Support for Roleplaying

[Da Pwnzlord]

I have a friend who I've told about RPGs and wants to play. However, his mother is unsure about letting him participate. (what with all the bad press they get and all)

Are there any sites/articles that give well-thought out reasons why roleplaying is good for you/not harmful? (They can't be about D&D specifically, because that's not actually the game we're going to do. He's interested in Warhammer 40k)

[kamikasei]

What specific bad press are we talking about? Is it the D&D = Satan stuff? The "he'll become a colossal nerd and I'll never have grandkids" stuff? The "he'll spend all his money on his Space Marine chapter and die of malnutrition when he decides that paint is an acceptable substitute for carbohydrates in his budget" stuff (a valid concern )?

So far as I know, the negative image of RPGs in the popular consciousness is due to attacks made against D&D, so even if the game in question isn't D&D your best bet is probably to refute those attacks. I know there is at least one quite thorough fisking of the main source of the attacks which I can hunt down. That's assuming we're talking about the "D&D is a Satanic conspiracy" stuff. Let us know. Oh, and if any mod reads this, please advise whether pointing at resources around this issue is acceptable or whether we should take it to PM. I have no intention of getting in to a religious discussion, just determining whether the problem here is rooted in religion and providing links to material that addresses that.

[Athaniar]

I've been wondering, what's the source of the "D&D is Satanism" thing, really?

[Da Pwnzlord]

Well, one of her thing is "Do you have a conscience in this game? Can you do whatever you want and get away with it? Is there a clear distinction between good and evil?"

[Athaniar]

I don't know about Warhammer, but D&D has its (in)famous alignment system, which is exactly what she's asking for. But she sounds like a very overprotective person, so I'm not sure that'll satisfy her. You should tell her that it's just a game, and as long as her son can distinguish between imagination and reality, there is no problem.

[Jaltum]

Well, you could tell her honestly that it depends on the group, but that D&D traditionally uses a system where good and evil are specifically defined and have concrete effects on reality. There are character types like paladins who MUST remain good-aligned or lose all their 'superpowers.'

(I would avoid talking about clerics of fictional gods or magical powers.)

EDIT: Aaaand, I'm an idiot.

Honestly? You're not going to sell her on Warhammer 40K without outright lying.

[elliott20]

if it's warhammer 40K, just tell her it's like chess but with far more elaborate pieces. If she's still concerned about the morality of the game, ask her if the white pieces in chess have an inherent moral leaning, or if the car in monopoly has some kind of spiritual implications you should be aware of.

of course, as long as you keep her away from the actual in-game brutality material it is drawn from, you'll be okay. But yeah, WH40K is known for it's grimdark goofiness.

[Athaniar]

Mhm, Warhammer sort of takes D&Ds alignment system and removes the top half. Metaphorically speaking, of course, but still. A less Grimdark game might be a better start.

[kamikasei]

Well, it's Warhammer. Is it the tabletop wargaming or the WFRP/Dark Heresy "proper" roleplaying game? If the wargaming, it's... just toy soldiers with more rules and a tongue-in-cheek setting. There is "good" and "evil", but the "good" guys aren't very nice, but then you're not meant to take it particularly seriously - it's just an excuse for the tactical play. As Xavius says though, unfortunately, there's the chance that a simple game set up to provide plentiful excuses for over-the-top fictional violence is in itself more than she's willing to let her child near.

I've been wondering, what's the source of the "D&D is Satanism" thing, really?

I'd have to find the essay I was talking about to be sure, but I think it mostly comes from one particular... pundit? campaigner? Not sure what the term would be... in the 80s who claimed D&D was responsible for her son's suicide and, well, pretty much just made a load of stuff up about how it was supposedly based on real occult practices, linked to the whole "Satanic child-abducting cults" thing that was having its fifteen minutes at the time, and so on. A lot of presumably well-meaning people being fed lies and taking them at face value, essentially.

(I know that Tom Hanks movie "Mazes and Monsters" was part of the general hubub, but I can't recall if it was based on the same death that drove the campaigner in question... I don't think so, though, it was just an example of the general panic as far as I recall.)

[Magicus]

If I were in your shoes, I would make sure to stress the similarities between RPGs and collective storytelling... The nature of the conflict between good and evil, the conscience of the characters, etc. really do depend on the type of story that you're generating. If you wanted to come up with a Warhammer 40K game based on acting properly and living righteously, I'm sure you could... somehow.

On an unrelated note, blood for the blood god.

