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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Halfling in the Playground
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    Default (3.5) Arcane Gish Prc's

    What would you guys recommend for a character that is planning on being an arcane gish character, prestige class wise?

    I've heard that there are some good ones out there, but I can't seem to find what I'm looking for. I'm looking for a prestige class that has full spellcasting advancement and full bab. I don't really need a lot of fancy class features since I'll have spells.

    The only ones that I can easily find are the Abjurant Champion, which is nice, and the Eldritch Knight, which is fine but loses a level of spellcasting. Can anyone recommend others?

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Troll in the Playground
     
    WhiteWizardGirl

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    Default Re: (3.5) Arcane Gish Prc's

    I recommend lightning warrior, you lose out on your awesome familiar of doom though.


    On a slightly more serious note, I find swiftblade to be the epitome of awesome, though you lose a fair number of casting levels.

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    Colossus in the Playground
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    Default Re: (3.5) Arcane Gish Prc's

    Unfortunately, no full casting, full BAB classes exist outside Abjurant Champion. I'll offer the next best thing, simple gish shells with 9th level arcane casting you can build in 3.5 without homebrew:

    1. Full BAB 1*/Wizard 5/Eldritch Knight 1/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Eldritch Knight** ->

    Generic Wizard/Fighter Gish with 18th level Wizard casting and 17 BAB. No fancy abilities beyond a bunch of bonus feats and Abjurant Champion's arcane defense boosts. This works just as well with Sorcerer, though Wizard is simply better crunch-wise.

    2. Wizard 6/Swiftblade 9***/Abjurant Champion 5

    Great for races with automatic martial weapon proficiency (such as Elves) with their autoqualification for Swiftblade and Abjurant Champion allowing you to skip the initial Full BAB level entirely; Swiftblade gives you a heap of insanely awesome abilities and Abjurant Champion is still Abjurant Champion.

    You lose 3 levels of casting, but you get an extra action each turn out of Swiftblade; for a Gish, it can be worth it. 17 BAB, 17th level casting. You could go for a Sorcerer too, but that would miss out on 9th level spells.

    3. Paladin 2/Sorcerer 4/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Sacred Exorcist 8

    A gish with a divine flair, you get access to Turn Undead from Sacred Exorcist and Cha to saves from Paladin and a Smite; nice union of arcane casting and divine Smiting The Holy Hell Out Of The Heathens (and for those wanting more Charismatic characters). 16 BAB, 18th level casting.

    4. Warblade**** 1/Wizard 5/Jade Phoenix Mage 2/Abjurant Champion 4/Jade Phoenix Mage ->

    A Martial Adept (although with very limited school access; worth picking up an array of schools with Warblade and use some money to purchase the items that grant access to higher level maneuvers of other schools (Cloak of the White Raven, etc.) - also Heroics-spell [Spell Compendium] with Martial Study-feat works) with good arcane casting and some nifty abilities. 17 BAB, 17th level casting.

    5. Bard 7/X 3/Sublime Chord 2/Abjurant Champion 4/Sacred Exorcist 4

    The way to go in case you really want multiple levels in a non-casting class while still maintaining access to 9th level spells. X 3 can be anything from Swashbuckler 3 to Arcane Duelist-levels (for Cha to AC) to Arcane Archer to whatever; point is, Sublime Chord forgives 3 levels of non-casting entirely once you enter it, making this a great shell for builds that want to lose caster levels and still pretend they have full casting.

    You do miss out on the crucial low-level buffs though, so using Bard 1/(Battle) Sorcerer 6 or Bard 1/Wizard 5 instead can be used to customize your spell list (mind your casting stat and BAB considerations though). Of course, it's worth noting that Wizard can afford 3 lost levels of casting too, but technically Sublime Chord can afford 4 (although you usually want full casting to get multiple 9th level spells known) and Chord is Charisma-based, and can use higher BAB entry classes without suffering of it as much as a Wizard. Trade-off either way.


