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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Troll in the Playground
     
    AssassinGuy

    Join Date
    Apr 2007

    Default Magic is an Abomination (3.5 Base Class)

    Short Introduction
    Spoiler
    Show
    Most people can see that dungeons and dragons isn’t at all like rock-paper-scissors. There aren’t established categories that beat each other beyond the simple distinction that full casters beat everyone else. If anything, this game is more of a tier-based game, with the classes split into different tiers of usefulness.
    Some people have found this a bit annoying and have made attempts to specifically make a mage killer. Sometimes, a base class is made with good resistances, evasion and mettle, and a couple class features to vex lower-level spellcasters a bit. This is all well and good but with all of the cheese out there nowadays, even these attempts don’t stand a chance going toe-to-toe with a single caster, the foe they were built to fight. No, casters need an opponent who simply turn the magic off, using mechanics simplistic enough to stop them from using even the most fundamental of cheese.
    Some people have seen this and have fumbled with it. Countless times, I have seen threads asking whether an “immune to all magic” trait for a class would warrant a level adjustment. Each time, however, the poster seems unsure of how to word the ability without casters circumventing it, making it seem clunky or insubstantial.
    What I have come up with is a mechanic that simply stops over 90% of magic (99% at 20th level). I have built it into the form of a class that allows the ability to scale, also allowing the class to benefit from some magical augmentations and magic items, making sure that they are not too terribly underpowered. At the same time, though, I have created a class that plows over artificers, clerics, wizards, sorcerers, archivists, favored souls, wu-jens, shugenjas, warmages, dread necromancers, beguilers, warlocks, healers, spirit shamans, and bards (if playing with the magic-psionic transparency rule, the list is longer) that still gets beat up by normal fighters, monks, and soul knives (I’d put the odds at about even when fighting a druid, depending on how many combat-related feats the druid has).
    As always, please examine and critique honestly. I want to see if this needs any fine tuning.
    Last edited by Realms of Chaos; 2009-07-04 at 11:35 AM.
    I'm try not to be too vain but this was too perfect not to sig.
    Quote Originally Posted by Primal Fury View Post
    okay RoC, that is enough! the gitp boards can only take so much awsome, you might actually hurt somebody with this one!
    At long last, I have an extended signature

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Troll in the Playground
     
    AssassinGuy

    Join Date
    Apr 2007

    Default Re: Magic is an Abomination (3.5 Base Class)

    Abolisher

    “Magic is an aberration. I alone am pure of soul and body.”
    Sangrel Morits, abolisher

    Throughout the multiverse, magic is accepted as a fact. Even where it is impeded or wild, magic may be found throughout existence. The strongest of wizards can even invoke magic where none was intended to exist, in the midst of a dead magic zone.
    Still, there are those who are unwilling to accept magic. Far too often is it displayed that absolute power corrupts absolutely. Every feat of magic is a temptation to those who would take things further. Once strong enough, a single wizard or druid can take down an army or reshape the world to their liking.
    Among those who fight against the presence of magic are abolishers, rare individuals whose bodies reject magic completely. These abolishers are immune to what is often thought of as the greatest force in existence. The goal of some, it seems, is to abolish magic completely, to wipe it from the multiverse one wizard at a time.
    Adventures: Though some abolishers fight towards an idealized world without magic, many of them are simply highly skilled at fighting it. That their talents for fighting magic puts them in conflict with spellcasters comes seems completely natural for them.
    Even those seeking to destroy magic know that their goals are extreme and likely unachievable. They seek to choose their targets carefully, choosing those that don't help or harm society if good or lawful and those that society relies upon if evil or chaotic. In the meantime, they are willing to overlook or, in some circumstances, make use of magic that they aren't actively opposing at the moment.
    For example, even the most extreme of good-aligned abolishers admit that curative magic has an overrall positive impact on the world. This being so, they are highly unlikely to start a crusade on a local church and may even accept healing magic if their life is in jeapordy and it can pierce their defenses. Likewise, to defeat stronger foes, a few abolishers try using the items that their opponents craft, knowing that such items will need frequent replacement as the abolisher grows stronger.
    Characteristics: The abolisher’s training represents a refinement of their natural talent, using it to better fight against the menace of magic. They can stop most casters in their tracks, making it impossible for them to cast spells. By disrupting the flow of magic in a spellcaster, abolishers can even cause great physical pain in casters.
    Alignment: Abolishers can be of any alignment. Good abolishers are more forgiving towards helpful sorts of magic while evil abolishers despise all magic or even favor the darker side to magic. Lawful abolishers generally see magic as an aberration to be destroyed, a cosmic flaw in existence. Chaotic abolishers often see the corruption that magic can bring to society.
    Religion: Abolishers may belong to just about any religion, based on their own personal beliefs. Most abolishers, however, dislike or despise deities, seeing them as magical entities that provide magic to countless others.
    Background: Every now and then, an individual is born with a bit of resistance to magic. Of these rare children, about half choose to hone their gift and become an abolisher. There are no known colleges and mentors are exceedingly rare. Luckily (or unluckily), abolishers in training seem to discover their talents intuitively. Furthermore, they are more inclined that others of their race to see problems with a world so reliant on magic. It is rare that multiple abolishers meet but such events have been known to lead to the destruction of entire wizard towers.
    Races: Abolishers have been known to appear in just about every race. The most common race by a large margin are the dwarves, perhaps due to their natural resistance towards magic. Human abolishers aren’t particularly common but are known to make larger spectacles of themselves than those of other races. Elven abolishers are exceedingly rare and some who show burgeoning talent are slain as children.
    Other Classes: Abolishers get along with most other spellcasters in the same way that a paladin might get along with a rogue. Though most abolishers have some degree of open-mindedness, they are still weary of spellcasting allies. Mundane allies, such as fighters and monks, are received a bit more warmly. The relationship between abolishers and spellthieves is perhaps one of the oddest in existence. Both are effective at fighting spellcasters but the spelltheif uses spells of their own, making them a potential threat of sorts. Most abolishers traveling with adventuring parties have silently agreed to a policy of live and let live.
    Role: Abolishers are specialized warriors who fight spellcasters and those who use spell-like abilities. Apart from disarming most magical abilities, however, they are for the most part unarmed, a second-string combatant at best.

