Is there a positive energy (not-undead) equivalent to the lich? (3.5)

[Harperfan7]

I remember seeing the word "deathless" on here somewhere, but I don't know anything about it. Anybody have something for this?

EDIT: How would you go about statting the positive energy spirits that Rich used in Azure city?

[Glyde]

Deathless is a type in the Book of Exalted Deeds. It's pretty much a good version of undead. There's in fact a whole prestige class devoted to the concept (Risen Martyr)

[Hat-Trick]

Isn't there a good lich floating around? Channels positive energy?

[Coidzor]

There was something like a baelnorn or something which was a good, elven lich. Believe it was still undead though.

And of course the archlich. But I might be referencing 2E here rather than 3.X or 4E.

Deathless is relatively new and has relatively few things, or possibly just the one template... Though apparently BoED is a good place to look it up in addition to its Eberron Debut.

[Tempest Fennac]

I guess you could just use the standard Lich while changing the fluff so that they get given eternal life so that they can do something particularly good over a long perioid (actually, I think there's some LN Elf Liches who become Liches to protect their families).

[Zaq]

Deathless is just Undead multiplied by -1. (Just like so much of BoED, sadly... "Good is just the inverse of evil, right? It works that way, doesn't it?")

[Harperfan7]

Isn't there a good lich floating around? Channels positive energy?

Is there? Is it still a skeleton?

[Cyclocone]

The only two distinctly good aligned undead i can remember are the baelnorn (that's the elven one) and the arch-lich.

The arch-lich is from Spelljammer IIRC, so it might not have gotten a 3e write-up, though some SJ-nut will probably have made one though

I'm not sure about the baelnorn. It's also from back in the day, and i can't remember ever seeing a 3e version of it.

Anyway, neither of them are "anti-undead" like the deathless. AFAIK, BoED is the only book to use silly positive-energy undead.
However, i do remember seing a homebrew positive energy lich somewhere on this board; might not be what you're looking for though.

(BTW: 4e has an arch-lich Epic Destiny, although it's not a shiny positive energy one though)

[Gaiyamato]

there is a good aligned Arcane Lich in Mongooses "The Quintessential Wizard II".
But it is still a negative energy undead.
There is also the Incantifier class from Dragon Magazine 339 which turns you into something that might fit nicely.

But other than that Deathless as far as I am aware.

[AslanCross]

Is there? Is it still a skeleton?

The Archlich and Baelnorn are in Monsters of Faerun (3.0). Not really a skeleton, but he is withered and emaciated. (Same artist as the Monster Manual lich, if I'm not mistaken. Wayne Reynolds.)

I'm not exactly sure if he is actually animated by Positive Energy, though, but I do know his reasons for becoming a lich were good, and I assume the potion he drank was not one that required unspeakable evil.

They still are undead, though.

EDIT: There's also the Undying Councilor from the Eberron Campaign Setting. Not a full caster, but you could stack on some cleric levels. The Undying are actually Deathless.

[Kaiyanwang]

There are few more deathless among the elves in Eberron. One is similar to a lich or a mummy, something like a revered ancient. Maybe an Eberron DM could come in help, I don't remember.

Anyway, the more good (but negative energized) lich is the one in Monsters of Faerun, as said.

I think that if the manual where more recent, it would be a deathless (see the features and the alignment..)

[Yuki Akuma]

Anyway, neither of them are "anti-undead" like the deathless. AFAIK, BoED is the only book to use silly positive-energy undead.

You're pretty darn wrong there, buddy. Ever heard of Eberron?

[Devils_Advocate]

Is there? Is it still a skeleton?

Liches aren't skeletons (except in OotS).

AFAIK, BoED is the only book to use silly positive-energy undead.

Mummies were animated by positive energy in some previous edition, I believe.

Positive-energy undead are a little odd. After all, if undead are like living creatures with their polarity reversed (so that Revive Kills Zombie), shouldn't reversing it again just give your regular living creatures?

If you think about it, the deathless could be especially unnatural: Positive energy forced to work like negative energy, instead of functioning normally. In Eberron, though, I think that they're actually the natural result of a manifest zone to the local positive energy plane.

[Haven]

Mummies were animated by positive energy in some previous edition, I believe.

