How much money to fund a ship

[oxinabox]

Continuing with my sailing related questions:
PC's are going to get money to fund the purchasing and supplying a a ship
of sufficent size to carry umm lets say 5 tonnes (1 tonne = 1000 lb?)
+ arm it with balista/ small siege.
+ hire a crew for a 2 week voyage.
+ misc expenses (ship related only) eg hiring a ships surgon.
fireproofing the hull.

I'm putting a lot of flexability in what the ship/ crew could be.

So we're looking at big money (out of game i'll stop them spending it on themselves: I just given the the standard startign wealth for leval 9 (36,000gp), and well some of them have squandered it (which i think is good): 12,000+gp on protection for praybook and spellbook, so i can say you've had your gold to spend on your kit. ALso in game they'll have guards accompnying them to make sure they don't high tail with the crowns gold)

This will be coming from a duke, along with guards to ensure that the grain reaches it's destination.
It's quiet likely and almost intended that the PC's will kill the guards, and maybe leave the town the grain was supposed to feed to starve and sell the grain at a profit {they claim neutral/evil alignments so I wanna see proof}.
This will make them outlaws, .'. campaign fun.

Maybe the ship will be legally the property of the crown...

to reiterate.
How much gold to kit out, and crew a ship for 2 weeks?

[Gaiyamato]

Start with page 95 of Stormwrack.

A caravel for 10,000gp would probably do them.

[BobVosh]

Start with page 95 of Stormwrack.

A caravel for 10,000gp would probably do them.

I would recommend the whole book. Very well written.

[Gaiyamato]

Caravel has a minimum crew of 7. Can carry a total of 30 medium creatures and has a cargo capacity of 120 tons.
It also comes with a free ballista and can sail in open ocean.

[paddyfool]

Yeah, a caravel would be a fine ship for a grain shipment. However, as regards that "5 tonne load" you mentioned:

Five tonnes, is actually about 11,000 pounds. It's the sort of load that medium trucks today are built for (although heavy tonnage trucks can carry over 25 tonnes). Modern dietary recommendations state that a young man should be getting about half a pound of grain equivalents in their diet each day ordinarily, in addition to the meat & veg etc. However, a child or an old person might need just half this much, a young man who's also engaged in heavy manual labour might need twice this much, and a lot of people like to eat a bit more than they strictly need. Therefore, 11,000 pounds of grain is enough to feed approximately 5000 people for 4 days (8 days on half rations) assuming the rest of the food is also covered.

If you're taking supplies to a small detachment of soldiers, say 500 men, this might be 3 weeks' grain ration, assuming that they each eat a pound a day, and a caravel (never mind highly-paid adventurers) an unnecessary expense for the task. If you're trying to feed a town, or an army, it'd be a drop in the ocean.

However, you could easily load up the caravel with 100 tonnes of grain. That'd be enough to feed a town of 20,000 people half a pound of grain each for three weeks; a far more reasonable amount for what you're talking about. Also, a far more tempting amount for theft, if you want to tempt the adventurers ;-).

[oxinabox]

I will read the book, I will read the book, I will read the book.
Ok, I keep getting in trouble for not reading the book.

I'm still thinking my rules for sinking through combat.

Caravel has a minimum crew of 7. Can carry a total of 30 medium creatures and has a cargo capacity of 120 tons.
It also comes with a free ballista and can sail in open ocean.

Just from what you've said sounds like a very small ship.
but maybe that a good thing, they can work there way up.
and at that price the crow won't loose much.
say i give them 15,000.
10,000 => ship
+1000 for fireproofing
+75 per crew member per week = 150*10 = 1500.
total=12500
so a bit of money for food, smaller private trade goods.
ammo, spare sail, maybe a mast.
oil - if they don't just use continual flame to make lanterns.

Hmm maybe i'm undersestimating the grain they need to carry.
I need to feed a large medievil town so 3,000 people for a season > 5,000 lbs
But i don't want to givethem more than that, cos they'll sell it off.

EDIT: 3000 is a large medievil town, 20,000 is almost unthinkable.
it's for a town that has no grain stocks left wievils


But then again maybe there the short term releif and the main vessals will come latter, that sounds good.




once again hijacking my own thread.
once of the 3 players is a mystic theurge Wizard/achivist.
casts wizard spell list up to 3 and all devine lists (that he buys) up to 3 as well.
He can do necromancy.
cost: 50 gp onyx per sailor.
What would the downside of using zombie sailors?


I'm going to stop posting and start reading.
this is really looking good.

Edit: I got severly ninja's cos i wass reading
But i think most of what i said holds true

[Gaiyamato]

Caravel can potentially carry 240,000 pounds of cargo. 120 tons.
That is a hell of a lot.

