V becoming more ambiguous?

[TVTMaster]

It seems to me that V's gender isn't the only thing that the Giant is deliberately keeping unknown- with this whole mini-arc with the fiends, V's alignment is also being drawn into question. It used to be that V's unpredictable actions caused endless debate between Good and Neutral, but now with the Soul Splice storyline, the floodgates have been opened for even more debate about hir alignment- Evil is no longer off the table.

I think it's safe to say that V is discussed more than any other character on these forums, and I'm wondering if it's maybe the Giant's intention to make V progressively more mysterious- we don't know hir gender, moral alignment, fate (a point was made of making it 50-50 in 668), relationship status, or even whether or not the ponytail is a permanent art change! Seemingly none of V's recent character development has actually clarified anything about hir. It's all just raised more questions and plot points.

So if the Giant deliberately making V an even more ambiguous character, or is this simply necessary as a part of the overarcing plot? Will we ever get any answers?

[Optimystik]

The difference between alignment and gender is that there is a neutral alignment.

[Vemynal]

heh technically theres a neutral gender XD

actually if u really want to get into it theres 5...

society just tends to only recognize 2 or 3 really

[Optimystik]

actually if u really want to get into it

...I think I'll pass, thanks...

[[TS] Shadow]

I think that the Giant is just completely overloading all of the development for V all at once. If you think about it, he's been relatively undefined for a while now. Compare that to Haley, who's been consistantly been growing. V has had a few really tough moments and made some really hard choices coughmurdercough and these sudden decisions are reflected through sudden plot elements. It's been handled really well.

[Jaltum]

Not only is V extremely ambiguous--we don't know V's spouse's gender, or if they're the same or different genders, since the kids are adopted, either--but that mystery has now collided with the mystery of Sabine's alignment, which has spread to include the IFCC. (See the multitude of debates over which one is which and what the alignment is.)

It's interesting to note, though--just as V always insists, none of these things actually matter to the situation at hand.

If V was clearly a woman, people would say, "Oh, that's just like a mother, to freak out over her kids, and get all irrational instead of thinking it through." If V was clearly a man, people would say, "Oh, that's just like a man, trying to solve the problem with overwhelming force." And so on. The ambiguity actually cuts out irrelevant side issues.

[Crabs Magee]

heh technically theres a neutral gender XD

actually if u really want to get into it theres 5...

society just tends to only recognize 2 or 3 really

Yeah, lets get into that. You've sparked my interest. Last time I checked, there are only two genders in humans.

Not only is V extremely ambiguous--we don't know V's spouse's gender, or if they're the same or different genders, since the kids are adopted, either--but that mystery has now collided with the mystery of Sabine's alignment, which has spread to include the IFCC. (See the multitude of debates over which one is which and what the alignment is.)

Where does it say V's children are adopted? People keep saying this, but in what strip does it say this?

[thepsyker]

Where does it say V's children are adopted? People keep saying this, but in what strip does it say this?

I think people are assuming it based on the kids both appearing to be of a darker pigmentation then either V or V's spouse.

edit:or it could be what DBear said, which I completely missed :endedit

OT, saying that V can go either way with equate likely hood seems to suggest a neutral alignment to me. One would think that if V were either good or evil the chances would be shifted more one way then the other. Or I might be reading to much into the 50/50.

[DBear]

#631, panel 8

[Crabs Magee]

#631, panel 8

Ah, thank you.

[Kish]

OT, saying that V can go either way with equate likely hood seems to suggest a neutral alignment to me. One would think that if V were either good or evil the chances would be shifted more one way then the other. Or I might be reading to much into the 50/50.

If Vaarsuvius was unambiguously neutral, and the fiends predicted him/her dying as unambiguously neutral, his/her destination in the afterlife would be unambiguous (and one of the neutral planes). Good is not synonymous with Nonevil. The fiend said there's a 50% chance of Vaarsuvius going to one of the evil afterlives, which leaves a total 50% chance of anywhere but a lower plane.

[Sereg]

Check out the thread labeled V: Soup or Salad, it's all about V's ambiguity.

[factotum]

I think the fact the fiends said they had a 50/50 chance of getting V's soul after the thing with the dragons, coupled with the phraseology they used when they first met him ("Obviously, you have the good. Or the neutral, as the case may be"--see strip #633) pretty clearly indicates he was definitely neutral before, and Familicide may have pushed him into the Evil camp. (Guessing they don't know for sure because they don't control whoever will judge V's case for going to the Neutral afterlife).

[Boaromir]

Yeah, lets get into that. You've sparked my interest. Last time I checked, there are only two genders in humans

Gender and the sex of someone are two different concepts. Biologically speaking, the presence of the Y-chromosome or not determines the sex of a person. Gender is less of a biological term and more of a social term. That's where male, female, genderqueer, etc. come from. At least as far as I learned in basic sociology. Someone might be able to come i n and explain it better and more indepth than I could.

[Jaltum]

The one thing I would add, Boaromir, just to forestall an inevitable discussion--let's all remember that 'gender' and 'sex' don't inherently 'mean' anything. They're labels we invented in our language to discuss certain concepts.

You're right that modern sociologists use those terms the way you've described, because they feel like it's a better model for reality. But a model is always just a model. It's not that there 'are' five or three or two genders; it's that a lot of people find it more acccurate to use a model of five genders to try and accurately sort and describe the experiences people have.

"Your model is less accurate than mine, because it over/underemphasizes XYZ" is a more productive discussion than "My definition is right and yours is wrong." The latter tends to lead to people quoting dictionaries and textbooks back and forth at each other.

[The Rose Dragon]

Biologically speaking, the presence of the Y-chromosome or not determines the sex of a person.