Yeah, 2e.

Which is actually a pretty cool explanation for mummy rot, though I don't know if this was the canonical one: it could basically be super-cancer.

[Yuki Akuma]

Why don't deathless make sense? The pure "life energy" is making corpses continue to live even after they die, but it isn't refined enough to actually return them to life.

[Yora]

Liches aren't skeletons (except in OotS).

Almost all I've ever seen were.

[Yuki Akuma]

Liches rot. So eventually, all liches become skeletons unless they bother to cast gentle repose on themselves daily.

[Devils_Advocate]

Do liches, and for that matter most undead, actually decompose? I had sort of assumed that undeadification preserves them, since undeath is often seen as a means to obtain indefinite "life"span, not eventually falling apart.

Why don't deathless make sense? The pure "life energy" is making corpses continue to live even after they die, but it isn't refined enough to actually return them to life.

... You don't see the contradiction in living without being alive?

[VirOath]

Liches rot. So eventually, all liches become skeletons unless they bother to cast gentle repose on themselves daily.

Or at a better investment get an item (Default is shirt) of gentle repose. At which point you don't have to pay attention to time to make sure you don't run out. Really cheap too.

And yes, ALL undead rot. Negative energy only slows it by so much. But there are ways of restoring a corpse as well.

[Yuki Akuma]

... You don't see the contradiction in living without being alive?

They're alive in the way warforged are alive - sort of, almost, but not exactly.

[Harperfan7]

Alright then, what about those positive energy spirits from the battle at Azure castle? How would you stat those?

[Yuki Akuma]

They're ghosts. But they're Deathless, not Undead.

Simple.

[GreatWyrmGold]

Liches aren't skeletons (except in OotS).

Well, they're skeletal, so it's easy to see how one could make that mistake.

Mummies were animated by positive energy in some previous edition, I believe.

I don't think my dad remembers that, so I'll take your word for it.

Positive-energy undead are a little odd. After all, if undead are like living creatures with their polarity reversed (so that Revive Kills Zombie), shouldn't reversing it again just give your regular living creatures?

If you think about it, the deathless could be especially unnatural: Positive energy forced to work like negative energy, instead of functioning normally. In Eberron, though, I think that they're actually the natural result of a manifest zone to the local positive energy plane.

Deathless are anti-undead, not living but still kickin' due to positive energy. Mirror images may be a better way to think of it.

[T.G. Oskar]

Alright then, what about those positive energy spirits from the battle at Azure castle? How would you stat those?

Sacred Watchers. Each and every one of them.

They're like Ghosts, but they don't have Malevolence. They are supposed to get the ability in which they can regenerate after a while, but that's just ONE of the abilities.

The rest is pretty self-explanatory: all Paladins, all relatively high level (and one or two Epic ones, including Soon), most of them with Exotic Weapon Proficiency (bastard sword) and wielding katanas, and the very few of them with TWF for the wakizashi.

Liches aren't skeletons (except in OotS).

Oh, really? Then what about King Lewstrom VII, aka "Lewie the Lich", from Yet Another Fantasy Gamer Comic? The story of his life actually shows how he turned into a lich and how he actually turns into a skeleton.

And yes, apparently a lich starts losing its skin as normal for a dead person, except that the skin becomes worthless and then gets eaten by maggots, instead of having maggots eat the lich from the outside in.

Only mummies, corpses from frosty regions, and carefully preserved corpses that have reanimated have the chance, and the latter eventually lose that and become skeletons.

As for Deathless, the idea is pretty clear. They aren't animate forever, and it's the spirit of the creature itself that reanimates the corpse, however it may be. Once they finish their job, they return to their resting place, since they apparently are enjoying Celestia/Arborea/Elysium/their deity's plane so much that they only do favors to the living if it's very important. Hence, why you can hammer that out in the story; in either case, it's the same as Revenance, which revives the character for a moment and then it dies again. It's not exactly Raise Dead, but a slightly advanced form of Revenance, which just happens to behave as Animate Dead and Create (Greater) Undead.

[MCerberus]

Mentioned earlier, the Undying Councilor for ECS is a positive energy undead with some spell-like abilities. Unfortunately this isn't a template and it's more like a sentient good-aligned mummy than a lich.