[WalkingTarget]

(I know that Tom Hanks movie "Mazes and Monsters" was part of the general hubub, but I can't recall if it was based on the same death that drove the campaigner in question... I don't think so, though, it was just an example of the general panic as far as I recall.)

That was about the steam tunnel incident. Not having to do with any cults or anything, but it didn't exactly help the image of RPGs either.

[Stormthorn]

I've been wondering, what's the source of the "D&D is Satanism" thing, really?

Jack Chick.

He also has a problem with neo-pagans. (note that satan appears to have a cape of some sort)

Specificly, this is where he deals with DnD.

[yilduz]

ask her if the white pieces in chess have an inherent moral leaning, or if the car in monopoly has some kind of spiritual implications you should be aware of.

From my experience, sarcasm on that level never really works with parents.

[kamikasei]

Jack Chick.

In fact no - though that tract may have helped popularize the notion. It didn't originate with him, though.

That was about the steam tunnel incident. Not having to do with any cults or anything, but it didn't exactly help the image of RPGs either.

That's what I thought... essentially, there was a perception that RPGs rendered kids unable to distinguish fantasy from reality, leading them in to dangerous situations. Not sure whether the perception predated or was largely caused by the false claims of BADD and Patricial Pulling.

Anyway, it's not the essay I was thinking of, but it's probably a more suitable one for this purpose: here.

[Stormthorn]

In fact no - though that tract may have helped popularize the notion. It didn't originate with him, though.

I edited my post to include his tract on RPGs.

While it happened after the origional Steam Tunnel Incident i think its fair to say that his plublicity for the idea that DnD makes you a suicidal satanist has been a huge influence on its place in urban myth.


Jakc Chick and that movie with Tom Hanks are the reason its in popular culture.

[shadzar]

I've been wondering, what's the source of the "D&D is Satanism" thing, really?

Maybe older than this, but this is the earliest I know of from 1984.

Well clicked preview and it posted then didn't show me the post to edit it....

D&D is just a game like hopscotch. You only take out of it what you bring into it.

Like any program on TV, or any other activity. you get out what you put in.

You just are the doggy from the Monopoly game, in the game world. It is no different than acting in a movie or play when you play because that is what it is. Like playing Cops and Robbers, you act as if you were this character while playing.

[Telonius]

if it's warhammer 40K, just tell her it's like chess but with far more elaborate pieces. If she's still concerned about the morality of the game, ask her if the white pieces in chess have an inherent moral leaning, or if the car in monopoly has some kind of spiritual implications you should be aware of.

of course, as long as you keep her away from the actual in-game brutality material it is drawn from, you'll be okay. But yeah, WH40K is known for it's grimdark goofiness.

Well, part of the problem might not be the pieces, but the game itself. If you go into it thinking that Monopoly encourages materialism and helps the hegemony keep down the proletariat, then talking about the in-game moral worth of the car vs. the hat isn't going to help much. If she's coming at it from the same place as people who say Harry Potter encourages sin and witchcraft, then there's not much you're going to be able to say to it without totally lying.

But, if she's just worried that her kid is going to fall in with a group of anarchists and Columbine wannabes, then that's a little easier to fix. Explain to her that a gaming session is more like collaborative acting. The players can make of it whatever they want - yeah, it can be GoreFest 6, but it can also be Wizard of Oz or Lawrence of Arabia. Introduce her to your gaming group, and their parents (if that would help). Basically, recognize where she's coming from - she's your mom, and she wants to make sure her child is safe. The more you respect her right to be worried about that, the better off the negotiations will go.

[Stormthorn]

Maybe older than this, but this is the earliest I know of from 1984.

Well clicked preview and it posted then didn't show me the post to edit it....

D&D is just a game like hopscotch. You only take out of it what you bring into it.

Like any program on TV, or any other activity. you get out what you put in.

You just are the doggy from the Monopoly game, in the game world. It is no different than acting in a movie or play when you play because that is what it is. Like playing Cops and Robbers, you act as if you were this character while playing.

I already posted that chick track. His involvment is now disputed.


I dont get why Debbie gave up paganism. In Chicks universe the magic really works and, beyond that, she properly cited the wiccan rede about doing what you want as long as your not hurting anyone.

[Callista]

You could show her the Order of the Stick comic. Definitely good-and-evil there.

Actually, have her sit in on a session, maybe even join if the learning curve's not too steep. A lot of those unfounded fears evaporate pretty quickly when you see a bunch of kids geeking it up pretending to be medieval heroes.

[Kyeudo]

I've been wondering, what's the source of the "D&D is Satanism" thing, really?