There are three sexes: male, that is people with XY chromosomes and male genitalia; female, that is people with XX chromosomes and female genitalia; and other, that is anyone else.

The presence of a Y chromosome alone determines nothing.

[Kaytara]

Don't forget that we don't know V's age, either. In Paladin Blues, his age is "130?". In Origins, he writes 103 on his application form. The contradiction is responded to by the Giant with something like "What, you've never met anyone who's lied about their age?". Plus there's V's cameo appearance in Start of Darkness, about 50-60 years before the current storyline, at a time when, were he 130, he'd still be in his early teens and in his master's tower. (Some say it's just an error that isn't supposed to mean anything save emphasize that elves are OLD, but I have trouble believing Rich would put a character into a prequel scene set in the deep past without checking if it's even possible for the character to have been there at that time.)

If Vaarsuvius was unambiguously neutral, and the fiends predicted him/her dying as unambiguously neutral, his/her destination in the afterlife would be unambiguous (and one of the neutral planes).

Nope. Remember, Roy died as Lawful Good and due to his actions could have ended up in the Neutral Good Afterlife were it not for his dedication. I take this to mean that V could die Neutral but then discover that his record is too appalling and that no Neutral Afterlife would have him.

[Jaltum]

Forgot to mention--the mystery of the MitD came into play, too. A heavily mysterious storyline.

[Zanaril]

Plus there's V's cameo appearance in Start of Darkness, about 50-60 years before the current storyline, at a time when, were he 130, he'd still be in his early teens and in his master's tower.

Could have been a field trip.

[Dixieboy]

There are three sexes: male, that is people with XY chromosomes and male genitalia; female, that is people with XX chromosomes and female genitalia; and other, that is anyone else.

The presence of a Y chromosome alone determines nothing.

XYY
and XXY still have male genitalia (I'm 98% sure, else i need to throw out another one o' mah books)

So the Y chromosone alone does indeed determine something alone, unless i misunderstood something.

[Kaytara]

Could have been a field trip.

Maybe, except V already looked fully-grown and fully equipped there...

[NerfTW]

It seems to me that V's gender isn't the only thing that the Giant is deliberately keeping unknown- with this whole mini-arc with the fiends, V's alignment is also being drawn into question. It used to be that V's unpredictable actions caused endless debate between Good and Neutral, but now with the Soul Splice storyline, the floodgates have been opened for even more debate about hir alignment- Evil is no longer off the table.

I'm too busy to read this thread, but I want to put in my two cents, sorry if it's already been brought up.

First, Neutral is V's most likely alignment, and we've repeatedly seen that he/she acts in her own favor first and foremost. I think the idea of actions without intent changing alignment to be ridiculous. If one still acts in their own self interest, while erring on the side of "don't kill innocents", they're still neutral.

That said, the "making hard decisions at the expense of your values" is a current theme right now. V isn't the only one. Haley has so far allowed Belkar to murder a random gnome without dumping him because she needed his help. Then she murdered Crystal rather than risk future attacks from the thieves guild. Whether you think that's a good or evil action, it's still definitely against what we've seen of her and she's clearly hiding it from others.

Belkar is another example in the other direction. He's realized that he has to be "good" in order to continue to receive the protection that the Order offers him. Because he knows that if he leaves, Roy will eventually hunt him down and stop him out of a sense of responsibility.

Durkon has just realized that his insistence on staying with the Azurites was potentially harming the search for Haley, although that's less so.

I foresee their moral choices coming into more prominence in the next book.

[Scarlet Knight]

"V becoming more ambiguous? "

Is that even possible?

[Zanaril]

"V becoming more ambiguous? "

Is that even possible?

Evidently.

[Xenogears]

Gender and the sex of someone are two different concepts. Biologically speaking, the presence of the Y-chromosome or not determines the sex of a person. Gender is less of a biological term and more of a social term. That's where male, female, genderqueer, etc. come from. At least as far as I learned in basic sociology. Someone might be able to come i n and explain it better and more indepth than I could.

There is also a Native American Tribe (I forget which one. Sociology was too long ago.) that has the Two-Spirit gender which is considered by them to be a third seperate gender. Then India (I Think) had the ummm. Hijra? maybe. Another non-male non-female gender. There are other groups as well. I'm sure if you added up all the various cultures number of genders there would be a LOT more than just 5.

[Optimystik]

Plus there's V's cameo appearance in Start of Darkness, about 50-60 years before the current storyline, at a time when, were he 130, he'd still be in his early teens and in his master's tower. (Some say it's just an error that isn't supposed to mean anything save emphasize that elves are OLD, but I have trouble believing Rich would put a character into a prequel scene set in the deep past without checking if it's even possible for the character to have been there at that time.)

V's in SoD? Where? I had no idea!

[Jaltum]

What looks like the back of V's head is present during a tour of Fyron's magical lab.

[Haven]

"V becoming more ambiguous? "

Is that even possible?

Maybe, it's hard to tell.

[Zanaril]

The ambiguousness of V is inversely proportional to the number of solid facts we have about the MiTD.

As V has been veering towards evil, the MiTD has been becomming more good...

As V has picked up the idiot ball, the MITD is starting to think for itself...


...The MiTD is V's twin?!

[Ceryan]

There are three sexes: male, that is people with XY chromosomes and male genitalia; female, that is people with XX chromosomes and female genitalia; and other, that is anyone else.

The presence of a Y chromosome alone determines nothing.

There are two genders, according to the XY sex-determination system. Those people with extra Y's or X's are genetic anomalies, and can have impaired speech and language skills, infertility or other problems. They are not a different gender.

Genetic identity disorders are psychological problems, and have no relation to what the persons' gender is since it can happen to both males and females.

Sexuality is a completely different subject, however.


V may be becoming more ambiguous, but at least it's not impossible to relate to hir now.