able to advance in both mank and paladin at the same time. Oh, no!
Belkar thinks, "Sweet, both barbarian AND ranger at the same time!"...then realizes they're both on the list that you have to choose an NPC class for the gesalt. Uh-oh.
Roy looks at the list and selects knight or something.
Haley takes Warrior/Rogue gesalt levels and improves BAB and HP.
Elan probably forgets, and V and Durkon don't benifet from this rule.

Oh, fine, I'll spoiler it...

Spoiler

Show

Belkar'd probably choose Expert for the skillpoints.

Roy... Well, he definitely wouldn't be taking Pally now... Hmm... Unless he wanted to be able to easily double-check that he was going back to where he thought he was going. And I think he'd refuse to take Adept or Magewright to make more use out of his Int score on general principle/patricidal sentiment...

O-chul would be a full fighter-paladin rather than a multiclassed fighter6(ish?)/pally3(ish?). So, more feats for him, and whatever it is that Pallys get that he has the stats to qualify for :/...

Hinjo: obligated to take aristocrat levels?

Agree about Haley and warrior... Maybe, just maybe adept(spells) or aristocrat(fluffy feelings inside).

Also, GWG I agree with TSED, I'm kinda confuzzled about what about that caused you to become upset.

[GreatWyrmGold]

What?

No he wasn't.

I keep rereading what he said looking for the insult you've perceived and I cannot find it.

At all.


At all.

Mayhaps you're just being overly sensitive?

First off: No insult.
Second off: It's something I interpreted, but later realised wasn't there.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Well...Gesalt works well with tiers, it seems.

Consequenses (warning: OotS humorous)

Spoiler

Show

Miko is happy, due to being able to advance in both mank and paladin at the same time. Oh, no!
Belkar thinks, "Sweet, both barbarian AND ranger at the same time!"...then realises they're both on the list that you have to choose an NPC class for the gesalt. Uh-oh.
Roy looks at the list and selects knight or something.
Haley takes Warrior/Rogue gsalt levels and improves BAB and HP.
Elan probably forgets, and V and Durkon don't benifet from this rule.

Spoiler

Show

Miko is dead, and (thankfully) being gestalt probably wouldn't have helped her.

Belkar only has one real option: His Wisdom is too low for Adept to be useful; Aristocrat he is not; a Commoner he will not be called; Warrior is doubly redundant. His best option is Expert, not for the skill points, but because it has a good Will save. Being able to pick any skills as class skills may also help, and he'll get a few more skill points on his Barbarian levels.

I'd hope Roy would pick up the Dungeoncrasher variant, and maybe grab Magewright since he's probably smart enough to make use of it. If he can't because this isn't in Eberron, then he can grab Expert and get more skill points and a better Will save.

Elan can get Warrior with his Bard levels to be a better swordsman, plus he'll have all good saving throws.

V. and Durkon are always saving the day anyway, maybe now someone else will have the means to shine.

[Coidzor]

Spoiler

Show

Miko is dead, and (thankfully) being gestalt probably wouldn't have helped her.

Belkar only has one real option: His Wisdom is too low for Adept to be useful; Aristocrat he is not; a Commoner he will not be called; Warrior is doubly redundant. His best option is Expert, not for the skill points, but because it has a good Will save. Being able to pick any skills as class skills may also help, and he'll get a few more skill points on his Barbarian levels.

I'd hope Roy would pick up the Dungeoncrasher variant, and maybe grab Magewright since he's probably smart enough to make use of it. If he can't because this isn't in Eberron, then he can grab Expert and get more skill points and a better Will save.

Elan can get Warrior with his Bard levels to be a better swordsman, plus he'll have all good saving throws.

V. and Durkon are always saving the day anyway, maybe now someone else will have the means to shine.

Heh, point about Roy... Say, didn't Mr. Burlew help write up the Dungeoncrasher variant? ...He wrote something for WOTC, didn't he?

[GreatWyrmGold]

Spoiler

Show

Miko is dead, and (thankfully) being gestalt probably wouldn't have helped her.

Belkar only has one real option: His Wisdom is too low for Adept to be useful; Aristocrat he is not; a Commoner he will not be called; Warrior is doubly redundant. His best option is Expert, not for the skill points, but because it has a good Will save. Being able to pick any skills as class skills may also help, and he'll get a few more skill points on his Barbarian levels.