It is the most economical purchase for a cargo ship.

You could always hire a great captain and form a small fleet if this isn't enough cargo space.

A town of 3000 people will eat at least 750 pounds per day.
To get them through say 100 days (a comfortable season) they will need at least 750,000 pounds or about 375 tons. So they will need.. what 4 Caravels?
They also require their own supplies for the journey and all you see.

So a good captain who can hold a fleet together and 4 Caravel ships.
To adequately defend it that means getting at least 20 crew per ship as well.

[Connington]

Paddyfool, the answer to that of course, is to throw in other factors. Risk, from pirates or enemy nations (often indistinguishable) or a sudden famine are good reasons to hire a fast ship and expensive crew. Of course, it sounds like the grain run is just an excuse to set the PCs up as outlaws/pirates, but the details of the situation dictate how much effort the duke is going to put into hunting them down.

[Dixieboy]

5 tonnes of cargo?

That's not a whole lot there pal.

You can barely fit the weapons in 5 tonnes add in supplies and actual CARGO and well

You're gonna have a weight problem.

[oxinabox]

11,000 lb is too small me thinks.
wheat is sell able on the open market for:
1 pound wheat = 1 cp
100 lb = 1 gp.
There this is so cheap it's not funny.
Wow, i should have checked.
Why isn't dnd metric?

so I want at least a value of hmmm... lets say 1000 gp. that should be enough to temp true evil in to piracy.
Not enough for anyone to get any equipment that want, devide it up by 3 = 300 each.
I wonder what sort of CR that correspondents to.




The quest is sort of like they start game on there own very small but very fast coaster been given a message (sealed) from a lord to the duke saying most of the the towns grain stocks have been eaten by weavils, there may be riots if the population finds out and in the long term starvation.
they are the first ship to get immediate relief, while a larger convoy can be organized.


so 1000 gp = 100,000 lb of wheat.
MUCH better.
should feet the town of 3000 effective adults
(it need to last for a season, so that would be 1/4 *365= 92 days)
so they wopuld eat 1,500 lb per day.
so in a season would be 92*1,500=138 000 lb
WHich means the Players would basically take care of the whole town.
no good.

lets make it a regional center, Small city. with surounding serfs.
um triple it's size. 9,000 adults. makes moire sense for a lord to live there.
so they would eat: 414 000 lb (much better)

Now thats still just 5 ships. why can't the duchy rally that up on their own?
Any suggestions?
I can see that they probably wouldn't have that much wheat lying around (not then they have to feed there much bigger city).
so maybe they need to send the other ships to the ware houses around the coast to collect it.



I'm not going to make the get the caravel, but i'll bugget it that way.

[oxinabox]

5 tonnes of cargo?

That's not a whole lot there pal.

You can barely fit the weapons in 5 tonnes add in supplies and actual CARGO and well

You're gonna have a weight problem.

not five ton's of max cargo.
5 tons of cargo from the duke.

This have been upped to
100,000 lb

[Gaiyamato]

Well presuming there are 750 families of 4 on average and it takes one loaf of bread per day to feed them (which is about right based on my own kids).
You will consume 750 loaves of bread per day.

A standard bushel (parcel) of wheat is enough to make 175 loaves of bread (go ahead google it. :D).
1 bushel of wheat weighs about 60lbs (again you can google this).

So your town consumes 4.28 Bushels per day (rounded) or 256.8lbs of wheat per day. Allowing for a bad season that means you will need 100 days worth MAX or 25680lb -> 12.84 tons.

So my maths before was way off.
One single Caravel will do it no problems.

Mind you, this is the raw minimum subsitence diet.
Corn weighs more. You could easily go for yuor figures and the town would still only just make it through a bad winter.

You will also need to allow for rations for your crew etc.

[oxinabox]

I think i'll go for my figures.
and if anyone asks, I'll say the town ship it'self is 9,000 but there are uncounted serf surrounding it. and that this 100,000lb is a drop in the water.
And even though it was those useless serf's fault that we have no grain.we still have to feed them.
And there rebellion is worse than them starving.
If the starve they just die. thats ok more a breading all the time.
But the rebell, and then they destroy stuff.
AND we need to pay the exercutioners to kill them, and with all the serfs dead we need to pay good people to did the graves for them.
It's appalling!

Wheat is too cheap by far in dnd...
It must be produced by serfs
1,000 gp shouln't feed a city for a year

[bosssmiley]

once again hijacking my own thread.
once of the 3 players is a mystic theurge Wizard/achivist.
casts wizard spell list up to 3 and all divine lists (that he buys) up to 3 as well.
He can do necromancy.
cost: 50 gp onyx per sailor.
What would the downside of using zombie sailors?

