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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Rules that don't make sense

    Thread for little rules that don't make sense as written.

    From the 'No quickened spell for you!' department:

    "A sorcerer still must take a full-round action when using a metamagic rod, just as if using a metamagic feat he possesses."

    How does this make sense? I mean, ok, in principle you can say applying metamagic on the spot takes time (also applies to bards, which this doesn't), but then shouldn't it take a full round action for anyone to use a metamagic rod? The reason sorcerers need a full round action is because they use metamagic differently. With a rod, everyone uses it the same way, so it should work the same for everyone.

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    Default Re: Rules that don't make sense

    -Drowning rules.

    -negative hp => 1 hp => Back on action! (Known as the "It's just a flesh wound rule")

    Throwing damage, silly hulking hurler.
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    Default Re: Rules that don't make sense

    Nah, this rule makes perfect sense. If you're not a Wizard, WotC hates you. Thus, this.
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    I'm going to be honest, "the Welsh became a Great Power and conquered Germany" is almost exactly the opposite of the explanation I was expecting

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    Default Re: Rules that don't make sense

    3.0?

    naked rogue using evasion... against a fireball... cast in the center of a featureless (IE: empty room, no cracks in floor or anything) 10x10x10 room... and not taking any damage.

    falling damage. 20d6, or 120 max damage cap. a 13th level fighter with 18 con and average HP can survive orbital re-entry without fear of dying (128 HP avg).

    it should be noted that a lot of D&D rules (any edition) don't make any sense at all when you start thinking about them in any logical sense. why do they work?

    because it's D&D.

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    Default Re: Rules that don't make sense

    Quote Originally Posted by oxybe View Post
    it should be noted that a lot of D&D rules (any edition) don't make any sense at all when you start thinking about them in any logical sense. why do they work?

    because it's D&D.
    Words of truth right there. It's called fantasy for a reason. Don't play Dungeons and Dragons if you're looking for strait-up realism, play Offices and Bosses.

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    Default Re: Rules that don't make sense

    Healing spells.

    Hit points represent your ability to roll with the punches, your ability to grit your teeth and endure wounds that would make a lesser man curl up in pain, and pure, blind luck.

    So why, then, does it take more to heal a dagger wound on a 10th level Fighter than on a 1st level Commoner?
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    Default Re: Rules that don't make sense

    Quote Originally Posted by Yuki_Akuma View Post
    Healing spells.

    Hit points represent your ability to roll with the punches, your ability to grit your teeth and endure wounds that would make a lesser man curl up in pain, and pure, blind luck.

    So why, then, does it take more to heal a dagger wound on a 10th level Fighter than on a 1st level Commoner?
    If a 10th level Fighter has to worry about healing from a dagger wound, then he drew the short end of the stick there ;p
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    Default Re: Rules that don't make sense

    Quote Originally Posted by Talon Sky View Post
    If a 10th level Fighter has to worry about healing from a dagger wound, then he drew the short end of the stick there ;p
    ...You seem to have misunderstood me.

    On a 10th level Fighter, a dagger wound to the gut might represent 40 hit points, if it's the result of mortal combat with a single dagger-wielding Rogue. Not every hit is actually a wound.

    On a Commoner, that same wound might just be 1 or 2 hit points. And yet... the Commoner is fine after a first-level Cleric casts Cure Light Wounds on him, yet the Fighter needs several applications - or a higher-level spell. To recover from the same wound.
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    Quote Originally Posted by archaeo View Post
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    Default Re: Rules that don't make sense

    Quote Originally Posted by Yuki_Akuma View Post
    Healing spells.

    Hit points represent your ability to roll with the punches, your ability to grit your teeth and endure wounds that would make a lesser man curl up in pain, and pure, blind luck.

    So why, then, does it take more to heal a dagger wound on a 10th level Fighter than on a 1st level Commoner?
    How?

    Specifically, How does a Commoner survive the Dagger wound?
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    Default Re: Rules that don't make sense

    He made his stabilization roll?

    A dagger wound is, on average, 2.5 HP of damage. Maybe a bit more if it's wielded by a strong guy.

    Your average Commoner has... 2 HP. So a knife wound will likely Disable him, or even knock him out, but he'll still have a chance of pulling through.
    Last edited by Yuki Akuma; 2009-07-07 at 11:37 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by archaeo View Post
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keld Denar View Post
    +3 Girlfriend is totally unoptimized. You are better off with a +1 Keen Witty girlfriend and then appling Greater Magic Make-up to increase her enhancement bonus.
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    Default Re: Rules that don't make sense

    Wich reminds me of CR, yeah, that makes no sense, specially if we are talking about PC's, I can hardly believe that the 20th lvl truenamer represents as much of a threat as the 20th lvl wizard.
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    Sane.... isn't the word I'd use with you, Coplantor. Or myself, in fact. With myself, I'd say obssessive. With you, I'd say.... Coplantor.


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    Default Re: Rules that don't make sense

    A light crossbow can be used and loaded by almost anyone, since it's a simple weapon. It comes with a special tool you need to reload it.