    Game Rule Information
    Abolishers have the following game statistics
    Abilities: abolishers have no true reliance on any single ability score. However, as most choose to enter combat, strength, dexterity, and constitution all of great aid to them.
    Alignment: Any
    Hit Dice: d8

    Class Skills
    The abolisher’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Balance (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Gather Information (Cha), Heal (Wis), Hide (Dex), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Knowledge (arcane) (Int), Knowledge (religion) (Int), Listen (Wis) Move Silently (Dex), Sense Motive (Wis), Spellcraft (Int), Spot (Wis), Swim (Str), Tumble (Dex)
    Skill Points at 1st Level: (4 + Int modifier) x 4
    Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 4 + Int modifier

    {table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special|Neutralization
    1|+0|+2|+0|+2|Bonus Feat, Neutralization, Unrelenting|0th
    2|+1|+3|+0|+3|Dampening Surge, Resilience|0th
    3|+2|+3|+1|+3|Disruptive Pulse +1d6|1st
    4|+3|+4|+1|+4|Neutralize Spell-Like Abilities|1st
    5|+3|+4|+1|+4|Bonus Feat|2nd
    6|+4|+5|+2|+5|Implacable|2nd
    7|+5|+5|+2|+5|Disruptive Pulse +2d6|3rd
    8|+6/+1|+6|+2|+6|Disrupt Flow|3rd
    9|+6/+1|+6|+3|+6|Bonus Feat|4th
    10|+7/+2|+7|+3|+7|Inescapable|4th
    11|+8/+3|+7|+3|+7|Disruptive Pulse +3d6|5th
    12|+9/+4|+8|+4|+8|Undo Augmentation|5th
    13|+9/+4|+8|+4|+8|Bonus Feat|6th
    14|+10/+5|+9|+4|+9|Inescapable|6th
    15|+11/+6/+1|+9|+5|+9|Disruptive Pulse +4d6|7th
    16|+12/+7/+2|+10|+5|+10|Destroy Flow|7th
    17|+12/+7/+2|+10|+5|+10|Bonus Feat|8th
    18|+13/+8/+3|+11|+6|+11|Inescapable|8th
    19|+14/+9/+4|+11|+6|+11|Disruptive Pulse +5d6|9th
    20|+15/+10/+5|+12|+6|+12|Reality Reinstatement|9th[/table]

    Class Features:
    All of the following are class features of the abolisher.

    Weapon and Armor Proficiency: An abolisher is proficient with all simple and martial weapons and with light and medium armor, but not with shields.

    Bonus Feats: At 1st level, an abolisher gains a bonus feat from those listed in the post below. At 5th level and every 4 levels afterwards (9th, 13th, 17th), the abolisher gains an additional such bonus feat.

    Neutralization (Su): An abolisher neutralizes magic around them, keeping themselves save from most spells. At 1st level, this protection only applies to 0-level spells. At each odd level, it applies to an additional spell level of spells (up to 9th level spells at 19th level). How the neutralization works depends on whether the spell has a target, area, or effect.
    Target: The abolisher cannot be targeted by a spell they neutralize. Touch spells aren’t expended when the caster touches him, rays bend around him, and other targeting effects simply fail when directed towards him.
    Area: The abolisher creates a small dead space in the area of any spell they enter. While in the area of a spell, his square(s) is unaffected by the spell’s effects (including the effects from neighboring squares, such as how a wall of fire harms adjacent creatures).
    Effect: An abolisher can neutralize most magical effects with a touch. If the duration isn’t instantaneous, any object, creature, or force created by such a spell can be nullified with a touch attack. Likewise, if such an effect is made to touch the abolisher or makes an attack against him that exceeds his touch AC, the effect is nullified and the abolisher is unharmed.
    There is a price to be paid for this power, however. An abolisher cannot lower his protection for any reason. Furthermore, magic items used or worn by the neutralizer are (temporarily) nullified if he nullifies spells of a spell level equal to at least half of the item’s caster level.

    Unrelenting (Su): Abolishers have been taught to be relentless in combat, never giving spellcasters the time they need. No creature within his reach may cast defensively. Furthermore, whenever a spell or spell-like ability provokes an attack of opportunity from the abolisher, he uses his class level in place of his base attack bonus and the target fails their concentration check if the attack hits.

    Resilience (Su): Starting at 2nd level, an abolisher learns how to heal themselves without the use of magic. They heal naturally at twice the normal rate. Furthermore, they gain a number of points each day equal to twice their class level. They may spend any number of points as a standard action to heal an equal amount of health.

    Dampening surge (Su): Starting at 2nd level, an abolisher can draw upon greater power, letting them nullify greater spells. Once per day per class level, an abolisher can raise the maximum level of spell they can nullify by 1 for a single round. If they can nullify spell-like abilities, the same benefit applies to them.
    Activating this ability is a free action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity. This ability does not stack with itself.

    Disruptive Pulse (Su): Starting at 3rd level, an abolisher can damage a spellcaster by disrupting the flow of magic within their bodies. Whenever the abolisher makes a successful melee attack against a target who can cast spells or spell-like abilities, they take an additional 1d6 damage. Alternately, if the abolisher makes a successful melee touch attack against such a foe, they take 1d6 damage.
    At 7th level and every 4 levels afterwards, the damage dealt by this ability increases by another 1d6.

    Neutralize Spell-Like Abilities (Su): Starting at 4th level, an abolisher can nullify powers that imitate spells. The abolisher’s neutralization class feature now applies to spell-like abilities of up to one spell level lower than the maximum level of spell that they can nullify.

    Implacable (Su): Starting at 6th level, an abolisher is incredibly hard to escape in combat. As a move action, they may designate a single foe. If that creature moves before the start of the abolisher's next turn, he may move up to his speed as an immediate action. If his movement doesn’t exceed 5 feet, the abolisher does not provoke attacks of opportunity.

    Disrupt Flow (Su): Starting at 8th level, an abolisher’s very presence disrupts the flow of magic around them, especially for those that they strike. All spells and spell-like abilities cast by creatures within 15 feet of the abolisher take a –2 penalty to their caster level, to their save DCs, and to their spell penetration checks.
    Furthermore, If the abolisher makes a successful melee attack or melee touch attack against a foe, all spells and spell-like abilities they cast take a –2 penalty to their cast level, to their save DCs, and to spell penetration checks. Furthermore, all spells and spell-like abilities active on their person of a spell level that the aboilsher could neutralize are suppressed. These penalties lasts for 1 round.
    These two penalties stack with each other.

    Inescapable (Su): Starting at 10th level, creatures within 30 feet of an abolisher lose any movement speeds that they have gained through spells or spell-like abilities of spell levels that their Neutralization class feature could neutralize. Furthermore, spells and spell-like abilities that enhance preexisting movement speeds are also suppressed. Creatures that lose their flying speed gently float down to earth.
    Starting at 14th level, Creatures within 25 feet of an abolisher may not cast or use spells or spell-like abilities of the teleportation subschool if their Neutralization class feature can neutralize that spell or spell-like ability.
    Starting at 18th level, Creatures within 20 feet of an abolisher may not cast or use spells or spell-like abilities that involve extraplanar travel (such as etherealness, shadow walk, or blink) if their Neutralization class feature can neutralize that spell or spell-like ability.

