DMs, what would you do?

[Eon]

I was in my friends game today and we were in the 4.0 DMG premade adventure. We got to the 4th? room when all we saw was a boulder and a wall in the center. Me, thinking there was enemies up there and being a awesome archer ranger, fired an arrow up there and rolled a natural 20. Because my friend said a critical is when you aim and hit something he counted it as a normal die roll but also gave me a -10 to the roll making it a miss. I saw this as unfair. What would you have done?

[FoE]

What was the ranger aiming for? The boulder.

"Congratulations. You struck the boulder. The arrow bounces off and shatters. Remember to deduct that arrow from your Character Sheet."

[Eon]

anything up there or beyond in the room below (which we found out about when the rogue went up)

[Yuki Akuma]

...

What was the archer shooting? You need to actually specify a target in 4e.

anything up there or beyond in the room below (which we found out about when the rogue went up)

Yeah, that... that doesn't work. Really. I wouldn't have even let you roll the die - there is no way you would have hit anything because you weren't attacking anything.

[Kurald Galain]

archer ranger, fired an arrow up there and rolled a D20. Because my friend said a critical is when you aim and hit something he counted it as a normal die roll but also gave me a -10 to the roll making it a miss.

I'm missing something here.

He fired an arrow at what? What did he roll? Why is it relevant what a "critical" is? Why the -10, and what did he miss?

[Eon]

well since we were technically in combat and I figured that might be a good idea it was worth a shot.

[Eon]

oops forgot to add that I rolled a natural 20

[Yuki Akuma]

If you did it in combat it's even worse.

I could maybe excuse shooting an arrow "out of combat" and seeing if it hits anything, but in combat? You have to at least target a square, rather than "that area over there".

[FoE]

So you walked into a room and thought "Hey, there might be a monster nearby!" And then the ranger fired an arrow at nothing in particular, somehow assuming that it would just, you know, hit something?

...

Yeah, you guys need to stop drinking while you play D&D.

[evisiron]

If you are not choosing a specific target you can see, you generally can't get a critical.

And if I understand the post right, you were firing indirectly, so a penalty seems like a sound idea. From what I have read, I would have done the same thing as DM.

[erikun]

Well, the first problem is that you're asking how I'd rule on a houserule only your DM uses - I'm not quite sure how I'd answer that, as I wouldn't use the rule to begin with.

Secondly, if you decided to shoot "anything up there" and there wasn't anything there, your shot would just go over the boulder and hit the far wall; simple enough. If you were hoping for a lucky shot to hit a kobold on the other side, I'd say your DM was being generous: a -10 to hit something you weren't aiming at and didn't know was there is a pretty good deal. (As I said, I would rule your arrow just hit the far wall, which would alert whatever is over there, if the fighting hadn't already.)

[Kurald Galain]

oops forgot to add that I rolled a natural 20

In that case I would have let you hit whatever creature was up there, yes (assuming there was one to begin with). But by a strict reading of the rules, you wouldn't. DM's call, honestly.

[Eon]

okay thanks for the clarification guys...


and no we were not drinking, it just seemed like a good idea at the time

[Yuki Akuma]

In that case I would have let you hit whatever creature was up there, yes (assuming there was one to begin with). But by a strict reading of the rules, you wouldn't. DM's call, honestly.

Why? He wasn't really rolling for anything. He was "shooting an arrow into a random area" - which is an automatic success and doesn't require a roll. It also doesn't achieve anything in particular except maybe a broken arrow.

[-Cor-]

I don't think I would've given you anything for that poke and hope other than you wasted an arrow... even rolling a 20.

If you aimed at a specific square and there was something in that square, a -10 seems reasonable because, and correct me if I'm wrong which I may be as I don't have a screen in front of me, Superior Cover provides a -5... and Total Concealment is a -5... while something typically only benefits from one, I'd say they'd stack in this case.

[Kurald Galain]

Why? He wasn't really rolling for anything. He was "shooting an arrow into a random area" - which is an automatic success and doesn't require a roll.

Why? Because I like having funky stuff happen on a crit or fumble. When a player does something unusual and crits, I try to at least fluff it like he did something awesome (or, in case of fumble, something awkward). E.g. if this were outdoors, he could have hit a bird overhead, thus ensuring dinner for the night.

