Crusaders

[Zergrusheddie]

It read that Crusaders make excellent Tanks and that they are the only class that can actually pull it off successfully. Considering they have maneuvers to gain HP when activated, it seems to make sense. However, doesn't the whole "you get random maneuvers" diminish their effectiveness or is there a way to get around it?

Best of luck
-Eddie

[Eldariel]

It read that Crusaders make excellent Tanks and that they are the only class that can actually pull it off successfully. Considering they have maneuvers to gain HP when activated, it seems to make sense. However, doesn't the whole "you get random maneuvers" diminish their effectiveness or is there a way to get around it?

Best of luck
-Eddie

Get Extra Granted Maneuver, beyond that pick one-two redundant maneuvers so you can trust in having one granted at any given time. But yeah, every Crusader should have Extra Granted Maneuver. Also, reach weapon and Thicket of Blades + Stone Power are a sick combination.

[Zergrusheddie]

Wow, Stone Power does work with Attacks of Opportunity. So with Combat Reflexes, you could shift back each round and have +30 temporary hitpoints permanently? I see how Crusaders can Tank; they work like a basic AoO build except that the AoO's don't really do damage, they just make you impossible to kill. Wow.

Thanks for the help Eldariel.

[Kaiyanwang]

Wow, Stone Power does work with Attacks of Opportunity. So with Combat Reflexes, you could shift back each round and have +30 temporary hitpoints permanently? I see how Crusaders can Tank; they work like a basic AoO build except that the AoO's don't really do damage, they just make you impossible to kill. Wow.

Thanks for the help Eldariel.

Wait..

This could bring to nasty ideas with:

- Dragon Magazine's Improved CReflexes feats;

- Fighter//Crusader for a laundry list of AOOs feats and maybe some cheese with Overpowering Attack + Standstill (and other things).

[Douglas]

Wow, Stone Power does work with Attacks of Opportunity.

No, it doesn't. It works with normal standard action attacks, full attack actions, stone dragon strikes, and nothing else.

[Kaiyanwang]

No, it doesn't. It works with normal standard action attacks, full attack actions, stone dragon strikes, and nothing else.

* silents, turns his back, watching the sunset. The only sound is the wisper of the wind. Violins.*

[Person_Man]

The key at low-mid levels for a Crusader is Steely Resolve + Stone Power + Martial Spirit + any AoO combo + Devoted Spirit and Stone Dragon manuevers.

Steely Resolve delays damage (and this pool can be healed).

Stone Power provides you with temporary hit points.

Martial Spirit (which is a stance, and thus always on) provides healing.

Devoted Spirit manuevers provide healing when you get them.

Stone Dragon manuevers provide damage reduction when you get them.

AoO (often from a Trip or Bull Rush combo) provides additional healing through Martial Spirit, and more importantly some form of battlefield control to limit the number of people who attack you each turn.

Put them together, and you get an amazing tank.

At higher levels things become more tricky (as Stone Power and Martial Spirit don't scale well), but by then you have plenty of excellent stances and manuevers to stock up on, and enough feats to provide you with more then one combo for when you draw the wrong combination of manuevers.

[Zergrusheddie]

Isn't an Attack of Opportunity an Attack Action though?

[PairO'Dice Lost]

However, doesn't the whole "you get random maneuvers" diminish their effectiveness or is there a way to get around it?

As someone on the WotC boards said, "A random choice out of a pile of awesome is still awesome." As long as you pick maneuvers that are always handy (healing, extra damage, etc.) you'll be fine. You'll note that msot of the maneuvers that hinge tactically on certain situations (DM save boosters, SH teleports, IH rerolls, etc.) are part of disciplines that the crusader doesn't get and the swordsage and warblade (who always have chosen maneuvers readied) do.

No, it doesn't. It works with normal standard action attacks, full attack actions, stone dragon strikes, and nothing else.

I haven't read it in a while, but I could have sworn it works with SD maneuvers and any normal attacks. I don't have the books at hand; could someone post the exact wording?

[Douglas]

Isn't an Attack of Opportunity an Attack Action though?