    Undo Augmentation (Su): Starting at 12th level, an abolisher suppresses magic in their surroundings, unraveling the magical augmentations of others. All spells and spell-like abilities active on creatures within 10 feet are suppressed if the abolisher can neutralize spells (or spell-like abilities) of the appropriate level. Time spent suppressed in this way does not count towards the duration of a spell or spell-like ability. Despite the name of this ability, both harmful and helpful magic is suppressed.
    Furthermore, all magic items within 10 feet cease functioning for as long as they remain in range. Magical armor and weaponry is still masterwork, however.

    Destroy Flow (Su): Starting at 16th level, an abolisher disrupts the flow of magic in the world around them, making it impossible to cast spells for the people they strike. All spells and spell-like abilities cast by creatures within 15 feet of the abolisher take a –2 penalty to their caster level, to their save DCs, and to their spell penetration checks. This penalty stacks with those from the abolisher’s disrupt flow class feature.
    Furthermore, If the abolisher makes a successful melee attack or melee touch attack against a foe, that foe may not cast spells or spell-like abilities of up to the level that the abolisher’s neutralization class feature would neutralize. This effect lasts for 1 round.

    Reality Reinstatement (Su): Starting at 20th level, an abolisher can even undo the effects of instantaneous magic within 5 feet of themselves. Items created through fabricate spells return to their component parts, holes created with disintegrate spells refill with material, boulders moved via telekinesis return to their original resting place, etc.
    Hit point damage, healing, and death dealt to creatures is not reversed by this ability but physical signs of such magic are (bodies destroyed through implosion become whole once more, burns and scratches from magic spells are removed, wounds visibly healed through healing magic open up once more).
    Unlike other abilities, an abolisher can suppress this class feature through sheer force of will. The ability remains suppressed for as long as they concentrate + 2 rounds.

    Abolishers and Multiclassing: As abolishers are born rather than trained, a character cannot multiclass into abolisher. However, an abolisher who multiclasses out of abolisher may later gain more class levels if they desire. Abolishers may not take levels in any class that grants spell-like abilities or spellcasting.
    Last edited by Realms of Chaos; 2009-07-06 at 04:46 PM.
    I'm try not to be too vain but this was too perfect not to sig.
    Quote Originally Posted by Primal Fury View Post
    okay RoC, that is enough! the gitp boards can only take so much awsome, you might actually hurt somebody with this one!
    At long last, I have an extended signature

  3. - Top - End - #3
    Troll in the Playground
     
    AssassinGuy

    Join Date
    Apr 2007

    Default Re: Magic is an Abomination (3.5 Base Class)

    Errata, FAQ, and Feats

    Reality Reinstatement Errata:
    Here is a short explanation of how reality reinstatement interracts with different effects. Let me know what I have missed.
    Teleportation/Telekinetic movement: If an object or creature is moved by magic, reality reinstatement forces it back to where it was unless it has moved at least 5 feet since being affected by the magic. If another object or creature occupies the square(s) that the affected object would return to, it is harmlessly shunted into the nearest open space to make room.
    Destruction of bodies/objects: any matter simply destroyed via magic returns into existence (though destroyed living matter returns as nonliving matter). If another object or creature occupies the space that would be filled by the destroyed matter, it is harmlessly shunted into the nearest open space to make room.
    Creation/Construction: Objects put together via magic fall back into their component parts unless they’ve been mundanely altered or reinforced since their construction. Objects simply created via magic disappear.
    Death/Reanimation: Death effects are not reversed by the presence of an abolisher. Undead animated through spells and spell-like abilities, however, are instantly slain (even if they were living creatures before the spell).
    Revival/Healing: Wounds and scratches healed up via healing spells reappear on creatures but the strength (or weakness) of their life force is unaffected, meaning that they are not re-damaged. The “wounds” can be healed with 1 point of magical healing or heal on their own after 1d4+1 days.
    Other effects removed via healing spells (poison, disease, paralysis, etc.) do not return but the creature displays physical signs and symptoms of such conditions (if any). These can be healed with 10 points of magical healing or heal on their own after 1 day.
    Revival from the dead is not reversed but such creatures assume an appearance similar to a fresh corpse. This appearance lasts indefinitely or until the target receives 50 points of magical healing.
    Damage: Any signs of physical damage dealt by spells to creatures (burns, scratches, gashes, etc.) seem to heal over but the strength (or weakness) of their life force is unaffected, meaning that they are not healed of any hit points. Inanimate objects, however, are healed of any damage dealt by spells and spell-like abilities.

    Mage Slayer Feats:
    Spoiler
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    Passive Neutralization
    You can suppress some spells simply by passing nearby
    Prerequisites: Neutralization
    Benefits: To neutralize spells that create effects, you need only enter an adjacent square to the created effect. Furthermore, effects created by spells cannot be made to appear in squares adjacent to you.

    Pass Protection
    You can protect another ally from dangerous effects of magic.
    Prerequisites: Neutralization
    Benefits: As a standard action, you may touch an adjacent ally to grant that ally the benefits of his neutralization class feature in relation to targeted effects. This protection lasts for 1 round or until either you or the ally move at least 5 feet.
    Special: The ally suffers from the drawbacks of the neutralization class feature while benefiting from this feat.
    Special: If you possess the neutralize spell-like ability class feature, the ally gains the benefit of that ability as well (in relation to targeted effects).

    Dead Zone
    You create a small zone that is exempted from area effects.
    Prerequisites: Neutralization
    Benefits: Choose one adjacent square to you. That square moves with you and benefits from the neutralization class feature in regards to area effects. Each round, you may choose a different square as a swift action.

    Improved Resilience
    You can heal yourself of more damage each day.
    Prerequisites: Resilience
    Benefits: your resilience class feature gains an additional number of points each day equal to your class level.

    Greater Resilience
    You can recover from the most grievous of wounds.
    Prerequisites: Improved resilience
    Benefits: You are automatically stabilized when your hit points drop below 0. Furthermore, while your hit points are below 0, you heal 1 hit point per hour.
    Lastly, you heal 1 point of ability drain per drained ability score per day.
    Special: Bedrest does nothing to increase the rate of healed ability drain.

    Magic Exception
    You can spare a single magic item from the effects of your neutralization.
    Prerequisites: Neutralization
    Benefit: At the start of each day, you may choose a single magic item on your person. By meditating for 1 hour, you can protect it from your neutralization class feature for 24 hours.

    Void Within Void
    It is impossible to stop the power of your neutralization
    Prerequisites: Neutralization
    Benefit: Supernatural abilities gained through levels in abolisher now function as extraordinary abilities (they still affect incorporeal creatures).
    Starting at 5th level, you may imitate the effects of an antimagic zone out to 10 feet for a single round as a swift action. This ability is usable once per day per 5 class levels you possess.

    Extra Dampening
    You can empower your ability to suppress magic more often.
    Prerequisites: Dampening surge
    Benefit: You may use your dampening surge class feature two additional times per day.
    Special: You may take this feat multiple times. It’s effects stack.