    A hand crossbow is reloaded by pulling the string back by hand. It's a very complicated weapon: even fighters can't use it without special training since it's an exotic weapon.

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    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Rules that don't make sense

    Quote Originally Posted by Coplantor View Post
    -Drowning rules.
    I do still have to ask just what is wrong with the drowning rules. If you think you can go from negative to zero by "intentionally failing" (incidentally: no such mechanic) a check, you're reading it wrong.

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    Default Re: Rules that don't make sense

    The basic D&D combat mechanic, where "hits" and "misses" aren't necessarily actual hits or misses, and damage isn't necessarily actual damage, and armor makes you harder to hit while being a skilled fighter makes you able to absorb many times more punishment, rather than the reverse, makes no sense whatsoever. There's an awful lot of collateral damage to suspension of disbelief from that.
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    Default Re: Rules that don't make sense

    Most of the Monty Python rules in 4th edition.

    Cleric shouts "its only a flesh wound" to heal someone.

    Any amount of damage is healed with a good nights rest. I know time heals all wounds, but 6 hours? Really?

    All those things.

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    Default Re: Rules that don't make sense

    Quote Originally Posted by Random832 View Post
    "intentionally failing" (incidentally: no such mechanic)
    You don't need any special mechanic to fail; it's a DC 10 Con check, +1 DC per round, so if you just take 10 you are guaranteed to fail in [Con bonus+1] rounds.
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    Quote Originally Posted by abadguy View Post
    Darn you PoDL for making me care about a bunch of NPC Commoners!
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    I'm pretty sure turning Waterdeep into a sheet of glass wasn't the best win condition for that fight. We lived though!
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    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Rules that don't make sense

    You can't take ten in this situation... but granted that you'll eventually fail whether you're rolling dice or taking ten against a constantly increasing DC. And if you're already unconscious, the other players won't be able to pull you out in time (after falling unconscious, but before dying) rather than let you die without metagaming*. So, DM just rolls the Con checks in secret and doesn't say anything until you die two rounds later.

    *as if you weren't already - but requiring them to see your die roll results and HP total removes the lawyery interpretation that "Well, this happens in this universe, so someone will have observed and documented that you can dunk a dying person's head in the water for twelve seconds and they'll be stable and just unconscious, as a basic first aid technique"

    Though none of this matters since the text ("falls unconscious") still doesn't support the interpretation ("stabilize and heal up to 0HP").
    Last edited by Random832; 2009-07-07 at 12:16 PM.

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    Default Re: Rules that don't make sense

    Quote Originally Posted by PairO'Dice Lost View Post
    You don't need any special mechanic to fail; it's a DC 10 Con check, +1 DC per round, so if you just take 10 you are guaranteed to fail in [Con bonus+1] rounds.
    And then the DM chucks his DMG at you. Even if you actually believe this rule means you can raise your HP to 0 (I don't think so), no one would ever apply it this way in a real game.

    Healing spells are a bit funky though.

    As for the sorcerers and quicken thing, ya it doesn't make sense if you think about it. It does help balance though. Sorcerers have way too many spell slots to let you blow 2 of them every round. They don't mind, and then stuff breaks. Then again I think there's something in PHB 2 that says, "Oh, here, have quicken spell anyway." And then you have a dragonborn kobold sorcerer with it, and I think a few steps of excessive pity after that we got Pun-pun.
    Last edited by ericgrau; 2009-07-07 at 12:22 PM.
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    Default Re: Rules that don't make sense

    actually you can fail a save voluntarily. i don't have my 3.5 rules compendium here, but i do remember seeing that. i believe you can voluntarily fail a check as well.

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    Default Re: Rules that don't make sense

    Quote Originally Posted by Random832 View Post
    I do still have to ask just what is wrong with the drowning rules. If you think you can go from negative to zero by "intentionally failing" (incidentally: no such mechanic) a check, you're reading it wrong.
    Indeed, I dont allow the drown yourself to get healed thing, I think this is more of a rules lawyers thing than the actual rule.
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    Default Re: Rules that don't make sense

    Quote Originally Posted by Originally posted by the SRD
    Drowning

    Any character can hold her breath for a number of rounds equal to twice her Constitution score. After this period of time, the character must make a DC 10 Constitution check every round in order to continue holding her breath. Each round, the DC increases by 1. See also: Swim skill description.

    When the character finally fails her Constitution check, she begins to drown. In the first round, she falls unconscious (0 hp). In the following round, she drops to -1 hit points and is dying. In the third round, she drowns.

    It is possible to drown in substances other than water, such as sand, quicksand, fine dust, and silos full of grain.
    So, you drop down/up to 0hp and are unconcious in the first round. In the second round, you drop to -1hit points and are dying. In the third round, you drown.

    Not only does it seem to raise you up to 0hp, but you then begin dying and drown, whether you are removed from the bucket or not, because it doesn't actually state any way to STOP drowning.