In all honesty? Patricia Pulling. She was spreading lies about satanism in D&D long before Jack Chick got started.


If you want a good read of various stories about how people dealt with this sort of negative press that roleplaying in general has, check out this thread on the Wizard's site. It has a ton of great stories,

[Athaniar]

You could show her the Order of the Stick comic. Definitely good-and-evil there.

Although Belkar may not be the right kind of character for that purpose...

[valadil]

A few weeks ago I saw an article about this topic. The concerned mom decided to ask at church. Her priest decided to look into the matter by buying the books and reading about D&D. He thought it was interesting but confusing. Eventually they gathered up a group of priests to watch the game. They were impressed with how educational it was and decided to throw regularly scheduled games at church. Sorry I can't find a link to the article.

You might want to try letting her listen to or watch a game. It would probably be awkward if she sat in on one of yours so maybe you could find a youtube video or podcast of what actually happens in an RPG.

[bosssmiley]

In all honesty? Patricia Pulling. She was spreading lies about satanism in D&D long before Jack Chick got started.

And here is Michael Stackpole (calmly, and with footnotes) showing Patricia Pulling up for the hysterical, blame-displacing, evidence-fabricating hate machine that she was. Go Mike!

@OP: D&D is a game of heroic fantasy. If your friend's parent ever saw "Jason and the Argonauts" or "Sinbad" in the 60s/70s, "Conan" or "Dragonslayer" in the 80s, or "Lord of the Rings" a few years back, then they'll have a vague idea of what D&D is about.

There's scholarly evidence that RPGs can actually improve behavioural problems; and can encourage the acquisition of maths, language, reasoning, and social skills.

As for the sheer breadth of knowledge role-playing gives you. Let's put it this way: what other hobby can give you a grounding in history, anthropology, mythology and folklore, basic economics, architecture, political science, and numismatism as a side-effect of play? (Shamus Young of 20-sided did this rant better than I could, but unfortunately the link escapes me atm)

[shadzar]

I already posted that chick track. His involvment is now disputed.

Not knowing anything about this Chick person other than that comic, I cannot comment further on it but I remembered the later incident that might have given D&D a bad look to it that may have been carried too far by some dactions.

Steam tunnel incident that occurred in the late 70's, probably began the myth of D&D being bad for people....but people always said TV was bad, and computers would never become popular enough for people to have them at home also....

[warrl]

I think it was sometime in the early to mid 80s and someone interviewing Gygax - not sure about any of that - but anyone, it was a media interview of someone relating to D&D, and the interviewer asked about the number of suicides among teenage D&D players (which was a part of the big media fuss at the time).

The person being interviewed had researched this question and showed that said number was probably *low* to a statistically significant degree. That is, a preliminary review of the data using certain reasonable assumptions indicated that teenagers who played D&D were less likely to commit suicide than teenagers who did not.

[mikeejimbo]

Real occultists laugh at Jack Chick. Very loudly and long. They also laugh at D&D, but more of a "How amusing that they got it wrong", sort of like when you watch movies with giant insects. At least D&D isn't supposed to be like real occultism.

Chick also hates Masons. And Catholics. And Harry Potter. And...

I dont get why Debbie gave up paganism. In Chicks universe the magic really works and, beyond that, she properly cited the wiccan rede about doing what you want as long as your not hurting anyone.

Well, the Wiccan rede was pretty much stolen from Crowley, and even I think he was creepy. I would have advocated her giving up neo-paganism for a different magick discipline myself, but if she's happy with it I can't really complain.

[Irreverent Fool]

Personally, I'd be more concerned with the lessons taught by Monopoly. Acting as a greedy landlord who has the sole goal of bankrupting everyone he knows in order to own all of the marketable property seems pretty sinister to me.

I can't contribute meaningfully to this, but I endorse the above, especially bosssmiley's post.

obnoxious
sig

[erikun]

I've been wondering, what's the source of the "D&D is Satanism" thing, really?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dungeon...tricia_Pulling

You can thank Ms. Pulling for starting the trend, although to be fair, somebody was going to start saying something eventually. (see: Jack Chick) Heck, didn't someone go around saying Jazz was corrupting our youth?

[Edit] And that's what I get for not reading the rest of the responses before posting. Bleh....

[Devils_Advocate]

There's always a New Rock and Roll. Currently video games, but this has been around since fricking Socrates was accused of "corrupting the youth".

[elliott20]

This trend also happened to the comic book industry, (there was a book called "seduction of innocence" on this very topic) which basically led to it's eventual strict censoring and the industrial collapse and it didn't really start to recover until the 60s.