    Quickened Dampening
    You can raise your defenses at a moment’s notice.
    Prerequisites: Dampening surge
    Benefits: By expending an extra daily use, you may use dampening surge as an immediate action.

    Baleful Neutralization
    You can pass on some of your curse onto those that you grapple.
    Prerequisites: Neutralization, Disruptive Pulse +1d6, Improved Grapple
    Benefits: While grappling a creature, its magical gear ceases to function. Furthermore, if it can cast spells or use spell-like abilities, you deal your disruptive pulse damage whenever you make a successful grapple check.

    Extend Range
    Your ability to suppress magic stretches farther.
    Prerequisites: Disrupt Flow
    Benefits: The area of your disrupt flow, inescapable, undo augmentation, destroy flow, and reinstate reality class features are doubled.

    Ignore magical Protection
    You can pierce through magical protection
    Prerequisites: Neutralization
    Benefits: your attacks ignore ac bonus and damage reduction granted by spells and/or spell-like abilities.

    Discerning Gaze
    You can see through magical effects
    Prerequisites: Neutralization, spot 9 ranks
    Benefits: whenever you see a glamour or figment effect, you are instantly aware that you are looking at an illusion. You do not see through the illusion, however.
    Furthermore, your attacks ignore miss chances gained due to spells and spell-like abilities, such as blur, displacement, and blink (but not invisibility.

    Piercing Gaze
    You can see through effects that would hinder your sight.
    Prerequisites: Neutralization, spot 6
    Benefits: You can see through magical darkness and through magical fog and mist as if they weren’t there. You gain no special ability to see in mundane darkness or fog, however.

    Summoner’s Bane
    You ignore the special abilities of summoned creatures
    Prerequisites: Neutralization
    Benefits: Your neutralization class feature extends to the special attacks of summoned creatures, so long as you could neutralize the spell used to summon the creature.

    Specialized Defenses
    You are more adept at guarding against a single school of magic
    Prerequisites: Neutralization
    Benefits: Choose a single school of magic. Against spells from the chosen school increase the maximum spell level of spells affected by your neutralization class feature by 1.
    Special: If a feat or ability refers to a maximum spell level affected by the neutralization class feature, it does not take this bonus into account.

    Ignore Minions
    You are not distracted by the minions of spellcasters
    Prerequisites: Neutralization
    Benefits: You gain a +5 bonus to your AC against the attacks of familiars, animal companions, and summoned creatures.
    You gain a +2 bonus to your AC against the attacks of undead created via magic and creatures under the effect of a charm or compulsion spell.

    Magic Feedback
    You can damage your foe with the spells that they cast.
    Prerequisites: Disruptive Pulse +2d6
    Benefits: whenever you make a successful melee attack or melee touch attack against a foe, they take damage equal to the level of the highest-level spell they have cast within the last round.
    Special: Damage dealt through this feat is in addition to that dealt through disruptive pulse.

    Suppress Item
    You can suppress the effects of an opponent’s magical item
    Prerequisites: Neutralization
    Benefits: As a full round action that provokes attacks of opportunity, you may make a melee touch attack against a foe, designating a single piece of visible gear. If the attack is successful and that gear is magical, it ceases to function for the duration of the encounter.
    You may use this ability once per encounter.

    Vestige Hunter
    You have seen supernatural beings just as harmful to the world as spells.
    Prerequisites: Neutralization (3rd level spells)
    Benefits: Your neutralization class feature now applies against the effects of vestiges of a level up to the maximum spell level affected – 2.
    Furthermore, your disruptive pulse class feature now damages creatures bound to a vestige or who are possessed (such as by a fiend or ghost).

    Word Slayer
    While some seek to rewrite the world with their words, you know how to stop them.
    Prerequisites: Neutralization (4th level spells)
    Benefits: Your neutralization class feature now applies against utterances of a level up to the maximum spell level affected –3.
    Furthermore, you disruptive pulse class feature now damages creatures with ranks in truespeak

    Mind Crusher
    Within the minds of some individuals are powers just as threatening as magic.
    Prerequisites: Neutralization
    Benefits: Your neutralization class feature now applies to psionic powers and psi-like abilities of a level up to the maximum spell level affected.
    Furthermore, your disruptive pulse class feature now damages creatures who can use powers or psi-like abilities.
    Special: This feat is only necessary in campaigns where there is no psionic-magic transparency.

    Neutralize the Unnatural
    No longer relying on them yourself, you neutralize some supernatural abilities.
    Prerequisites: Neutralize spell-like ability, Void within Void
    Benefits: Your neutralization, disrupt flow, undo augmentation, and reality reinstatement class features function against supernatural abilities that imitate the effects of a spell or that refer to themselves as functioning similarly to a spell if the spell's level doesn't exceed the maximum spell level that you can neutralize - 2.

    Pressure Casters
    A combination of intimidation and subtle magical disruption slows down spellcasting.
    Prerequisites: Neutralization, Inescapable, Intimidate 15 ranks
    Benefits: Any caster who possesses a line of sight and a line of effect with you cannot cast spells with a casting time of under 1 standard action. If they wish, they may cast a spell with a normally shorter casting time as a standard action.

    Magic Warrior
    You are accustomed to fighting against magical armor and weaponry.
    Prerequisites: Neutralization Class Feature
    Benefits: Against attacks made using a magical weapon, you gain a +1 bonus to your AC.
    When you make an attack against an opponent using a magical shield or suit of armor, you gain a +1 bonus to your attack and damage roll.
    Special: You may gain this feat multiple times. It's effects stack.
    Special: The bonus to AC may not exceed the magical weapon's enhancement bonus. The bonus to attack and damage rolls may not exceed the summed total of their shield and armor's enhancement bonuses.
    Last edited by Realms of Chaos; 2009-07-05 at 10:46 PM.
    I'm try not to be too vain but this was too perfect not to sig.
    Quote Originally Posted by Primal Fury View Post
    okay RoC, that is enough! the gitp boards can only take so much awsome, you might actually hurt somebody with this one!
    At long last, I have an extended signature

  4. - Top - End - #4
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Zeta Kai's Avatar

    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    The Final Chapter
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Magic is an Abomination (3.5 Base Class)