No. An AoO is an attack, but it is not an attack action. For something to be an "attack action", you have to spend an action on it and you have to spend said action directly on making an attack, not on using some other ability that happens to include an attack as part of its effect.

Edit:

I haven't read it in a while, but I could have sworn it works with SD maneuvers and any normal attacks. I don't have the books at hand; could someone post the exact wording?

I looked this up for another discussion of exactly this issue recently, and the exact wording near enough is "attack action, full attack action, or stone dragon strike".

[ColdSepp]

I haven't read it in a while, but I could have sworn it works with SD maneuvers and any normal attacks. I don't have the books at hand; could someone post the exact wording?

Here it is.

Benefit: When you use an attack action or a full attack action, or you initiate a Stone Dragon strike in melee combat, you can take a penalty of as much as –5 on your attack rolls.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

Benefit: When you use an attack action or a full attack action, or you initiate a Stone Dragon strike in melee combat, you can take a penalty of as much as –5 on your attack rolls.

Well, I thought it just said "attack," which would definitely allow AoOs, but while there's no official definition of "attack action," there's an "attack" heading under standard actions and Spring Attack uses it in a way that would seem to rule out AoOs...so it looks like AoOs are ruled out after all.

[Frosty]

Actually, an attack action includes standard attacks, or anything that can be used in place of a standard attack, like grapple attempts, trip attempts, disarms, etc. This is why you can in theory try to disarm someone multiple time per Full-Attack.

So yes, you *can* do Stone Power without actually intended to whack the other person, like with a trip attempt, but I'm not sure it'll work with AoOs.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

Actually, an attack action includes standard attacks, or anything that can be used in place of a standard attack, like grapple attempts, trip attempts, disarms, etc. This is why you can in theory try to disarm someone multiple time per Full-Attack.

Well, we know it basically means that, but there's nothing saying "An attack action is any single attack on your turn or a special combat maneuver that can substitute for it" in the SRD.

[Random NPC]

It read that Crusaders make excellent Tanks and that they are the only class that can actually pull it off successfully. Considering they have maneuvers to gain HP when activated, it seems to make sense. However, doesn't the whole "you get random maneuvers" diminish their effectiveness or is there a way to get around it?

Best of luck
-Eddie

Crusaders make excellent tanks indeed. And as people have said, the maneuvers they can choose are so good that you just can't go wrong even if it's random.

Add a dip into Knight to get "Aggro" on the enemies. Basically a Knight challenge makes a big enemy focus his attacks on you, and due to your high survivability you can make it out of it not completely dead.

[Eldariel]

Crusaders make excellent tanks indeed. And as people have said, the maneuvers they can choose are so good that you just can't go wrong even if it's random.

Add a dip into Knight to get "Aggro" on the enemies. Basically a Knight challenge makes a big enemy focus his attacks on you, and due to your high survivability you can make it out of it not completely dead.

You can achieve the same with just reach weapon + stand still (or in most cases, Improved Trip) + thicket of blades. Generally, dipping Knight feels unnecessary as Crusader has that area covered.

Best of all, opponent doesn't have the option of saving or using some ability that can be used while challenged; he's gonna sit right there and be a good boy while Team Good mops up. Mage Slayer to boot and casters are gonna cry if you get near them (say, through Teleport).

[Frosty]

Well, technically Crusader has no option to actually hold aggro. With Thicket of Blades he can just cause movement issues for the nearby enemies. The Knight can do *both*, but dipping Knight is not optimal because the Test of Mettle DC is based on Charisma and Knight levels, not HD. Also, as a Crusader Charisma probably isn't your best stat (but probably not your worst either).

[Eldariel]

Well, technically Crusader has no option to actually hold aggro. With Thicket of Blades he can just cause movement issues for the nearby enemies. The Knight can do *both*, but dipping Knight is not optimal because the Test of Mettle DC is based on Charisma and Knight levels, not HD. Also, as a Crusader Charisma probably isn't your best stat (but probably not your worst either).

*shrug* He can stop enemies from getting to your other party members, which is all it takes in my book, especially if you cover a 45' diameter area.