[Yuki Akuma]

So if you were, say, in a totally different scene outdoors, and one of your players randomly rolled a die for no reason and said "I make a Perception check! Hah, natural 20!", what would you do?

It really comes down to the same thing. A player is rolling the dice for no adequately explored reason.

[-Cor-]

So if you were, say, in a totally different scene outdoors, and one of your players randomly rolled a die for no reason and said "I make a Perception check! Hah, natural 20!", what would you do?

You finally recognize the exact shape of that microscopic piece of dust that's been suspended in your eye fluid that every time you try to focus on it, it floats away.

Congratulations...

Alternatively... Hey! That tree stump looks like Pelor!

[Kurald Galain]

So if you were, say, in a totally different scene outdoors, and one of your players randomly rolled a die for no reason and said "I make a Perception check! Hah, natural 20!", what would you do?

If the player rolls a die for no reason, nothing happens.

If the character tries something unusual and the player rolls a crit, something nice happens.

A subtle distinction. The key is, of course, that if players do this all the friggin' time (which in my experience they never do) then it wouldn't work.

[Yuki Akuma]

That's actually not dust. How would dust get in there? It's just a coagulation of your eye fluid.

There's a proper name for it but it escapes me right now.

Most people have them at some point or another. Most of the time they just dissolve back into the fluid, although I've had one that's been with me for over ten years now...

(Wow that was off-topic.)

[Froogleyboy]

Is this the same game that you wanted to quit?

[-Cor-]

That's actually not dust. How would dust get in there? It's just a coagulation of your eye fluid.

There's a proper name for it but it escapes me right now.

Oh dear Ioun, you knew what I was talking about...

[erikun]

oops forgot to add that I rolled a natural 20

Ah, missed this part.

In that case, I'd let you hit whatever was standing up there. Nat-20 is supposed to be a lucky shot, after all.

I still wouldn't let you hit anything behind the rock, though.

[Bibliomancer]

Rolling a natural 20 on Perception is different, because even out of game it would be an excuse for the DM to tell them something interesting about thier surroundings. As for a natural 20 attack roll at nothing, I would probably say "Congratulations. You hit a mosquito."

[Flickerdart]

Natural 20 for Perception would have the DM launch into a long tirade about the flora, fauna, the quality of road cobbles and the backstory of the scenic signpost, bust still forget to mention the enemy army you walked into.

[Yuki Akuma]

Natural 20 for Perception would have the DM launch into a long tirade about the flora, fauna, the quality of road cobbles and the backstory of the scenic signpost, bust still forget to mention the enemy army you walked into.

Your DM was Tolkien?

[amanamana]

...

Yeah, you guys need to stop drinking while you play D&D.

Hehehehehe... I remember a GURPS Supers game, maybe 10 years ago, high-powered. A group of 5 players and a GM, all wasted... we burned LA down!
That was fun! The part I remember, at least...

[Kurald Galain]

Natural 20 for Perception would have the DM launch into a long tirade about the flora, fauna, the quality of road cobbles and the backstory of the scenic signpost, bust still forget to mention the enemy army you walked into.

Hm, that sounds familiar. I have had at least two DMs who would give a lengthy over-a-minute description of a room and detailed depictions of all the tapestries and candelabras therein, and then end with "oh yeah, there's also a dragon in the middle" as an afterthought.

[Flickerdart]

Hm, that sounds familiar. I have had at least two DMs who would give a lengthy over-a-minute description of a room and detailed depictions of all the tapestries and candelabras therein, and then end with "oh yeah, there's also a dragon in the middle" as an afterthought.

Well, sure, everyone knows what a dragon looks like, but candelabras? That stuff you gotta hear about.

[Swordguy]

Hm, that sounds familiar. I have had at least two DMs who would give a lengthy over-a-minute description of a room and detailed depictions of all the tapestries and candelabras therein, and then end with "oh yeah, there's also a dragon in the middle" as an afterthought.

Well, that's understandable. The GM has 2 choices. Describe the room first and the dragon last, so the players actually get a picture of the room in which they'll be fighting (to avoid these sorts of questions coming up in the combat). Or describe the dragon first and the room last, with the understanding that the players aren't going to listen to a word you say after "dragon".

Really, it's a no-win scenario for the GM.