    {table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special|Neutralization
    1|+0|+2|+0|+2|Bonus Feat, Neutralization, Unrelenting|0th
    2|+1|+3|+0|+3|Dampening Surge, Resilience|0th
    3|+2|+3|+1|+3|Disruptive Pulse +1d6|1st
    4|+3|+4|+1|+4|Neutralize Spell-Like Abilities|1st
    5|+3|+4|+1|+4|Bonus Feat|2nd
    6|+4|+5|+2|+5|Implacable|2nd
    7|+5|+5|+2|+5|Disruptive Pulse +2d6|3rd
    8|+6/+1|+6|+2|+6|Disrupt Flow|3rd
    9|+6/+1|+6|+3|+6|Bonus Feat|4th
    10|+7/+2|+7|+3|+7|Inescapable|4th
    11|+8/+3|+7|+3|+7|Disruptive Pulse +3d6|5th
    12|+9/+4|+8|+4|+8|Undo Augmentation|5th
    13|+9/+4|+8|+4|+8|Bonus Feat|6th
    14|+10/+5|+9|+4|+9|Inescapable|6th
    15|+11/+6/+1|+9|+5|+9|Disruptive Pulse +4d6|7th
    16|+12/+7/+2|+10|+5|+10|Destroy Flow|7th
    17|+12/+7/+2|+10|+5|+10|Bonus Feat|8th
    18|+13/+8/+3|+11|+6|+11|Inescapable|8th
    19|+14/+9/+4|+11|+6|+11|Disruptive Pulse +5d6|9th
    20|+15/+10/+5|+12|+6|+12|Reality Reinstatement|9th[/table]

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    Default Re: Magic is an Abomination (3.5 Base Class)

    Thank you, Zeta.
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    Now I only wish that I knew what you actually thought of the class.
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    Default Re: Magic is an Abomination (3.5 Base Class)

    Looks pretty good, and well thought out. Although their main weakness seems to be lack of magic support, so VoP might work a little too well with them, since they seem to already have it, in their own way. Otherwise, well done.

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    Default Re: Magic is an Abomination (3.5 Base Class)

    I have no problems with this class. I do have one minor annoyance, but it is quite minor. It will be annoying to keep track of the level of all of the character's magic items to see which ones are dampened each time the character uses its abilities, not to mention the DM having to keep track of the caster level of all of the loot that an enemy has.

    Some things that need clarifying:

    1. Exactly how long are items possessed by the Abolisher and enemies neutralized? You say that it's temporary, but don't list how long exactly the effect lasts.

    2. I would specify that the double-class-level daily hit point regain happens only after a full night's sleep.

    3. Starting at level 12, with the effects of undo augmentation, by your wording it would appear that the Abolisher can never use any magic items or effects ever again. Was this an intended side effect?
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    Default Re: Magic is an Abomination (3.5 Base Class)

    Perhaps a feat or ability that causes combat-casting/concentration check DCs to go up just by being within a certain range.

    Not sure about its relative balance, but I'd go with an additional increase in the concentration check (on top of that of the raw damage) to keep the spell instead of, auto-fail if the AoO/readied action hits.
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    Default Re: Magic is an Abomination (3.5 Base Class)

    Melamoto: I agree that Vow of Poverty is a good choice for abolishers but I don't think that it changes much. They still overwhelm casters and everything else still steamrolls over them. The bonus to ac and attack rolls are nice but they don't even come close to evening the battleground against noncasters.

    Jagadaisho: keeping track of caster levels doesn't seem too difficult. For the player's gear, make them keep track.
    Keeping track of enemy gear doesn't seem like such a problem. Whenever the players divy up treasure, just run a quick check to see what doesn't turn off when they use it.

    As for the three points:
    1. Items in your possession stop working as long as they are in your possession. Undo augmentation suppresses items as long as they are in range of the ability. I thought that this was pretty straightforward but if you think it needs to be stated...
    2. Untrue. Much like a paladin's lay on hands, there is no sleep requirement to refill points. They refill at the start of each day. At least, that was my intention. Is this bad?
    3. I didn't notice that this was true when I was making the class but I suppose that there is no harm in this being the case. Note that you can still receive magical augmentation if it's spell level is above that which you neutralize (a 13th level abolisher can recieve a 7th level enhancement, for example). All gear, however, is lost. Then again, you are bringing others down to your level as well.

    Coidzor:
    I believe deep down in my heart that not only isn't the auto-fail overpowered but that it is absolutely necessary. The thing about magic is that it does anything that a homebrewer wants it to do.
    A 1st level spell that grants a +10 bonus to concentration checks, for example, isn't beyond the realms of possibility.
    To actually make it believable that the abolisher can disrupt spells successfully at any level regardless of how min-maxed the enemy may be, things have to be dealt with in absolute terms. There is no room for negotiation when spellcasters are involved.
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    Default Re: Magic is an Abomination (3.5 Base Class)

    Quote Originally Posted by Realms of Chaos View Post
    Melamoto: I agree that Vow of Poverty is a good choice for abolishers but I don't think that it changes much. They still overwhelm casters and everything else still steamrolls over them. The bonus to ac and attack rolls are nice but they don't even come close to evening the battleground against noncasters.

    Jagadaisho: keeping track of caster levels doesn't seem too difficult. For the player's gear, make them keep track.
    Keeping track of enemy gear doesn't seem like such a problem. Whenever the players divy up treasure, just run a quick check to see what doesn't turn off when they use it.

    As for the three points:
    1. Items in your possession stop working as long as they are in your possession. Undo augmentation suppresses items as long as they are in range of the ability. I thought that this was pretty straightforward but if you think it needs to be stated...
    2. Untrue. Much like a paladin's lay on hands, there is no sleep requirement to refill points. They refill at the start of each day. At least, that was my intention. Is this bad?
    3. I didn't notice that this was true when I was making the class but I suppose that there is no harm in this being the case. Note that you can still receive magical augmentation if it's spell level is above that which you neutralize (a 13th level abolisher can recieve a 7th level enhancement, for example). All gear, however, is lost. Then again, you are bringing others down to your level as well.

    Coidzor:
    I believe deep down in my heart that not only isn't the auto-fail overpowered but that it is absolutely necessary. The thing about magic is that it does anything that a homebrewer wants it to do.
    A 1st level spell that grants a +10 bonus to concentration checks, for example, isn't beyond the realms of possibility.
    To actually make it believable that the abolisher can disrupt spells successfully at any level regardless of how min-maxed the enemy may be, things have to be dealt with in absolute terms. There is no room for negotiation when spellcasters are involved.
    In that case, the abolisher has almost no use for gold. Since the only expensive things in D&D are magical in nature, I really cannot imagine any Abolisher not taking the VoP. They face no penalties due to it that they wouldn't already face due to their class.
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    Default Re: Magic is an Abomination (3.5 Base Class)

    Without the ability to use magic in any form, the class would very swiftly fall behind the power curve. Even if he took Vow of Poverty he'd be pretty lacklustre.

    I know you want a sort of "magical anathema" feel, but without standard boosts to attack rolls, he'll never be able to hit anything. And he has abilities that rely on hitting things!
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    Default Re: Magic is an Abomination (3.5 Base Class)

    Quote Originally Posted by Yuki_Akuma View Post
    Without the ability to use magic in any form, the class would very swiftly fall behind the power curve. Even if he took Vow of Poverty he'd be pretty lacklustre.