[Frosty]

*shrug* He can stop enemies from getting to your other party members, which is all it takes in my book, especially if you cover a 45' diameter area.

And that may be true. I'm just making sure people know that Crusader and Knight are a tad different.

[Darrin]

However, doesn't the whole "you get random maneuvers" diminish their effectiveness or is there a way to get around it?

If you take Adaptive Style, you can reset your readied/granted maneuvers however you like. However, you waste a full-round action that way. The Crusader recovery mechanic is actually stronger than Warblade, since they don't have to waste any actions to recover your maneuvers, and can keep using their strikes every round.

Extra Granted Maneuver helps, but there's an even better way to increase your granted maneuvers. When you take a PrC that give you additional readied maneuvers, you also get an additional granted maneuver (ToB p. 96). However, all the ToB PrCs give you more known maneuvers before you get more readied maneuvers, so you can't really get granted equal to known maneuvers.

And then there's the Ruby Knight Vindicator, which gets Divine Recovery... basically, as a swift action, convert your turn attempts into an instant readied/granted maneuver. This is awesomeness on toast (and also prone to the usual Nightstick abuse we all know and love from Divine Metamagic).

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

For battlefield control, consider using Dragonborn of Bahamut with the Heart aspect with Entangling Exhalation in Races of the Dragon. Entangled foes take penalties to attack rolls and Dexterity and move at half speed, so you're more likely to get an AoO if they try moving around.

Mineral Warrior will make anyone extremely tanky, and the +1 LA is easy to live with. It can be combined with Dragonborn, since both are acquired templates you can add this one last and you won't lose any of its abilities to Dragonborn. You could even use the Wings aspect of Dragonborn with this, and if you get Mineral Warrior before your 6th level you won't have a fly speed yet for it to take away, but when you do gain the fly speed at 6th level it won't be retroactively lost.

Add those onto a Water Orc or Water Halfling depending on if you want to focus on offense or defense. Dragonborn on a Race of Water will keep the ability score adjustments, size, and movement modes including swim speed, but lose all other racial traits such as the Orc's light sensitivity. You'll also get an extremely high Con bonus, which combined with the Crusader's other abilities will make you nearly unkillable.

[HamHam]

Crusaders can do some ridiculous things at higher level. Like taking Con damage to deal more damage or whatever? I had a Crusader who practically one hit killed a Great Wyrm once with that.

Also, the Law stance that lets you take 11 on things is awesome, imho.

[brujon]

The Crusader recovery mechanic is the best recovery mechanic, once you stop to think about it(assuming Extra Granted Maneuver):

On round 1, you get 3 out of 5 readied maneuvers granted to you. On your turn, you proceed to use one of them, and it goes to your expended maneuver pool.

On round 2, you recover all your expended maneuvers and have one more maneuver granted to you. Since you expended 1 maneuver on turn 1, and you have one more maneuver granted, you then have 5 out of 5 maneuvers granted. You then use one more of your maneuvers.

On round 3, you recover your ONLY expended maneuver. And now you have all of your maneuvers granted to you at all times.

If you do the math, this is going to be true even at level 20. Once you hit round 3, there is no more randomness. You can use your favorite maneuver every turn you get. And since you don't have the Warblade's restriction on not using maneuvers the turn you recover them, you have a mechanic that is intrinsically better than his. If you DON'T choose Extra Granted Maneuver, then you'll have randomness until round 3.


That being said...

Well, i actually built a crusader for a friend of mine to play. Using 28 pt buy, i'll post the maneuver/feat progression and stat progression in a spoiler block:

Spoiler

Show

Human Fighter 2/Crusader 18



Abilities:

FOR: 16
DEX: 16
CON: 16
INT: 10
WIS: 10
CHA: 8

+1 FOR lvl 4
+1 FOR lvl 8
+1 DEX lvl 12
+1 DEX lvl 16
+1 FOR lvl 20

FEATS:

