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Thread: Rules that don't make sense
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2009-07-07, 06:00 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2005
Re: Rules that don't make sense
Hit points don't represent anything that anyone has in real life. They represent the ability of a cinematic fantasy hero to survive things that would kill real-life people extremely dead and be just fine.
Hit point loss isn't injury. It works like injury in that if enough of it happens to you, you eventually fall down. It works unlike injury in that it doesn't penalize your ability to do anything. You can lose an arbitrarily high amount of HP depending on your level, and so long as your current HP stays over zero, you function just fine. It takes a special weapon property (Wounding) to get people to actually bleed significantly when you slice them with your sword.
Hit point loss isn't dodging or rolling with punches. A character keeps his hit points when he's paralyzed. They protect a character from not only falling damage, but from being submerged in lava. And, of course, it takes more healing magic to heal a buttload of hit points worth of damage, indicating that a higher-level character's damage isn't more superficial.
It's fine to think of D&D as a simulation, so long as you remember that it's not remotely a simulation of the real world. It's a simulation of a fantastic world where even non-magical things don't work like stuff does in reality. It's a non-reductionistic world where thinks like Evil, Strength, Fire, Flight, etc. aren't just abstractions of lots of little things acting together, and most certainly do not interact with everything like they do in real life. So a character really can just go and improve her Ability to Weather Damage through practice without diminishing returns over time.
This all makes it rather comical when someone complains about hit points working unrealistically in 4th Edition in particular. They were completely realistic already! "Hit points don't work realistically" is a good criticism of D&D in general, but there's something wrong with your thinking if you think it's a way that 4th Ed is worse than 3rd. You can't have less realism than zero.
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2009-07-07, 06:09 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2007
Re: Rules that don't make sense
Hit points do make a very limited for of sense when approached in a certain way. Something like "cumulative wounds imparing fighting ability" is very rarely seen in real life. You can't kill someone by slapping them on the cheek, regardless of much it hurts. An injury needs to be pretty substantial to actually stop someone cold.
If hitpoints represent bruises and nicks and fatigue from combat, they start making sense. Also this helps making magical healing more logical.
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2009-07-07, 06:19 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2005
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Re: Rules that don't make sense
It's magic, it's not supposed to make sense.
A related handwave was that wizards can't use swords because they aren't strong enough - regardless of what their actual strength score is.
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2009-07-07, 06:23 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2008
Re: Rules that don't make sense
Well they can, they just don't do it very well.
Not much point in training with a sword when you can chuck a fireball just by putting a match to bat poo.
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2009-07-07, 06:34 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2007
Re: Rules that don't make sense
Guide to the Magus, the Pathfinder Gish class.
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2009-07-07, 06:43 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2006
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- Sunnydale
Re: Rules that don't make sense
Surely they can. It just takes them much longer to learn those gesture patterns.
I've got a friend who's DEX-challenged. It takes her a long time to learn to use new tools. But she's a good typist because she invested the extra time needed for her to develop the skill.
D&D doesn't care about the details of learning skills -- just about the use of those skills when the fur is flying (in combat).
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2009-07-07, 06:46 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2004
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- The Land of Angles
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2009-07-07, 06:55 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2005
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- Reading, England
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Re: Rules that don't make sense
That the Elves' favoured class is Wizard, rather than Rogue. Consider the following racial features:-
+2 Dexterity, -2 Constitution
DEX is the primary attribute of Rogues whereas it's INT for Wizards.
Weapon Proficiency: Elves receive the Martial Weapon Proficiency feats for the longsword, rapier, longbow (including composite longbow), and shortbow (including composite shortbow) as bonus feats.
Better weapons are handy for classes that aren't full spellcasters but little benefit for Wizards, who rely on spells.
+2 racial bonus on Listen, Search, and Spot checks. An elf who merely passes within 5 feet of a secret or concealed door is entitled to a Search check to notice it as if she were actively looking for it.
Essential skills for Rogues but cross-class skills for Wizards. The use of Search to find secret doors plays to a Rogue's strength but Wizards are grateful they can find their own spellbook in the morning.
So Elves have racial abilities that make them good scouts but their natural inclination is to read arcane texts. Right.Matthew Greet
My purpose in life is to play games.
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2009-07-07, 06:56 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2007
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- Texas...for now
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Re: Rules that don't make sense
Yeah, no. Tolkien had no rules to his magic, it was just powerful and unknowable to the average person(and reader). Eragon at least has rules to the magic.
Note: I am not in any way supporting Eragon. Marty Stu, Dues ex Machina*oo, author's soapbox, and fridge logic all conspie to make it the worst assault on literature since Twilight, but at least the magic system made some sense.[/sarcasm]
FAQ is not RAW!Avatar by the incredible CrimsonAngel.
Saph:It's surprising how many problems can be solved by one druid spell combined with enough aggression.
I play primarily 3.5 D&D. Most of my advice will be based off of this. If my advice doesn't apply, specify a version in your post.
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2009-07-07, 07:02 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2005
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- Reading, England
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Re: Rules that don't make sense
That Zombies, like Golems, have INT 0, making them mindless and incapable of moral choice, but, unlike Golems, are always Neutral Evil.
Matthew Greet
My purpose in life is to play games.