    I know you want a sort of "magical anathema" feel, but without standard boosts to attack rolls, he'll never be able to hit anything. And he has abilities that rely on hitting things!
    Agreed; the class is too swingy without magical gear, trouncing casters but falling too easily before martial types without level-appropriate items and enhancements. It's like the VoP monk problem: an archer with fly outside of the suppression range can simply plink away until he falls.

    Some kensai- or soulknife-like self-enhancements are probably called for if he can't use any gear.
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    Default Re: Magic is an Abomination (3.5 Base Class)

    Although I do agree some sort of pseudomagical weapon/armor enhancement in the vein of the class's pseudomagical healing might be nice, I do believe that what you're complaining about is the OP's entire concept for the class. An abolisher is supposed to fold like wet cardboard in an encounter with anyone other than a spellcaster... the class was designed a complete one-trick pony. Magic is a common enough trick in D&D, though, that it still has a sort of utility, and without magical defenses even a 3/4th BAB class with masterwork equipment should be able to take down a squishy wizard (Clerics are more doubtful, since essentially you'd have two 3/4th BAB classes with masterwork gear and d8 hit dice whaling away at each other... they'd almost be identical with all magic out of the picture, though Clerics get all armor proficiencies and the Abolisher gets martial weapons.).

    Don't get me wrong, any sort of balanced party would destroy an Abolisher in no time flat, but with, say, the support of a few Barbarian toughs, or especially with Warblade friends, a couple of Abolishers might be able to eliminate enough magic to allow a purely martial party to overcome a mixed martial/magical party.

    It's still an awfully limited class. On the one hand, the Abolisher really can shut down a mage completely, something nothing else in the game can really do, but on the other hand, that's... all it can do. The Abolisher seems more like a GM tool than a PC class, something one could use in order to prove a player who thinks magic can solve any problem wrong.

    Trying to make a caster-nerf into a class is sort of like trying to make a "falling rock that kills everyone" prestige class. You're personifying GM fiat. What's next, a class that lets you fudge dice rolls in your favor, or possibly "shield your fate from the eyes of the gods" with a little screen of your own to roll behind? I'm using hyperbole, of course, but that's sort of the impression I get from this class.
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    Default Re: Magic is an Abomination (3.5 Base Class)

    Quote Originally Posted by Ascension View Post
    An abolisher is supposed to fold like wet cardboard in an encounter with anyone other than a spellcaster... the class was designed a complete one-trick pony.
    Well, there's a big difference between "still gets beat up by normal fighters, monks, and soul knives" and "folds like wet cardboard." Someone who's good against casters but meh against anyone else is a valuable team member; someone who's awesome against casters and useless against anyone else is dead weight. Without the ability to get to the enemy and hit the enemy, the abolisher is dead weight; all the antimagic on the Prime doesn't help if the wizard is flying out of reach.

    Don't get me wrong, any sort of balanced party would destroy an Abolisher in no time flat, but with, say, the support of a few Barbarian toughs, or especially with Warblade friends, a couple of Abolishers might be able to eliminate enough magic to allow a purely martial party to overcome a mixed martial/magical party.
    The problem with this being that the martial/magical party would focus fire on the abolisher, it would drop like a wet noodle, and then the magic types have the upper hand again.

    Trying to make a caster-nerf into a class is sort of like trying to make a "falling rock that kills everyone" prestige class. You're personifying GM fiat. What's next, a class that lets you fudge dice rolls in your favor, or possibly "shield your fate from the eyes of the gods" with a little screen of your own to roll behind? I'm using hyperbole, of course, but that's sort of the impression I get from this class.
    Completely agreed. While I had issues with the reasoning behind the class as well, I figured others who liked the idea might use it and so the mechanics should be addressed first.
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    Default Re: Magic is an Abomination (3.5 Base Class)

    Quote Originally Posted by PairO'Dice Lost View Post
    Well, there's a big difference between "still gets beat up by normal fighters, monks, and soul knives" and "folds like wet cardboard." Someone who's good against casters but meh against anyone else is a valuable team member; someone who's awesome against casters and useless against anyone else is dead weight. Without the ability to get to the enemy and hit the enemy, the abolisher is dead weight; all the antimagic on the Prime doesn't help if the wizard is flying out of reach.
    For what it's worth, most of my statements were assuming a level 12 or up Abolisher, with at least the first Inescapable and Abolish Augmentation, plus well-chosen feats. Even then, though, you're right... the wizard really has no reason to enter the Abolisher's effective range, and under ordinary conditions the Abolisher obviously can't catch a wizard magically prepared to run away.

    Quote Originally Posted by PairO'Dice Lost View Post
    The problem with this being that the martial/magical party would focus fire on the abolisher, it would drop like a wet noodle, and then the magic types have the upper hand again.
    I meant what I said when I phrased it "a couple of abolishers." I figure at least one will be in negative HP by the end of the encounter. That's why you bring a spare.

    Quote Originally Posted by PairO'Dice Lost View Post
    Completely agreed. While I had issues with the reasoning behind the class as well, I figured others who liked the idea might use it and so the mechanics should be addressed first.
    Fair enough. There certainly are mechanical issues. I was just thinking that the mechanical issues seemed to be in line with the intentions of the OP, making the class's mechanical problems a natural outgrowth of the problems inherent in the class's concept.
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    Default Re: Magic is an Abomination (3.5 Base Class)

    Maybe the class should get bonuses for not using magic items

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    Default Re: Magic is an Abomination (3.5 Base Class)

    Okay, now to adress the issues one at a time:

    VoP is absolutely required but doesn't do enough: Do you think it would help if I exempt the abolisher from his own undo augmentations ability (he would still deal with the drawbacks of neutralization)?
    Alternately (or additionally), might it help if magic exception could be taken multiple times (perhaps up to three), letting more magical items be used.

    This guy can't hit things: This seems a bit odd in and of itself. Consider the average high-level fighter decked out in armor. Magical Full-Plate, Magical Heavy Shield, an amulet of natural armor, and a ring of protection.
    With Undo Augmentation, all they are left with is a +10 bonus to AC, making 22 AC if they have 14 Dex and 23 if they also have the dodge feat (which is a stretch).
    this 23 AC seems easy to beat if you have Mid BAB, a masterwork weapon, and a decent strength score. Of course, if this guy was a paladin, hexblade, or duskblade rather than a a fighter, the abolisher could just go in with a touch attack (disruptive pulse), aiming for the far lower AC of 13.
    Full fighters do rip through this guy like tissue paper but don't start fibs that this guy can't hit them.

