Got Incarnum? [3.5]

[SilveryCord]

For a PbP game on this very forum, I'm playing a totemist. I've pretty much figured out how to run it, but I'm just interested to ask, being relatively inexperienced with Magic of Incarnum: What do you guys think about incarnum? What play experiences have you had with it? Where does each incarnum class lie on the power scale, what are good feats to choose, and what are the best soulmelds?

[AmberVael]

For a PbP game on this very forum, I'm playing a totemist. I've pretty much figured out how to run it, but I'm just interested to ask, being relatively inexperienced with Magic of Incarnum: What do you guys think about incarnum? What play experiences have you had with it? Where does each incarnum class lie on the power scale, what are good feats to choose, and what are the best soulmelds?

Incarnum is a pretty unique and fun addition to the 3.5 series- it doesn't give me as many options as I would like, but it can be useful.

My personal favorite incarnum character was a completely reflavored Totemist with Vow of Poverty- essentially, a demon had been slain, but he was powerful enough to where he didn't really die, so he wandered around for a while until he found this poor little innocent farmer who happened to be extremely susceptible to spirits- the demon then possessed him and ran around in his body.

I explained my soul melds and powers as being the emerging essence of the demon as he used what powers he had left (vow of poverty was the demon's deal with another, more powerful demon- he sacrificed all wealth he possessed and gained to her, in exchange for increased power).

He was somewhat limited in what he could do- Soulmelds aren't as versatile as I would like (as mentioned previously). However, correctly done, they DO allow good versatility with skills, and with a totemist, you can also become quite a melee powerhouse. My demon managed to sink a ship with his bare hands (something that other characters can do, if made correctly, but still- the idea is that a Totemist CAN be a potent force).

As for power, Totemist is clearly the most powerful of the three classes presented. It gets nearly the same power with soulmelds that the Incarnate does, but also is capable in combat.
Incarnate suffers in that, again, Soulmelds don't present a lot of options. Having a character who only has powers through his soulmelds doesn't really get you much of anywhere- you can be good with skills, but that is about it. (That being said, I've never actually played one, so this is just my initial thoughts on having studied it).
Soulborn suffers in that it doesn't get ENOUGH soulmelds, and it lacks the option of the Totemist (to gain lots of natural attacks via soulmelds), as it doesn't have access to the same ones as a totemist. It is a passable, but unremarkable warrior class. Go for Tome of Battle over this guy, or Totemist if you want a fighter.

I think Incarnum could be improved, but it IS a fun concept.

[NPCMook]

The Totemist rocks the face off the other two classes because the Incarnate and Soulborn share most of the same melds, where as the totemist shares, I think, 5 or so that the other two have also. The Totemist also has access to the Totem Chakra which makes their Melds 10x better than the other two.

The only downfall to the Incarnum classes is Anti-magic fields, always carry a spare set of Armor around with you.

[Gralamin]

The Totemist rocks the face off the other two classes because the Incarnate and Soulborn share most of the same melds, where as the totemist shares, I think, 5 or so that the other two have also. The Totemist also has access to the Totem Chakra which makes their Melds 10x better than the other two.

The only downfall to the Incarnum classes is Anti-magic fields, always carry a spare set of Armor around with you.

The Totemist is very strong, but the Incarnate can pretty much match him, if your very good at building. Incarnate Builds are tricky business.

As for Anti-magic Fields, I've always played with a house rule that all soul-melds can be sustained in the same way as a Soulknife's Mindblade.

[Blackfang108]

The Totemist is very strong, but the Incarnate can pretty much match him, if your very good at building. Incarnate Builds are tricky business.

As for Anti-magic Fields, I've always played with a house rule that all soul-melds can be sustained in the same way as a Soulknife's Mindblade.

Very tricky, but they make a GREAT mental exercise.

And that's a pretty good idea. It makes great sense, to me.

[Lert, A.]

As has been mentioned Totemist > Incarnate > Soulborn.

The main problem with running Incarnum is the lack of support. I blame the color blue (red would have been much better).

[AmberVael]

...the Incarnate can pretty much match him, if your very good at building. Incarnate Builds are tricky business.

How so? I'm not questioning the possibility (as previously mentioned, I've never actually built one before), but I have to admit that to me, the idea of an Incarnate matching a Totemist seems rather dubious. Is there something I'm missing? A particular method or build?