I'd hope Roy would pick up the Dungeoncrasher variant, and maybe grab Magewright since he's probably smart enough to make use of it. If he can't because this isn't in Eberron, then he can grab Expert and get more skill points and a better Will save.

Elan can get Warrior with his Bard levels to be a better swordsman, plus he'll have all good saving throws.

V. and Durkon are always saving the day anyway, maybe now someone else will have the means to shine.

Since you replied in a spoiler...

Spoiler

Show

I meant before the castle-go-blow-up thing for Miko.
Yeah, Warrior's redundant for B.
Why'd Roy need Expert? He could choose Monk for the same effect, plus some cool class abilities (most if which, sadly, are negated by armor...).
Elan's explanation is fine, but it requires him to remember to use the option...hence what I said.

Where's the Dungeoncrasher varient?

Looking over the thread, I realise it's "solved" both overpowered spellcasters AND balencing gesalt. In (checks) a bit over two hours. Good job, playground.

[kamikasei]

Looking over the thread, I realise it's "solved" ... overpowered spellcasters

It really hasn't.

[Eldariel]

Since you replied in a spoiler...

Spoiler

Show

I meant before the castle-go-blow-up thing for Miko.
Yeah, Warrior's redundant for B.
Why'd Roy need Expert? He could choose Monk for the same effect, plus some cool class abilities (most if which, sadly, are negated by armor...).
Elan's explanation is fine, but it requires him to remember to use the option...hence what I said.

Where's the Dungeoncrasher varient?

Looking over the thread, I realise it's "solved" both overpowered spellcasters AND balencing gesalt. In (checks) a bit over two hours. Good job, playground.

Roy benefits of Expert much more 'cause he's smart (and has all high mentals) and skilled and thus can make use of 6+Int skills (especially since with ranks, he's pretty good at anything) and having class skills of his choice over Monk (I mean, he hasn't really showed any desire to fight unarmed) is pretty major. Monk would have few decent feats on low levels, but beyond that, Expert just does it better ('cause Roy is NOT going unarmored and unarmed, thus negating 90% of Monk's class features).

[ColdSepp]

[color]Where's the Dungeoncrasher varient?[/color]

Dungeonscape.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Where's the Dungeoncrasher varient?

Dungeoncrasher is in Dungeonscape.

[Korivan]

Now that I think about it...I know the PERFECT gestalt character for this. He'd blend in so well with normal characters that nobody would think he's gestalt. One of our group members is a human rouge/ranger... Its a human heavy world but he hasnt taken favored enemy humonoid (or whetever he needs.) Has a 10 WIS and is level 5...So he doesnt have any ability to use ranger spells yet, or possibly ever depending on what he does. He relies heavily on a bow, but stays far enough away so point blank shot, and sneak attack dont work. Tends to get caught up in melee...alot...alot alot. We are in a low magic item world, so his ability to get things upgraded or buy magic items is rare or non-existant (one of our players is a fighter/mage, working on taking alot of craft feats though.) I think he's a fair match for a normal charcter....or 5 kobolds

[Indon]

I'm planning out a game now in which limited gestalt options replace WBL for players - so only PC's and dangerous NPC's have that power (as it's equivalent to having and using magic items).

If I run it in the near future, I'll post back here.

[TSED]

Now that I think about it...I know the PERFECT gestalt character for this. He'd blend in so well with normal characters that nobody would think he's gestalt. One of our group members is a human rouge/ranger... Its a human heavy world but he hasnt taken favored enemy humonoid (or whetever he needs.) Has a 10 WIS and is level 5...So he doesnt have any ability to use ranger spells yet, or possibly ever depending on what he does. He relies heavily on a bow, but stays far enough away so point blank shot, and sneak attack dont work. Tends to get caught up in melee...alot...alot alot. We are in a low magic item world, so his ability to get things upgraded or buy magic items is rare or non-existant (one of our players is a fighter/mage, working on taking alot of craft feats though.) I think he's a fair match for a normal charcter....or 5 kobolds

If he keeps getting caught up in melee, surely sneak attack is going to show up?

[Coidzor]

Aye, what with flanking and all, right?