    He won't hit things...which he needs to do: wha?? I see a couple of abilities that rely on hitting somebody, unrelenting, disruptive pulse, and disrupt/destroy flow.
    Unrelenting is meant to be used against full spellcasters, note that it lets you use your class level in place of your BAB. Also note that undo augmentations/a proper selection of bonus feats pierce through most common protections that a wizard will have.
    disruptive pulse and disrupt/destroy flow are ideally made to be used against foes that are at this same defensive disadvantage. If you want to attack someone who is defended, however, keep in mind that these abilities can be used as touch attacks, making it easier to hit, especially if you use these touch attacks as an attack of opportunity with unrelenting.

    The Wizard can retreat out of range: True. If the wizard isn't approached quickly enough, they can cast teleport, dimension door, planeshift, or any number of other spells to keep them out of range. Likewise, they can simply fly.
    I expect that this would be rare, however. An average abolisher could run 120 feet, easily trapping an enemy wizard within range of their inescapable class feature (unless they have the oddly specific contingency set of seeing an enemy approach within 125 feet of them).
    Furthermore, one of their bonus feats can double the range of this class feature, perhaps keeping them from escaping range within a single round.

    The Abolisher just looks like DM fiat: Ok, I'll give you that one. This really started as more of a conceptual experiment until it evolved into the class before you.
    At the same time, however, I don't see any other way it could've been done. Spell lists are amazing things. As people keep homebrewing, they keep growing larger and larger. As such, if things are deal with in less than definite terms, magic will find a way to wiggle through the cracks.

    Is there anything else that I missed?

    Oh, yeah...

    The Abolisher is worthless outside of a battle with a wizard: In a dungeon, resistance to magical traps is always nice (though lack of healing stinks when the trap is mechanical).
    Another thing that people might be missing is that the undo augmentation ability is a spell incubator of sorts. Time spent suppressed does not count towards a spell's duration, meaning that a party could be loaded up with spells before the casters regain their spell slots only to have the party still augmented when they leave the area of that effect the next day.
    Though it will probably only rarely be used as such, the implacable class feature does allow an abolisher to set up tactical situations such as flanking whenever an enemy tries to get away from them.
    Also, although spellcasting monsters are relatively rare, spell-like abilites are far more common.
    Sometimes, the party is subjected to a spell that you wish someone had survived through, such as a mass sleep, paralysis, or charming spell. In some cases, this may be plot driven and the surviving abolisher may wish that they had failed. Otherwise, they may be able to get away (perhaps getting the rest of the party to safety along with them.
    Much like a monk, abolishers have a decent spell list and skills per level.
    Last edited by Realms of Chaos; 2009-07-05 at 01:37 AM.
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    Default Re: Magic is an Abomination (3.5 Base Class)

    The thing is.... wouldn't he still get beaten up by clerics? I mean, until level 19, his neutralization is always going to be one step behind a clerics strongest buff (unless the cleric took a non-spellcasting dip, which isn't too much of a stretch), and until then the cleric is going to be able to self buff himself above and beyond the abolisher since they have the same stats otherwise (in fact, the cleric can use heavier armor, but doesn't have martial weapon proficiency). I'm also not sure, but does this do anything against druids wildshaping?
    Last edited by Milskidasith; 2009-07-05 at 01:50 AM.

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    Default Re: Magic is an Abomination (3.5 Base Class)

    Well, until 12th level, the abolisher isn't going to stop augmentations already active on an opponent (and when they do, dampening surge let's them stop the most recent buffs for 1 round/level). Therefore, divine metamagic/persist cheese still worksfor awhile against this guy.

    Against the druid, it basically becomes a fighting match between this guy and a bear/wolf/dinosaur. No magical armor or weapons that still grant bonuses, no natural spells, just the raw stats of what they've become.

    Does anyone have suggestions for how the class can be improved?
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    Default Re: Magic is an Abomination (3.5 Base Class)

    Hmm... It occurs to me the Abolisher would be amazing in gestalt. It seems like most people take a spellcasting class on at least one side of their gestalt characters, and if you combined Abolisher with, say, Warblade, you'd be able to get the greater durability and much greater punch that this class lacks. The Abolisher/Warblade would probably still have trouble against other X/Martial Adept gestalts, but he'd have greater versatility and viability as a character.
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    Default Re: Magic is an Abomination (3.5 Base Class)

    Quote Originally Posted by Realms of Chaos View Post
    Well, until 12th level, the abolisher isn't going to stop augmentations already active on an opponent (and when they do, dampening surge let's them stop the most recent buffs for 1 round/level). Therefore, divine metamagic/persist cheese still worksfor awhile against this guy.

    Against the druid, it basically becomes a fighting match between this guy and a bear/wolf/dinosaur. No magical armor or weapons that still grant bonuses, no natural spells, just the raw stats of what they've become.

    Does anyone have suggestions for how the class can be improved?
    It looks fine besides the aforementioned druid and cleric matchups.

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    Default Re: Magic is an Abomination (3.5 Base Class)

    I admit that this class's goal was more to stop to stop batman wizard than to topple CoDzilla (though it does give them a bit of a run for their money).

    Considering that the wizard needs to cast celerity followed by a greater shadow evocation to imitate contingency set with teleport just to get away from this guy (I think that works), I think that the class accomplishes its goal.
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    Default Re: Magic is an Abomination (3.5 Base Class)

    Quote Originally Posted by Realms of Chaos View Post
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    Most people can see that dungeons and dragons isn’t at all like rock-paper-scissors. There aren’t established categories that beat each other beyond the simple distinction that full casters beat everyone else.
    emphasis added.

    Why does EVERYONE on these boards say this! It's not true! Lets say a 20 lvl wizard has a HP score of 150, which is being generous since I gave him 16 con and Improved Toughness as a feat, which I've never seen a wizard grab, and an AC of 25, A 20 lvl GNOME fighter TWF, will gain 7 attacks in a full attack, and lets say he's wielding +3 longswords instead of bastard swords or Dwarven waraxes, his total accuracy to hit is +24/+24/+19/+19/+14/+14/+9 and dealing a AVERAGE (assuming he rolled a 3 on his d6's) of 20 damage a hit. The first 2 attacks are going to hit unless he rolls a nat 1, so there a given, the next two have a 70% chance to hit, and the next two (although iffy) have a 45% and last one we'll assume is going to whiff. Thats a high probabilty for at LEAST 80 damage a turn, and possibly 120. Whereas this same Gnome fighter is likely to have a HP score of around 320 without HP boosting feats. Sure, the wizard can dish out 120 MAX a turn (Not use non-core spells and feats, etc.) but unless he casts defensively the fighter gets an AoO not to mention if the Fighter is ready actions to disrupt spell casting, in which case the wizard runs a risk of losing his spell and wasting his turn. I'm not arguing that Wizards are weaker than fighters but the reverse isn't true either, I find the core classes fairly well balanced (assuming you take roleplaying into account) and I'm tired of these "accepted assumptions" that certain classes are inherently fail. I understand if a core class doesn't do what you want it to do so you tweak it, but not all monks should get full BAB nor should Fighters get abilities every level as well as feats... ugh..