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    Default Re: Rules that don't make sense

    Quote Originally Posted by Random832 View Post
    Though none of this matters since the text ("falls unconscious") still doesn't support the interpretation ("stabilize and heal up to 0HP").
    The text says "In the first round, she falls unconscious (0 hp). In the following round, she drops to -1 hit points and is dying." Maybe it was a stupid assumption of the designers that you'd always start drowning while conscious, but by the rules falling unconscious while drowning puts you at 0 HP.
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    Default Re: Rules that don't make sense

    Hmm, 0 HP is a parenthetical remark so I don't think even a stupidly literal interpretation of the rules actual gives you 0 HP. Rather it's reminding you of the effect of falling unconscious. If a specific situation is different, then the reminder does not apply.
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    Default Re: Rules that don't make sense

    Quote Originally Posted by shadzar View Post
    Most of the Monty Python rules in 4th edition.

    Cleric shouts "its only a flesh wound" to heal someone.

    Any amount of damage is healed with a good nights rest. I know time heals all wounds, but 6 hours? Really?

    All those things.
    this existed in previous editions also. the healer burns all his leftover spells or uses up his wand of curing until natural healing is enough to take over.

    note that there are no rules for broken/lost limbs, any actually debilitating wound or whatever in either 3rd ed or 4th ed to my knowledge.

    i always considered most HP damage superficial at best since HP in D&D is an abstract concept similar to Plot Armor, basically your character's ability to keep soldiering on in the face of adversity. once they actually die, that's when your skull is caved in, that arrow pierces your heart, the orc guts you with his axe or whatever.

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    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Rules that don't make sense

    Quote Originally Posted by oxybe View Post
    actually you can fail a save voluntarily. i don't have my 3.5 rules compendium here, but i do remember seeing that.
    In the SRD, this is for saving throws against spells only.

    Quote Originally Posted by PairO'Dice Lost View Post
    The text says "In the first round, she falls unconscious (0 hp). In the following round, she drops to -1 hit points and is dying." Maybe it was a stupid assumption of the designers that you'd always start drowning while conscious, but by the rules falling unconscious while drowning puts you at 0 HP.
    "falls" does not mean your HP rises. And you can't fall unconscious when you're already unconscious, and if you have 0 or less HP you are unconscious.
    Last edited by Random832; 2009-07-07 at 12:34 PM.

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    Default Re: Rules that don't make sense

    Quote Originally Posted by ericgrau View Post
    As for the sorcerers and quicken thing, ya it doesn't make sense if you think about it. It does help balance though. Sorcerers have way too many spell slots to let you blow 2 of them every round. They don't mind, and then stuff breaks. Then again I think there's something in PHB 2 that says, "Oh, here, have quicken spell anyway." And then you have a dragonborn kobold sorcerer with it, and I think a few steps of excessive pity after that we got Pun-pun.
    There's something in Complete Arcane that lets Sorcerers Quicken spells (nothing says you need to be able to use a metamagic feat to take it, so Sorcerers can qualify for Sudden Quicken).

    Also, Pun-Pun uses polymorph cheese.
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    Quote Originally Posted by archaeo View Post
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    Default Re: Rules that don't make sense

    Quote Originally Posted by Random832 View Post
    "falls" does not mean your HP rises. And you can't fall unconscious when you're already unconscious, and if you have 0 or less HP you are unconscious.
    Wouldn't the diehard feat solve this problem? Wich is also a preq for the frenzied berserker, the PrC that abuses the most of the drowning rule?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Fullbladder, Master of Goblins View Post
    Sane.... isn't the word I'd use with you, Coplantor. Or myself, in fact. With myself, I'd say obssessive. With you, I'd say.... Coplantor.


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    Default Re: Rules that don't make sense

    Quote Originally Posted by John Campbell View Post
    The basic D&D combat mechanic, where "hits" and "misses" aren't necessarily actual hits or misses,
    They aren't necessarily actual hits or misses except when your weapon is poisoned...
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    Default Re: Rules that don't make sense

    Quote Originally Posted by oxybe View Post
    this existed in previous editions also. the healer burns all his leftover spells or uses up his wand of curing until natural healing is enough to take over.

    note that there are no rules for broken/lost limbs, any actually debilitating wound or whatever in either 3rd ed or 4th ed to my knowledge.

    i always considered most HP damage superficial at best since HP in D&D is an abstract concept similar to Plot Armor, basically your character's ability to keep soldiering on in the face of adversity. once they actually die, that's when your skull is caved in, that arrow pierces your heart, the orc guts you with his axe or whatever.
    I don't know much anymore about 3.x, but I don't think you healed completely over night. previous editions gained you 1 HP per day of rest.

    Instant heal didn't exist before 4th, even if magic could heal quicker.

    But the healing word is silly and makes no sense as written. If it were a bit more divine then maybe, but mustering healing with just shouting at someone don't fly. Cells don't regenerate because you yell at them.

    Magic makes sense because it is magical rather than trying to effect some natural healing by saying something without any other stimuli.

    You have an unconscious person and just shout at them to make them jump up from being half dead?

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