[Blackfang108]

How so? I'm not questioning the possibility (as previously mentioned, I've never actually built one before), but I have to admit that to me, the idea of an Incarnate matching a Totemist seems rather dubious. Is there something I'm missing? A particular method or build?

It depends on what you're trying to do with the Character.

Here's the Incarnate Handbook.

[Indon]

The main problem with running Incarnum is the lack of support. I blame the color blue (red would have been much better).

Nonsense, Blue is awesome.

I'm playing an Incarnate in an E6 game - I'm expecting the class to turn out a bit overpowered if we ever make to epic status (since epic E6 characters continue to get feats, and Incarnum classes mesh well with lots of feats).

Until then, I'm going to be a versatile, low-damage but tough front-liner.

[JeenLeen]

I loved the Blink Shirt -- short-range Dimension Door at will -- for the Totemist.

Incarnates seem to get really good defenses, and I've heard they can get good +x bonuses to their Incarnate Weapon weapons earlier than any other character should be able to buy such. Through a selection of feats and items, I had +7 Girallion Arm claws on a level 17-18 Totemist.

[Sinfire Titan]

How so? I'm not questioning the possibility (as previously mentioned, I've never actually built one before), but I have to admit that to me, the idea of an Incarnate matching a Totemist seems rather dubious. Is there something I'm missing? A particular method or build?

UMD is an Incarnate's playground. Even one CC rank is enough for the Mage's Spectacles to take over. If it actually matters, Incarnates also win in AC and Attack Bonuses. Totemist win the speed and attacks/round. Soulborns fail epically at everything short of providing another party member's WBL.

Blackfang: Your version is my older one. The BG version is more up-to-date.

[JaxGaret]

E6

How do you like E6?

[Indon]

How do you like E6?

Haven't hit level 6 yet, and I'm not playing an LA race, so it's not really any different. DM's running some houserules that impact at level 1, but they aren't part of the E6 package.

[Olo Demonsbane]

I am playing an E6 game tommorow! And my character has the shape soulmeld feat twice! I feel like I matter

Dragon Tail is awesome, and Claws of the Wyrm are great for first level. They are the only Totemist soulmelds (IIRC) that grant you natural attacks without binding them to your Totem chakra.

Incarnum is awesome, particulary the Totemist. I played a geshalt Incarnate//Cleric once that got my DM so mad about its ability to resist punishment...he had DR from some source, hit points way up high, and then had a Mantle of Fire. The monsters attacking him would often do more damage to themselves rather than to him.

[Darrin]

Dragon Tail is awesome, and Claws of the Wyrm are great for first level. They are the only Totemist soulmelds (IIRC) that grant you natural attacks without binding them to your Totem chakra.

There is another... Dragon #350 had a few totemist soulmelds. One of them was Chaos Roc's Span, which adds two secondary wing buffet attacks... with reach. And that's without being bound to any chakra. Nonlethal damage, yes, but not a problem if you're using Stand Still (or bind it to your shoulder chakra for lethal damage + chance to daze for 1d4 rounds). So... any of you lockdown trippers out there need a reach attack that leaves both of your hands free? Might want to look at picking up Shape Soulmeld.

[Olo Demonsbane]

Heh, that would explain my not knowing. I dont have Dragon aside from the Compendium.

And that soulmeld is SWEEEET...

[Sinfire Titan]

I am playing an E6 game tommorow! And my character has the shape soulmeld feat twice! I feel like I matter

Dragon Tail is awesome, and Claws of the Wyrm are great for first level. They are the only Totemist soulmelds (IIRC) that grant you natural attacks without binding them to your Totem chakra.

Incarnum is awesome, particulary the Totemist. I played a geshalt Incarnate//Cleric once that got my DM so mad about its ability to resist punishment...he had DR from some source, hit points way up high, and then had a Mantle of Fire. The monsters attacking him would often do more damage to themselves rather than to him.

AT 1ST LEVEL ONLY.


Reread the soulmelds there, pal. Attacking with those natural weapons takes a standard action, not an attack action, so you can't use them on a full attack or AoO. They rock for 1 level, then fail epically to the Girallon Arms/Manticore Belt. Well, most soulmelds fail against those two anyway, but you get the idea.