    Sorry about my rant, it kinda got off topic. I actually like what you've done here, kinda like a different take on the Occult Slayer.

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    Default Re: Magic is an Abomination (3.5 Base Class)

    Here's a thought, the Abolisher is doing away with the magic and reinforcing reality. We all know that real weaponry is quite a bit more deadly than DnD weaponry.

    Just give him the bonuses he would normally get from a slightly below par level magic item and call it

    Harsh Reality (Su) Starting at Xth level an Abolisher gains a X bonus to Attack Rolls and Damage.

    You could also implement some sort of bleeding damage since in a non-magical universe people can't take six hits from a battleaxe without bleeding to death.

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    Default Re: Magic is an Abomination (3.5 Base Class)

    Insert obligatory "But HP doesn't actually measure physical damage" protest here.
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    Default Re: Magic is an Abomination (3.5 Base Class)

    Off topic reply to Chokuto:
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chokuto View Post
    emphasis added.

    Why does EVERYONE on these boards say this! It's not true!
    It is indeed. Here's why:

    Lets say a 20 lvl wizard has a HP score of 150, which is being generous since I gave him 16 con and Improved Toughness as a feat, which I've never seen a wizard grab,
    Assuming he has not polymorphed into a form with improved Con or has not cast one of the many spells granting increased HP.

    and an AC of 25,
    Assuming he has not polymorphed into a form with natural armor or has not cast one of the many spells granting increased AC.

    A 20 lvl GNOME fighter TWF, will gain 7 attacks in a full attack, and lets say he's wielding +3 longswords instead of bastard swords or Dwarven waraxes, his total accuracy to hit is +24/+24/+19/+19/+14/+14/+9 and dealing a AVERAGE (assuming he rolled a 3 on his d6's) of 20 damage a hit.
    Assuming he has not polymorphed into a form with DR or cast one of the many spells granting DR.

    The first 2 attacks are going to hit unless he rolls a nat 1, so there a given,
    Assuming he does not have any form of concealment (blur), any form of miss chance (blink), or any contingency to avoid the attacks (contingent teleport).

    Sure, the wizard can dish out 120 MAX a turn (Not use non-core spells and feats, etc.)
    Assuming he bothers with actual damage, instead of a save-or-suck spell. (And by the way, maximized disintegrate is a fairly straightforward 240 damage.)

    but unless he casts defensively
    ...which he will, because he will have 23 ranks in Concentration and thus automatically make the DC 24 check...

    the fighter gets an AoO not to mention if the Fighter is ready actions to disrupt spell casting, in which case the wizard runs a risk of losing his spell and wasting his turn.
    Assuming the fighter can actually (A) get to the wizard and (B) hit the wizard.

    I'm not arguing that Wizards are weaker than fighters but the reverse isn't true either, I find the core classes fairly well balanced (assuming you take roleplaying into account)
    Roleplaying is not a source of mechanical balance. You cannot judge whether the wizard or fighter is better mechanically based on roleplaying considerations. Were that the case, you could simply roleplay a pacifist wizard who never wants to hurt someone and the wizard loses by default.

    and I'm tired of these "accepted assumptions" that certain classes are inherently fail.
    They are accepted because they have been mathematically verified with statistical analysis and CharOp tests.

    If you go into it assuming that a fighter is standing next to an unbuffed, unprepared wizard and gets to act first, then of course the fighter's going to appear better, but I guarantee you that that will never happen. You need to consider all of the abilities of both classes. And before you say "But the wizard won't have all those spells prepared..." he can easily cover all of those bases with 2-4 spell slots, each of which can be filled with a multitude of spells that achieve the desired result, so there is no One True Spell Selection needed.
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    Quote Originally Posted by abadguy View Post
    Darn you PoDL for making me care about a bunch of NPC Commoners!
    Quote Originally Posted by Chambers View Post
    I'm pretty sure turning Waterdeep into a sheet of glass wasn't the best win condition for that fight. We lived though!
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    Default Re: Magic is an Abomination (3.5 Base Class)

    Quote Originally Posted by Chokuto View Post
    emphasis added.
    <Snip>
    Because a Wizard can simply cast the following two spells and render himself completely invulnerable to the fighter's entire schtick.

    Fly
    Solid Fog

    The wizard is now 50ft straight up and arrows can't hit him through the fog. Ever.
    Then there's the benefit of concealment, even if you could hit the Wizard, you can't see him. The fact that almost every single one of his spells can hit you outside of the first four range increments of almost every ranged weapon.
    Or he can simply charm you when your sleepy, take the first watch, and then CDG you with a scythe. 2d4 averages out to roughly 5 damage, which four times over gives us a fort save versus death equal to 30, at level one, with a 10 strength. At higher levels when the wizard has a magic weapon, Enlarge Person and Bulls strength on hand (say level 5) he can easily force a save of DC 58.

    If you play D&D as it was originally played, a fighter could reasonably kill a wizard, even a powerful one. You play the wizard as his intelligence dictates, then the fighter is just there to look menacing and clean up after you. Like a well armored butler.

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    Default Re: Magic is an Abomination (3.5 Base Class)

    Quote Originally Posted by Zeful View Post
    If you play D&D as it was originally played, a fighter could reasonably kill a wizard, even a powerful one. You play the wizard as his intelligence dictates, then the fighter is just there to look menacing and clean up after you. Like a well armored butler.
    To be fair, if by "as it was originally played" you mean "in prior editions," that's because non-magical types were actually competent (only ones with multiple attacks, class features that couldn't be achieved with buffs, fighter-only items, failed saves only on a 1, etc.) and casters actually had drawbacks (took forever to prepare spells, limited spells known even for wizards, took initiative penalties for higher-level spells, couldn't avoid losing spells with Concentration, etc.). The fighter wasn't always the glorified commoner he is now.
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    Quote Originally Posted by abadguy View Post
    Darn you PoDL for making me care about a bunch of NPC Commoners!
    Quote Originally Posted by Chambers View Post
    I'm pretty sure turning Waterdeep into a sheet of glass wasn't the best win condition for that fight. We lived though!
    Quote Originally Posted by MaxiDuRaritry View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by PairO'DiceLost View Post
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    Default Re: Magic is an Abomination (3.5 Base Class)

    I'm aware of the fighter's past. Which was my point.

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    Default Re: Magic is an Abomination (3.5 Base Class)

    I feel we are getting off of thread's topic, but I'm not convinced yet, I opened a new thread for this discussion here: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...33#post6435733
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    I Am A: Neutral Good Human Cleric (4th Level)
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    Completely random lol

    "So you're suggesting that I put down my sword, you put down your rock, and we try and kill each other like civilized people?"
    "I could always kill you with the rock..."

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