    * Fighter, Paladin, Warblade, Crusader, Ranger and Barbarian are all fair choices, though the armor proficiency requirements of Spellsword can block Warblade, Barbarian and Ranger (it can be dropped for extra Eldritch Knight-level here). Also, if you have access to the Militia-feat [PGtF], you can enter off Wizard 6 base if you skip Spellsword, giving you 19th level casting.
    ** Replace Eldritch Knight with Knight Phantom [5Nations] to suit taste - Eldritch is slightly stronger though
    *** Suit Swiftblade 10 to taste; absolutely incredible ability, but 4th lost casting level means you'll miss out on the strongest pre-epic ability in the game - 9th level arcane spells; either is a good option
    ****Crusader will work just as well, suit to taste


    Non-Core Sources Mentioned:
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    Swiftblade [WoTC Site]
    Arcane Duelist [WoTC Site]
    Battle Sorcerer [Unearthed Arcana, SRD]
    Spellsword [Complete Warrior]
    Swashbuckler [Complete Warrior]
    Sublime Chord [Complete Arcane]
    Sacred Exorcist [Complete Divine]
    Abjurant Champion [Complete Mage]
    Knight Phantom [Five Nations; Eberron-book]
    Warblade [Tome of Battle]
    Crusader [Tome of Battle]
    Jade Phoenix Mage [Tome of Battle]
    Militia [Feat - Player's Guide to Faerun; Forgotten Realms-book]
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  4. - Top - End - #4
    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: (3.5) Arcane Gish Prc's

    Quote Originally Posted by Kylarra View Post
    I recommend lightning warrior, you lose out on your awesome familiar of doom though.
    Sorry, I threw up reading that class.

    Losing a familiar ISN'T worth full BAB, free TWF feats and more bonus feats.

    This is rediculous.

  5. - Top - End - #5
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Sstoopidtallkid's Avatar

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    Default Re: (3.5) Arcane Gish Prc's

    Quote Originally Posted by BenTheJester View Post
    Sorry, I threw up reading that class.

    Losing a familiar ISN'T worth full BAB, free TWF feats and more bonus feats.

    This is rediculous.
    THIS! IS! EPIC TROLLING!

    Seriously, one of the best trolls I've seen in a long time was that one. Great account.
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    I play primarily 3.5 D&D. Most of my advice will be based off of this. If my advice doesn't apply, specify a version in your post.

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    Ettin in the Playground
     
    AslanCross's Avatar

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    Default Re: (3.5) Arcane Gish Prc's

    I'll second Eldariel and recommend Abjurant Champion. It's easy to qualify for, is loaded with features, and is only 5 levels long.


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    Ogre in the Playground
     
    SwashbucklerGuy

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    Default Re: (3.5) Arcane Gish Prc's

    Quote Originally Posted by Kylarra View Post
    I recommend lightning warrior, you lose out on your awesome familiar of doom though.
    I Love that thread, so many people take him seriously...
    Doug

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  8. - Top - End - #8
    Troll in the Playground
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    Default Re: (3.5) Arcane Gish Prc's

    Quote Originally Posted by Kylarra View Post
    I recommend lightning warrior, you lose out on your awesome familiar of doom though.
    Too weak. It should've been given spontaneous casting from the whole sorcerer/wizard spell list, a bit like a warmage. That would've replaced familiar properly.

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    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    RogueGuy

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    Default Re: (3.5) Arcane Gish Prc's

    Quote Originally Posted by Adumbration View Post
    Too weak. It should've been given spontaneous casting from the whole sorcerer/wizard spell list, a bit like a warmage. That would've replaced familiar properly.
    And sneak attack progression like a Rogue. Only way to balance the class.




  10. - Top - End - #10
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    SwashbucklerGuy

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    Default Re: (3.5) Arcane Gish Prc's

    Quote Originally Posted by Thespianus View Post
    And sneak attack progression like a Rogue. Only way to balance the class.



    nope, that would be unbalanced, he gets 2 weapon fighting which everyone knows is sub-par without an extra source of damage (such as sneak attack).
    Doug

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  11. - Top - End - #11
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    Haven's Avatar

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    Default Re: (3.5) Arcane Gish Prc's

    Quote Originally Posted by Sstoopidtallkid View Post
    THIS! IS! EPIC TROLLING!

    Seriously, one of the best trolls I've seen in a long time was that one. Great account.
    I wouldn't call that guy a troll. I would say that people got trolled, but I imagine that he thought that everyone would be in on the joke. I mean...d20 hit points. To compensate for not having tracking.

    But he failed to realize that Wisdom is a pretty big popular dump stat for D&D players too, and just ran with it. Seriously: there's not being able to tell sarcasm due to lack of vocal cues, and then there's...that.