[Indon]

AT 1ST LEVEL ONLY.


Reread the soulmelds there, pal. Attacking with those natural weapons takes a standard action, not an attack action, so you can't use them on a full attack or AoO. They rock for 1 level, then fail epically to the Girallon Arms/Manticore Belt. Well, most soulmelds fail against those two anyway, but you get the idea.

It's an E6 game.

Only full BAB classes ever get a second attack.

Totemist is not full BAB.

[SilveryCord]

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbi...acturedWeapons


The text of Dragon Tail in Dragon Magic says, "You can make one attack per round with the tail as a standard action." It could be read to say that you can't use it in any way but a standard action, but if that's the case it seems pretty ambigious. Dragon Tail starts, "You form a draconic tail that can strike foes"... so isn't it a natural weapon you can use it a secondary attack at a -5 penalty? (Even if you're BAB isn't high enough to have a second weapon attack?)

[kamikasei]

Seems fairly unambiguous to me. How do you use it? You spend a standard action to take one attack. If it granted you a natural weapon which you could use like any other, it would say so, and wouldn't mention standard actions at all.

[Indon]

Does it say it grants a tail attack? Tail attacks are a general category of natural weapons, after all.

[wizuriel]

playing an incarnate / psion / soul manifester and they are fun :D. Very flexible.

Though one thing wondering if can you enhance the incarnate weapon? They are magical weapons and if bound are a physical object.

[Blackfang108]

Though one thing wondering if can you enhance the incarnate weapon? They are magical weapons and if bound are a physical object.

They're physical no matter what...

What do you mean by enhance? If you're talking Special Qualities (Flaming, etc), the weapon never leaves your hand for more than 6 seconds, unless both of your hands are full.

Essentia Makes it a +X weapon.

(Greater) Magic Weapon (and the Psionic Eq, whos name escapes me) should effect it as normal, noting that any bonus from Essentia would overlap the bonus from (G)MW.

[Person_Man]

Magic of Incarnum is a lot like the Psionics Handbook and Tome of Battle. Each provides an alternative way of handling class abilities, and each lends itself to a certain play style.

Although it's very complex to initially master, once you know what you're doing it's actually quite simple. Explaination of how Incarnum works:

Spoiler

Show

Incarnum classes play like a Cleric if it was re-written to be like a Warlock. You have a long list powers (soulmelds), most of which are buffs (with some utility and direct attacks mixed in). Each morning you choose from that list. The higher level you are, the more soulmelds you get each day. A 20th level Incarnate or Totemist gets 9 soulmelds. Soulmelds do not have a minimum level requirement though, so you can choose any soulmeld off your list starting at level 1.

Most almost all soulmelds are fairly weak by themselves, in that they provide a minor static bonus. For example, the Girallion Arms provide a +2 bonus on Climb and Grapple checks, and Ankheg Breast grants you a +2 armor bonus.

But each soulmeld can be improved by one of two ways.

First, you can invest essentia points in them. Doing so usually improves the bonuses provided by the soulmeld. Essentia is a very limited pool of soul energy though. It tops out at 20 points for a 20th level Totemist, or 26 points for a 20th level Incarnate. (And can be pushed a few points higher by race and feat choices). As a Swift Action you can invest essentia into any number soulmelds that you have shaped, with no single soulmeld having more essentia invested in it higher then your soulmeld capacity. Your soulmeld capacity is determined by your character level (and tops out at 4 points at 18th level or higher, though it can be raised up to 7 with certain class and feat choices). I like to think of it as being on the Enterprise. You have one engine room with 100% power that you can shift between shields, weapons, engines, whatever, up to the maximum capacity that each is capable of handling.

Second, you can chakra bind the soulmeld to a body slot. Doing so gives you a totally different (and all day) power in addition to the bonuses provided by the soulmeld. (Note that there are certain restrictions on this as well, as binding a soulmeld to a body slot prevents you from using magic items in that slot, and you can't bind more then one soulmeld to the same slot). Which body slots you can bind is dependent on your Incarnum class level.

This all sounds really complex, but here's all you really need to know:

1) Each morning you pick new soulmelds (bonuses) and chakra binds (powers). Theoretically it can be completely different every morning, within the confines of your class and level. But in reality since your feats and magic items are picked to support a specific style of play, you usually have just one or two different builds that you use.

