[3.5] In Search of Spock.... Again.

[Doc Roc]

So the endeavor was basically to build something new, a strictly RAW sorcerer who had access to all spells when he needed them, with perhaps a bit of preparation. Bonus points were acquired by laying it out cleanly and not crippling the build in the process. The actual technology used was effectively one or two feats, two lost caster levels, and a dip into any class that grants spells known. I chose, for the sake of cool factor and demonstration of another exploit, Halruaan Elder from shining south.

So, clearly, up ahead is basically the border between theoretical optimization and practical optimization. If you're going to point out an issue with the build, I very kindly ask that you sit down, and write it out carefully in a reduced case so that we can try to resolve it together. If you can't, I still want to hear it. In short.... I present the original thread.

SPOOOOOOOOOOOOOOCCCCCCCCCCCCCK!

[erikun]

Okay, I get how you can learn the spell, and potentially have a spellbook. However, you need to have a Prepared spell to make the exchange - are you planning on preparing all your spell slots, then using Rary each time to swap out for another spell? That sounds horribly inefficient.

Is there some feat or ability I am clearly unaware of?

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Tainted Scholar nets you, what, 10, 15 bonus spell slots each level?

He'll have enough spell slots.

[Doc Roc]

You don't have to lose spells currently prepared if you rest again, so you can basically use rary's to piecemeal migrate your spells around as you need to, if you can sit down and rest up the day before. Here is a chart that may help you grok what kind of lunacy stems from tainted scholar.

[namo]

I have the same objection I've had from the beginning: if you use Tainted Scholar, your trick is half-way moot already. Use the Necropolitan cheese and you get ~50 spells of each level - you don't need spontaneity at this point: you have 3 copies of each of the 12th most powerful spells for each level and 14 free slots to prepare others as needed (for instance).

[Doc Roc]

This certainly can be done without tainted scholar, it was just an example to help present the maximum utility. As before, my counter is that a sorcerer would always like to have spells he shouldn't or can't have, some of which may not even be sor/wiz spells. Things like surge of fortune or favor of the martyr come to mind.

Further, while we have lots of spell slots, we always want more. The abuse of heighten and SCM allows us to capitalize on our lower level slots in really elegant ways.

[Telonius]

I'm not sure how it would fit into that build. But, just to throw it out there... there's always the viable Theurge build. Kobold Loredrake Sorcerer with Greater Draconic Rite of Passage, plus a couple levels in Archivist. PrC that to Mystic Theurge, and you (potentially) have access to every spell in the game with no lost caster levels in Sorcerer. You'd still have to pay the time etc. to copy them all into your prayerbook, of course.

[namo]

I concede the point about the sorcerer wanting more diverse spells. But as soon as Tainted Spellcaster is in the picture you can have a Wizard with tons of slots, which makes the sorcerer moot.

My challenge to you is to make a build that stands (mostly) on its own, i.e. that doesn't need other broken tricks to exist.

Further, while we have lots of spell slots, we always want more. The abuse of heighten and SCM allows us to capitalize on our lower level slots in really elegant ways.

No you don't. Tainted Spellcaster gives you NI slots ; even if you stop at a reasonable level you can always, you know, rest.

[Doc Roc]

Actually, that's a classical but incorrect interpretation relying on a less than viable assumption regarding taint and undead as well as some other abuse. While he's extremely powerful, Spock is still playable in a real campaign, and is built around the assumption that you will try to keep him that way..

But I think this can be done. Slicing out the tainted scholar and swapping it for a different PrC should make things still quite viable. Any suggestions as to which PrC to replace it with or how to restructure the build?

[Heliomance]

I think your best bet is likely the Rainbow Warsnake. Whilst not strictly a sorceror, it is a spont caster who has every single cleric spell ever on his spells known list.

[Doc Roc]

Already built him! He was fun, but :: shrugs :: I wanted something different and shiny and strange! :)

[HamsterOfTheGod]

So the endeavor was basically to build something new, a strictly RAW sorcerer who had access to all spells when he needed them, with perhaps a bit of preparation.

Mage of the Arcane Order?

[Doc Roc]

That's sort of low on the power scale for my tastes when I'm building for my own entertainment, I'm afraid. It works okay, but the time to call a spell is just too long, and the limits on which spells you can call really hurt.

[olentu]

Eh well if you want I could do a rehash of my part in the thread the last time this build came up but I do not really see any point in doing so.

[namo]

Actually, that's a classical but incorrect interpretation relying on a less than viable assumption regarding taint and undead as well as some other abuse. While he's extremely powerful, Spock is still playable in a real campaign, and is built around the assumption that you will try to keep him that way..

I'd agree with you for general Practical Op. But you're using your Chameleon spellbook to get spells from everywhere and then pretending you can cast them as a sorcerer... *shrug*

But I think this can be done. Slicing out the tainted scholar and swapping it for a different PrC should make things still quite viable. Any suggestions as to which PrC to replace it with or how to restructure the build?

I don't know how to make it playable (you lose 2 CLs for Chameleon and need a truckload of level 6 slots) without it - I'm counting on you.

[Doc Roc]

Eh well if you want I could do a rehash of my part in the thread the last time this build came up but I do not really see any point in doing so.

I made a wizard version just for you, Ol! :)

[olentu]

I made a wizard version just for you, Ol! :)

I noticed that and that was considerate however as near as I can tell this thread is discussing the sorcerer version.

[Doc Roc]

Up to a point. Really, I'd be pleased to take either of them and render them into a more practical and appealing form.

Classes right now that I think might work out:

Archmage, with some sliding of levels.
Sanctum spell + Spell like ability + Rary's, 4x daily for an 8th level slot...
Repeat as needed.

Echoing Spell exploits?

Anything that twins or repeats spells. Rary's doesn't mind being strung out across a period of time. Spell dancer would be a natural except we're feat starved and its hideously broken.

For the wizard, extremely early entry into hathran might be workable. I've been playing with some strange new kungfu for just that purpose.

[olentu]

Assuming that last bit was directed towards me. Well I could note anything that comes to mind in general but the fact that I find the sorcerer build to be one that should not work by my interpenetration of the rules would put somewhat of a damper on things. I will see if I can come up with anything that would work in general but I would not expect much.

[Doc Roc]

I'm interested also in making the wizard build more elegant without abusing Hathran.
I'm not sure if there's a solid way to make the sorcerer build RAW legal from your perspective, Ol....... Other than a wizard dip which breaks our ability to get 9ths.