    But to attempt to contribute to the topic: Abjurant Champion is amazing, whether or not you're interested in abjurations. I'd also recommend the Jade Phoenix Mage path, because ToB just wins. It lets you apply metamagic feats to your spells for free after using maneuvers, and its capstone is exploding and being reborn. Nothing beats that.
    Last edited by Haven; 2009-07-12 at 06:30 AM.
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    SwashbucklerGuy

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    Default Re: (3.5) Arcane Gish Prc's

    Abjurant Champion is worthwhile just for the fact that you get to cast shield spell as a quickened action for double duration and 5 extra AC.... getting all your other abjuration durations doubled and all abjurations of 3rd level or lower quickened... well, I like it a lot. Unfortunately the only other AC boosting spell that benefits from Abjurant Champions AC boost is ectoplasmic armour, but try to get a ethereal touch attack on my character..... Good Luck.
    Doug

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  13. - Top - End - #13
    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: (3.5) Arcane Gish Prc's

    Wow, my bad. Yes I got trolled. Sorry about that.

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    Keld Denar's Avatar

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    Default Re: (3.5) Arcane Gish Prc's

    No Suel Arcanamach love?

    Barb2/Fighter2/Duskblade2/Suel4/AbChamp5/Spellsword1/DragonDisc4

    Gets 5th level spells from Transmutation, Illusion, Abjuration, and Divination and 18/20 BAB. Also has undispellable buffs, all buffs are automatically Extended, with Abjurations being Extended TWICE!. Cast a Bite of the Were-Tiger and go to town with your insanely inflated Str score while protecting yourself with Greater Mirror Image and/or Greater Invisibility.

    Sure, doesn't get the epic 9th level spell pwnage, but also doesn't have the saggy middle levels that a traditional gish has between 2 and 6 or so. Its strong and effective without being over the top like many other builds.
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    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    John Campbell's Avatar

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    Default Re: (3.5) Arcane Gish Prc's

    I'm fond - possibly too fond - of Runesmith as a fighter/mage prestige class. It's not a traditional fighter/mage prestige class - it gets full caster progression, but only Wizard BAB - but you only need a one-level dip, and it's an easy one to qualify for, so you can probably be in and out before you could qualify for EK or AC anyway.

    The thing that makes it nice for a fighter/mage is that one level gives you the ability to Still all of your spells practically for free, so ASF becomes irrelevant. There's none of this knocking off 10% here and getting the ability to cast in light armor there... you can stomp around in adamantine full plate and fling spells around without a hitch.

    You have to be a dwarf (or waste levels on Stoneblessed or something), but being a dwarf is not exactly a hardship. Their Con bonus comes in real handy for a front-line caster, too...

    The PC in my avatar is currently Fighter 2/Wizard 6/Runesmith 2/Eldritch Knight 4/Abjurant Champion 3... his last three levels (if I ever play him again) will finish out AC and pick up Spellsword 1. This is not exactly the build he'd have if I'd known as much about 3.x when I started the character as I do now, but it's not far off, either. The order of the classes is the main difference... he'd be long done AC by now if I'd known about it ten levels ago.

    At 20th level, he'll cast as Wizard 17, with caster level equal to HD and effectively no ASF, and have a +16 BAB, so he gets 9th level spells and his fourth attack before epic.


    I've been thinking about doing a front-liner Mystic Theurge using Runesmith, too... Cleric of Haela Brightaxe 3/Wizard 2/Runesmith 1/Mystic Theurge 10/Abjurant Champion 4. Casts as Wizard 17 (CL 20) in heavy armor with no ASF, Cleric 13 (CL 17), +11 BAB (suck, but clerical buffs might make up for it). I suspect she'll be too fragile to get away with it, though. Having to maintain 2.5 casting stats doesn't leave enough points for Con and so on. She's MAD as hell, needs everything except for maybe Dex, and even that's really handy until 6th level when she can get into armor without wrecking her Wizard casting.
    Play your character, not your alignment.

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    InkEyes's Avatar

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    Default Re: (3.5) Arcane Gish Prc's

    Quote Originally Posted by Eldariel View Post
    Non-Core Sources Mentioned:
    Spoiler
    Show
    Swiftblade [WoTC Site]
    Arcane Duelist [WoTC Site]
    Battle Sorcerer [Unearthed Arcana, SRD]
    Spellsword [Complete Warrior]
    Swashbuckler [Complete Warrior]
    Sublime Chord [Complete Arcane]
    Sacred Exorcist [Complete Divine]
    Abjurant Champion [Complete Mage]
    Knight Phantom [Five Nations; Eberron-book]
    Warblade [Tome of Battle]
    Crusader [Tome of Battle]
    Jade Phoenix Mage [Tome of Battle]
    Militia [Feat - Player's Guide to Faerun; Forgotten Realms-book]
    Knight Phantom is also up on Wizard's site here.

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