2) Once your soulmelds and chakra binds are set, you can use all of them all day, whenever you want to use them. The only resource management you have to worry about is your essentia pool, which determines how powerful the bonuses provided by your soulmelds are. These points aren't expended like psionic power points. It's a constant flow, which can be shifted from soulmeld to soulmeld as a Swift Action.

So the Totemist is a great class for people who want "all day" non game breaking buffs, who are willing to read an extra book and fill out a few more pages of character sheet in order to do it. They are particularly strong in the World's Largest Dungeon or similar marathon games.

My current favorite mid level build is Totemist 2/Incarnate 3/Ironsoul Forgemaster X (progressing Incarnate meldshaping). This gives you access to both sets of soulmelds, +2 essentia capacity, Totem/Crown/Arms/Waist/Shoulders/Heart chakra binds, and access to Energy Resistance, DR which stacks with your armor's DR, and it adds a damage bonus and a potent Daze attack to your weapon. Not as good as strait Totemist or Incarnate for ECL 16+ builds, but superior for ECL 15 or lower IMO.

[Sinfire Titan]

It's an E6 game.

Only full BAB classes ever get a second attack.

Totemist is not full BAB.

Totemist 2 gives the Totem Chakra Bind, which allows you to bind the Girallon Arms or Manticore Belt or Landshark Boots. All three of those soulmelds provide more than 3 attacks/round, each of which deals decent damage. Compared to the melds in Dragon Magic, those soulmelds are strictly superior the instant you hit 2nd level.


Also, E6 sucks for meldshapers other than the Totemist, as the other classes actually care about chakra binds beyond a single bind gained at 2nd level. E6 gimps the Incarnate and Soulborn into near-unplayable territory, as they lose out on the abilities that make the class playable (well, Incarnates do; Soulborns don't have redeeming qualities).

[Indon]

Also, E6 sucks for meldshapers other than the Totemist, as the other classes actually care about chakra binds beyond a single bind gained at 2nd level. E6 gimps the Incarnate and Soulborn into near-unplayable territory, as they lose out on the abilities that make the class playable (well, Incarnates do; Soulborns don't have redeeming qualities).

Uh, you don't seem to get how E6 works - everyone is limited to level 6.

Nobody is particularly powerful, and the rate of power increase slowly levels off after hitting 6.

Incarnum classes, however, have more potent feat options after hitting six than other classes, since they can continue gaining points in their 'casting stat', Essentia.

In the specific case of the Incarnate, their increased Essentia capacity works out pretty well when it turns into a 50% increase.

[Olo Demonsbane]

Ah, but Im not even a totemist! Otherwise, there would be no way that I would be using anything besides Girrillion Arms for my totem chakra.

My thought process was...hey, I have 3 open feats at first level...I dont know what to spend them on...Im a Dragon Shaman, wouldnt it be cool if I was more like a dragon?

So...yeah. Shape Soulmeld and Multiattack.

My DM ruled otherwise on Claws of the Wyrm and Dragon Tail. Hes seen what I can do with Manticore belt and Girillion Arms, and applauds using anything else

[Indon]

My Incarnate took a Totemist soulmeld for flavor as well, actually - specifically, the one that draws upon the Grey Render's power, whatever it's called, for a decent natural AC bonus with Essentia investment (also, one HP that will eventually become 3, which is gravy).

[Glimbur]

I've played an Epic Incarnate in a poorly-run game, and my brother is playing a Totemist in my no casters* game. I found the most effective attack option for my Good Incarnate was Dissolving Spittle bound to the throat; AC was just too high for me to hit with an Incarnate weapon due partly to Wizard BAB.

That said, I homebrewed some Totemist Soulmelds that should be fairly balanced, and I'm planning on putting up some ideas for Incarnates one of these days.

*no bards, sorcerers, clerics, wizards, favored souls, wu jens, etc. Warlocks, Psions, Meldshapers, Binders, ToB, etc are fine. Paladins and Rangers are no-casting. Magic is found as a liquid that anyone can use to make magic items; typically acquired from killing Magical Beasts and such.

[Pie Guy]

You know something cheap to do? Incarnate Weapon and Necrocarnum Weapon can occupy different chakras, and nothing says you can't manifest them both over an enchanted weapon if you don't bind them to the chakra.