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2009-07-07, 07:05 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2008
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2009-07-07, 07:06 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2007
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- Metro Manila, Philippines
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Re: Rules that don't make sense
Elves are the most confused race ever. This is why WOTC tried to separate them into the hippies (Elves) and snooties (Eladrin) in 4E. Not to say that I actually like what they did, but it makes more sense than the really bizarre "elves are better at everything" idea that 3.5 carries.
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2009-07-07, 07:15 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2008
Re: Rules that don't make sense
Try this in armor and tell me how you do.
0:30, 1:21, 1:39 are pretty intricate. Something akin to what a wizard might do.
Try this one as well at that speed with that accuracy in any kind of armor and gauntlets.
I know, I know. Naruto? But it's a good simulation of what a caster has to do to cast. In the middle of combat. With no mistakes. Also have to add in the arm waving. Don't for get the arm waving.Last edited by Hat-Trick; 2009-07-07 at 07:17 PM.
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2009-07-07, 07:18 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2008
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2009-07-07, 07:19 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2008
Re: Rules that don't make sense
No argument, just saying that the arcane spell failure makes sense.
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2009-07-07, 07:20 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2004
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- The Land of Angles
Re: Rules that don't make sense
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2009-07-07, 07:22 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2008
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2009-07-07, 07:23 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2004
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- The Land of Angles
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2009-07-07, 07:25 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2008
Re: Rules that don't make sense
The rules do say hands or the caster's equivalent.
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2009-07-07, 07:25 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2009
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2009-07-07, 07:27 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2005
Re: Rules that don't make sense
What doesn't make sense there is that characters only ever suffer relatively minor wounds from near-misses instead of more serious injuries. There's a spell for restoring a lost limb, but no rules for losing a limb in the first place. Only half of that makes sense.
A caster can blind someone with a spell, and a Rogue can reduce someone's Strength with Crippling Strike, but a Fighter only chips away at hit points by making normal weapon attacks. This is why direct damage is so often a relatively poor strategy in 3E: It's unrealistically lacking in immediate effects.
That "mindless" automatons like zombies and golems are either capable of understanding their masters' orders, or capable of following orders without understanding them. Int 0 creatures should not respond more intelligently to language than INt 2 creatures.
Alignment is supposed to represent a creature's general moral and personal attitudes, or its behavior, or... something. Actually, it's not clear what it's supposed to represent -- and that lack of clarity is itself something that doesn't make sense, since the alignment system is supposed to be usable. But there's no interpretation of alignment under which golems and zombies ought to have different alignments, if they're both just blindly obedient automatons.
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2009-07-07, 07:33 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2008
Re: Rules that don't make sense
soooo
what you're saying is that it's harder to do these movements while wearing padded armor, than with 3 dex, being drunk, having got your fingers cut off and shaking?
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2009-07-07, 07:34 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2008
Re: Rules that don't make sense
A larger size category weapon doesn't give you reach. I know arms count for something, but your telling me if I am holding an animesque BFS Gargantuan Greatsword, I can still only attack the guy right in front of me?
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2009-07-07, 07:34 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2008
Re: Rules that don't make sense
Avatar by Assassin89
I started my first campaign around a campfire, having pancakes. They were blueberry.
My homebrew(updated 6/17):
SpoilerIn progress:
Prolonged Spell(Fix for Persistent spell)
Weapon Training(replaces Weapon Focus chain)
Shelved:
Ascendant Feats.[New content!]
Finished:
Belts of potionade
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2009-07-07, 07:37 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2004
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- The Land of Angles
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2009-07-07, 07:38 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2008
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- Wales, UK
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Re: Rules that don't make sense
Yes, but these were actual injuries. The way HP is often considered means that you would have to rest for a longer period even after some actions that did not leave any physical injuries. This could make sense once in a while, there's stress, or shock, but in D&D adventuring it just happens too often (not to mention, it would eventually turn HP into "emo points"). What you described can be - reasonably - patched up with healing spells, but it wouldn't be much different (again, in D&D terms) from receiving a minor wound. At the end of the day, it might just be best to assume that the positive energy channelled by the healing spells works on what needs to be fixed, whether it's the body, mind or "aura".
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2009-07-07, 07:39 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2008
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2009-07-07, 07:43 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2004
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- The Land of Angles
Re: Rules that don't make sense
Basically: wizards are trained in making somatic gestures without wearing armour. Even if their Dexterity is 2, they learn how to do the gestures through rigorous training. Wizards have the highest starting age of any class for a reason.
Wearing armour interferes with these rote gestures, so they sometimes get them wrong.
Bards, warmages and duskblades, meanwhile, train to perform these rote gestures while wearing armour, so it doesn't interfere, because they're used to it.
(Divine magic, meanwhile, doesn't require such expansive gesturing.)
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2009-07-07, 07:43 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Aug 2007
Re: Rules that don't make sense
Well, there's multiple things that give a creature/thing an alignment.
A pattern of behavior (or a very strongly aligned single deed) is reflected in an intelligent being's alignment. The favor of the deities can be reflected in one's alignment. Additionally, certain types of energies can inherently suffuse spells, objects, or creatures. A typical golem has no alignment from any of these sources. A zombie typically has an evil alignment from the third source, but not from the other two.
/not the way I'd do it.
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2009-07-07, 07:44 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2008