Human:Stand Still
Fighter 1: Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Dwarven Warpike), Combat Expertise
Fighter 2: Combat Reflexes
Crusader 3: Extra Granted Maneuver
Crusader 6: Dodge
Crusader 9: Karmic Strike
Crusader 12: Robillar's Gambit
Crusader 15: Defensive Sweep
Crusader 18: Overwhelming Assault



MANEUVERS PROGRESSION:

LEVEL 1
CRUSADER 1: Iron Guard's GLare (Stance, Devo), Crusader's Strike(Devo), Leading the Attack(White), Stone Bones (Stone), Charging Minotaur(Stone), Vanguard Strike(Devo)

LEVEL 2

+1 STANCE
CRUSADER 2: Stonefoot Stance (Stance, Stone),


+1 Maneuver
CRUSADER 3: Battle Leader's Charge(White)

LEVEL 3

SWAP
CRUSADER 4: Vanguard Strike(Devo) ----> Defensive Rebuke(Devo)

+1 Maneuver

CRUSADER 5: White Raven Tactics(White)

LEVEL 4
SWAP
CRUSADER 6: Crusader's Strike(Devo)---> Revitalizing Strike(Devo)

+1 Maneuver
CRUSADER 7: Divine Surge(Devo)

LEVEL 5

+1 STANCE
SWAP CRUSADER 8: Thicket of Blades(Devo, Stance), Stone Bones (Stone) ----> Elder Mountain Hammer(Stone)

+1 Maneuver
CRUSADER 9 Flanking Maneuver(White)


LEVEL 6
SWAP CRUSADER 10 Battle Leader's Charge(White) ----> War Leader's Charge (White)

+1 Maneuver
CRUSADER 11 Order Forged From Chaos (White)

LEVEL 7
SWAP CRUSADER 12 Vanguard Strike(Devo) ----> Swarming Assault(White)

+1 Maneuver
CRUSADER 13 Castigating Strike (Devo)

LEVEL 8
+1 STANCE
SWAP CRUSADER 14 Immortal Fortitude(Stance, Devo), Elder Mountain Hammer(Stone) -> Ancient Mountain Hammer(Stone)

+1 Maneuver
CRUSADER 15 Adamantine Bones (Stone)

LEVEL 9
SWAP CRUSADER 16 Revitalizing Strike(Devo) ---> Strike of Righteous Vitality(Devo)

+1 Maneuver
CRUSADER 17 War Master's Charge (White)

CRUSADER 18 ---------------------------

As you can possibly see, this is a AOO machine. With Thicket of Blades + Stand Still nothing moves. You also get Robillar's and Karmic Strike, which means that if you can take the beating, you'll be having 2 AOO's per enemy attack that's directed to you. That means that if an enemy full-attacks you, you'll full attack them, twice. Combine that with maneuvers like Swarming Assault and other White Raven maneuvers that make allies attack when you attack (even if that's not their turn), and you can wreck things pretty good.

White raven tactics means you can set up situations for your allies, and them have them attack right after you for maximum tactical advantage. War Leader's Charge/War Master's Charge means your party Glass Cannon will deal even more damage than usual, and BBEG's will fall before your might. You have Order Forged from Chaos to position yourself and your allies as you see fit. Immortal Fortitude means you'll NEVER die once you hit level 16 and have some way of healing yourself (Which you do). For swarms of enemies, Iron Guard's Glare means your allies will have numerous bonuses to hit.

It's a Lose-Lose situation for them.

If they attack you, you get AOO's on them and they will be punished.
If they move, you attack them and they won't move.
If they don't attack you, you'll attack them due to Defensive Rebuke.

Revitalizing Strike/Crusader's Strike/Strike of Righteous Vitality/Stone Bones/Adamantine Bones are all maneuvers that will make you hard to kill. If you can give up thicket of blades, and use instead martial spirit as your stance, you'll have even more resilience. And, as always, you have your Steely Resolve/Furious Counterstrike to punish everyone.


Dwarven Warpike is a weapon from Races of Stone that's: 2d6 20/x2 Piercing/Slashing has reach, can be readied against a charge, and grants bonus to trip attempts. It's the ultimate tank weapon. If you choose to do so, you can abdicate that and use a Guisarme instead, and use the extra feat to get another Extra Granted Maneuver, or Adaptive Style, or Stone Power, if you so choose.