1. They're slow (1 action/rnd)
2. They're not adaptable, and have to be closely monitored
3. They're the living dead

A caravel might look small by modern standards, about the size of Columbus' Santa Maria, or Cook's Endeavour, but they're good all-purpose ships. A caravel filled with barrels of goods (note: the barrel was the standard shipping container of the pre-modern period) was about the most efficient transportation system a medieval society had.

If you're planning on getting deep into shipping as an aspect of your game I recommend the Patrician III PC game by Ascaron Entertainment. It's a great little merchant prince primer...

[oxinabox]

1. They're slow (1 action/rnd)
2. They're not adaptable, and have to be closely monitored
3. They're the living dead

keep going, this is great stuff.
how about them falling apart due to brittleness from salt?
Do the nonintelegent undead, suffer penalties to wisdom, and int based checks?

Caravel is about half the size i of what I've sailed (3 masted barquentine 180 ft, 130 ft on deck (who can name the ship?)) , but is still Big to put on a board.
I assume it was smaller cos you can run it with 7 people.
But i did't take into that that was at any one time (so to sail round the clock you'ld want 3 or 4 times that (moral penalty if only have 3*7 due to tiredness))

[13_CBS]

Would a literal skeleton crew work better? They're faster, and as SilverClawShift's campaign journals have theorized, they're easier to store (just store the bones into a compartment or something).

[oxinabox]

Would a literal skeleton crew work better? They're faster, and as SilverClawShift's campaign journals have theorized, they're easier to store (just store the bones into a compartment or something).

I was thinking that.
Can they be created with the same raise dead spell?
If so I'ld make the PC's spend time stripping the bones of flesh (heh heh heve fun little elf, you said you wanted the be a necromancer )

I need to read those rules too

[Gaiyamato]

Um.. unseen servants.

Problem solved.
The party can take care of anything too complex.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/unseenServant.htm

A caravel has a minimum crew of 7 for indifinate sailing. So only 2/3 crew are really needed at a time minimum.
Use unseen servants to assist with menial tasks and 2 PCs with profession(Sailor) at decent ranks will handle it fine.

I was thinking that.
Can they be created with the same raise dead spell?
If so I'ld make the PC's spend time stripping the bones of flesh (heh heh heve fun little elf, you said you wanted the be a necromancer )

I need to read those rules too

Yes and the Animate Dead spell strips the flesh for you if you chose the skeletons options.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/animateDead.htm

[Fri]

If you read/watch one piece, Going Merry (or merry go in the english version) is a caravel. You might put that into consideration.

[Gaiyamato]

If you read/watch one piece, Going Merry (or merry go in the english version) is a caravel. You might put that into consideration.

It is a little short and stout, but yes the right over-all design. lol.

A Caravel is what Collumbus sailed in.

[13_CBS]

Um.. unseen servants.

I'm not sure if they're strong enough to do the job. They can only exert 20 pounds of force or drag 100 pounds, and, although it's not entirely clear, they may not be able to tie a lot of the knots that may be needed to run the ship.

I argue the last part since US, "...can’t perform any task that requires a skill check with a DC higher than 10 or that requires a check using a skill that can’t be used untrained." The DC for a "firm knot" is 10, while the DC for a "special knot" is 15, which, if I were the DM, would rule is necessary for crewing a sailing ship.

Edit: Actually, I just realized that I haven't read Stormwrack yet. Are there rules in that book about the finer details of crewing a sailing ship?

[oxinabox]

If you read/watch one piece, Going Merry (or merry go in the english version) is a caravel. You might put that into consideration.

I think we have it in Australia? however i don't watch much tv.

What sort of vessal would you recommends for pirates.
What sort of vessal for a Very fast,small,( say 25x15 ft) message courier?

[Gaiyamato]

No but they can do the annoying stuff, like cleaning things and sewing up holes in sails, coiling up rope to safely tuck it away etc.

A caravel only needs 2/3 people to sail it minimum. They are a very easy ship to sail. You may need 5/6 men on deck in rough weather is all.

People have sailed a caravel halfway around the world with less than 10 crew before.
They are one of the best small ocean going ships ever invented. Still used today in some parts of the world. :)

You would need a 20/30 man crew for battle however.

But unseen servant and a few other minor helper spells would make sailing a caravel a snap! :D

[Gaiyamato]

D&D Nautical technology is not sufficient for "pirates" as we would think of them.
It would depend on how far they are from shore. If they are in blue water then the only reliable ship they could use would be another caraven or an elven wing ship.

Also another idea for a ship for the party could be a Cog. It was the principle ship used by medieval traders. Very common in the Hanse traders during the time of the Hanseatic League in Germany.

Carries a LOT less cargo though.
But unless you hit bad weather only 1 person at a time is needed to sail the boat at a minimum without penalties.

Cog
The cog is the basic medieval-era sailing ship. It is a singlemasted
sailing ship with a round, sturdy hull. It has a partial
deck (the waist of the ship is not decked over, but the ends are)
and raised bow and stern platforms that are open, as opposed
to being enclosed like a true forecastle or sterncastle. It is
seaworthy, but not very handy in adverse winds.
Nefs, roundships, or knorrs use these same statistics. A
knorr or roundship also has an oar speed of 5 ft. in addition
to the sailing speed.
Cog: Colossal vehicle; Seaworthiness +2; Shiphandling
–2; Speed wind × 20 ft. (poor); Overall AC –3; Hull sections
16 (sink 4 sections); Section hp 80 (hardness 5); Section
AC 3; Rigging Sections 1; Rigging hp 60 (hardness 0), AC
1; Ram 4d6; Mounts 1 light and 1 heavy; Space 40 ft. by
20 ft.; Height 10 ft. (draft 10 ft.); Complement 20; Watch
4; Cargo 40 tons (Speed wind × 10 ft. if 20 tons or more);
Cost 6,000 gp.

[13_CBS]

No but they can do the annoying stuff, like cleaning things and sewing up holes in sails, coiling up rope to safely tuck it away etc.

But can the party do the rest of the stuff? Do they have enough ranks in Profession: Sailing?

As for pirates...

According to the scholars at the Real World Weapons and Armor thread, your pirate ships will, ideally, need enough crew to sail the ship, plus extra members for boarding merchant ships.

So, if Merchant Ship X can reliably repel about 15 or 20 level 1 boarders, then your pirate ships will probably need 25 level 1 boarders or so.

As for their ship, I would imagine something that's fast, but can carry a lot of crew and a good bit of cargo.

...

Another caravel? Maybe a sloop for lesser pirates? But definitely something fast in order to catch up to merchant ships and get away from military ships.

[Gaiyamato]

The ultimate fast pirate ship would be an elven wing ship.

[13_CBS]

The ultimate fast pirate ship would be an elven wing ship.

What is an elven wing ship? Is it a military vessel?

[Gaiyamato]

Cog
The cog is the basic medieval-era sailing ship. It is a singlemasted
sailing ship with a round, sturdy hull. It has a partial
deck (the waist of the ship is not decked over, but the ends are)
and raised bow and stern platforms that are open, as opposed
to being enclosed like a true forecastle or sterncastle. It is
seaworthy, but not very handy in adverse winds.
Nefs, roundships, or knorrs use these same statistics. A
knorr or roundship also has an oar speed of 5 ft. in addition
to the sailing speed.
Cog: Colossal vehicle; Seaworthiness +2; Shiphandling
–2; Speed wind × 20 ft. (poor); Overall AC –3; Hull sections
16 (sink 4 sections); Section hp 80 (hardness 5); Section
AC 3; Rigging Sections 1; Rigging hp 60 (hardness 0), AC
1; Ram 4d6; Mounts 1 light and 1 heavy; Space 40 ft. by
20 ft.; Height 10 ft. (draft 10 ft.); Complement 20; Watch
4; Cargo 40 tons (Speed wind × 10 ft. if 20 tons or more);
Cost 6,000 gp.

An Elven military vessel. Definately a very piratey ship.
You could modify a non-elf version quite easily. :)

[oxinabox]

I think I've going to need to Homebrew a stack of ships.
Like my fast small coster.

But can the party do the rest of the stuff? Do they have enough ranks in Profession: Sailing?

Yes, I've houserules a free feat that makes Profession sailor and one of Appraise, Prof fisherman, prof siege engineer, craft shipwright, is a class skill for all classes.
(this was in my old thread, soz).
I'm playing very nicely , all my players are almost new (i've run in 3.5 with them and 4 or 4 4e) - (not imposing wisdom penaties to unwise ninja AC, letting weapon fininesse work for all swords (in addition to the normal), um...it's almost Monty Haul )

Once of my player has 2 level of dread pirate, he as Prof Sailor of 8 on ranks allone (but he takes a wisdom penalty to it so i think it comes out as 7, but i might add a synergy from use rope (or craft shipwight) to that.)

Everyone is atleast trained in proffesion sailor

[13_CBS]

An Elven military vessel. Definately a very piratey ship.

Which may be a little tricky for pirates to get, unless they're military deserters...it's a bit unwise for pirates to attack military vessels (the same way bandits aren't too keen about assaulting military patrols unless they're a huge bandit army or something).