For equipment, you should be shooting for a Belt of Battle [MIC] for extra actions, rods/potions of Enlarge Person or some other way of boosting your reach. Also, if you have a Shield Sheath (Races of Stone), you can heath/unsheath a light weapon as a free action. That means you can use the short sword for your AOO's on enemies adjacent to you. Armor Spikes means you're always threatening adjacent squares. And finally, anything that boosts your AC, Strenght, and Constitution, are good purchases.


Have fun playing your battlefield commander crusader =)

[HamHam]

The Crusader recovery mechanic is the best recovery mechanic, once you stop to think about it(assuming Extra Granted Maneuver):

On round 1, you get 3 out of 5 readied maneuvers granted to you. On your turn, you proceed to use one of them, and it goes to your expended maneuver pool.

On round 2, you recover all your expended maneuvers and have one more maneuver granted to you. Since you expended 1 maneuver on turn 1, and you have one more maneuver granted, you then have 5 out of 5 maneuvers granted. You then use one more of your maneuvers.

On round 3, you recover your ONLY expended maneuver. And now you have all of your maneuvers granted to you at all times.

If you do the math, this is going to be true even at level 20. Once you hit round 3, there is no more randomness. You can use your favorite maneuver every turn you get. And since you don't have the Warblade's restriction on not using maneuvers the turn you recover them, you have a mechanic that is intrinsically better than his. If you DON'T choose Extra Granted Maneuver, then you'll have randomness until round 3.

This is not how it works. Like, at all.

Round 1: You get 3 of your 5.

Round 2: You get one more.

Round 3: You get your last one.

Round 4: You shuffle everything back and get 3 again at random. Repeat.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

The Crusader recovery mechanic is the best recovery mechanic, once you stop to think about it(assuming Extra Granted Maneuver):

On round 1, you get 3 out of 5 readied maneuvers granted to you. On your turn, you proceed to use one of them, and it goes to your expended maneuver pool.

On round 2, you recover all your expended maneuvers and have one more maneuver granted to you. Since you expended 1 maneuver on turn 1, and you have one more maneuver granted, you then have 5 out of 5 maneuvers granted. You then use one more of your maneuvers.

On round 3, you recover your ONLY expended maneuver. And now you have all of your maneuvers granted to you at all times.

If you do the math, this is going to be true even at level 20. Once you hit round 3, there is no more randomness. You can use your favorite maneuver every turn you get. And since you don't have the Warblade's restriction on not using maneuvers the turn you recover them, you have a mechanic that is intrinsically better than his. If you DON'T choose Extra Granted Maneuver, then you'll have randomness until round 3.

Cue Morbo...

Assuming you have Extra Granted Maneuver, it goes as follows:
Prior to combat: Choose 5 Readied Maneuvers. As normal, you cannot have the same maneuver readied more than once.

Round 1: 3 maneuvers are granted, 2 are withheld. If you expend one, then you're left with 2 granted, 1 expended, 2 withheld.

Round 2: Another maneuver is granted, leaving one withheld. Expend another one, and you're left with 2 granted, 2 expended, 1 withheld.

Round 3: Your final maneuver is granted, leaving none withheld. Expend another one, and you're left with 2 granted, 3 expended, 0 withheld.

Round 4: No more maneuvers are withheld, so all of your expended maneuvers are recovered and the cycle returns to what happens on Round 1.

Maneuvers expended and maneuvers withheld are completely different things, and none are recovered until the round after the last withheld maneuver is granted. It does not shorten the cycle to use a maneuver every round, it does not make it take longer to cycle through if you don't use any maneuvers at all.

The only way to use the same maneuver every round would be to only ready three maneuvers instead of the full five, thus giving you a one-round cycle at the end of which your expended maneuver is recovered. This is not even possible, because according to ToB page 48, the last sentence before the heading 'Initiating Maneuvers and Stances' reads,
"Unlike a wizard preparing her spells, you cannot choose to leave a readied maneuver slot unfilled."