[d20] Multiple Attacks: Useful Tactic or Game Slowing?

[Otogi]

Does anybody find extra attacks in the d20 useful, making warriors tougher, more attractive and balancing them out to spellcasters? Or does it feel like a painfully slow, encumbering mechanic that might not even be useful?

[Ent]

All of the above except balancing them against spellcasters. It really does make them better at the same time as making their actions slower to resolve. even the most prepared player seems to grind down in the resolution of attacks. [Opinion]

[Darwin]

The interesting part about being a caster is that you can do anything. As a warrior you can usually only do one thing, so it's not really a question of "what" you can do, but "how much".

In general I find extra attacks tedious and largely unnecessary. ToB fixed melee characters, most fighter fixes I've seen are either copying ToB, or not working at all.

[Otogi]

Alright, so barring ToB, are they useful or just annoying?

[shadow_archmagi]

Alright, so barring ToB, are they useful or just annoying?

Both! Fire provides heat but it uses up wood and can hurt my hand.

[Mr.Moron]

The full-attack is a clunky mechanic, but it's problem really isn't that it slows gameplay. If you're finding the rolling to be a time issue, do it on the turn before yours. Then simply call out your attack rolls and damage when your init comes up.

That'll help keep the pace up when you have multiple attacks to resolve. It's not just warriors this is helpful for. When you're a wizard or druid with four summoned creatures in play, pre-rolling for them (even if they have 1 attack each) really helps speed things up.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

They were useful in prior editions, where fighters could make all their attacks and still move, they pretty much had an 80+% chance to hit with all of them, and could kill things quickly due to lower AC; then, it was a pain, but well worth it.

With the 3e combat/fighter nerfs? Not worth it at all.

[Matthew]

They are pretty much one of the worst ideas in D20. In theory you can see why they exist, but in practice they are just a waste of time and statistic block space.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

They are pretty much one of the worst ideas in D20. In theory you can see why they exist, but in practice they are just a waste of time and statistic block space.

Well, they're not new to d20--the fighter's always had them in some form--but I agree that giving them to everyone was a mistake.

[Matthew]

Well, they're not new to d20--the fighter's always had them in some form--but I agree that giving them to everyone was a mistake.

That and the rapidly decreasing returns on the dice [e.g. one 30% chance of hitting, followed by three 5% chances]. Star Wars Saga seemed like it got things right on that score.

[Otogi]

Thanks guys, I have a pretty good idea now.

[Knaight]

That and the rapidly decreasing returns on the dice [e.g. one 30% chance of hitting, followed by three 5% chances]. Star Wars Saga seemed like it got things right on that score.

I know you mainly stick to the retro games, but have you seen the fantasy adaptation for Star Wars Saga? Its a PDF available somewhere, and I think it does a better job of fantasy than D&D does. Far better balance, much faster, iterative attacks don't come standard, but you can get them, which simulates very fast characters, etc. Its not my first choice for cinematic fantasy, but its up there, and I really dislike classes and levels, which makes its ranking all the more impressive.

If I remember correctly you don't even have to deal with rapidly diminishing returns on the dice, as you sacrifice things you could have used to get better with armor, or magic/the force, or other parts of combat skill.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

I know you mainly stick to the retro games, but have you seen the fantasy adaptation for Star Wars Saga? Its a PDF available somewhere, and I think it does a better job of fantasy than D&D does. Far better balance, much faster, iterative attacks don't come standard, but you can get them, which simulates very fast characters, etc. Its not my first choice for cinematic fantasy, but its up there, and I really dislike classes and levels, which makes its ranking all the more impressive.

If I remember correctly you don't even have to deal with rapidly diminishing returns on the dice, as you sacrifice things you could have used to get better with armor, or magic/the force, or other parts of combat skill.

Well, I usually prefer D&D because of the idiosyncrasies that make it D&D, so I might have to disagree on the "does fantasy better" score for my personal games, but I would definitely like to see a fantasy SAGA for plundering ideas at the very least. Do you know where you can get it, or at least what the name is so I can look around?

[valadil]

To speed them up you could do something like rapid fire guns from GURPs. The way those work is that you make one roll and your degree of success determines how many shots hit. IE, if you beat the AC you hit once. If you beat the AC by 5+ you hit twice, 10+ means three hit, etc up to your total number of attacks.

This would probably gimp two weapon fighters and monks. Maybe they'd get a die for each hand? Or use a slightly smaller margin of success needed for a second hit?

[LibraryOgre]

Well, they're not new to d20--the fighter's always had them in some form--but I agree that giving them to everyone was a mistake.

Multiple attacks in other editions were an entirely different kettle of fish, however. You could still move and use them, and they all happened at the same ThAC0, meaning they were multiple good chances of hitting, as opposed to one chance and several prayers.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

Multiple attacks in other editions were an entirely different kettle of fish, however. You could still move and use them, and they all happened at the same ThAC0, meaning they were multiple good chances of hitting, as opposed to one chance and several prayers.

That's why I mentioned the tweaks in my first post on the issue--iteratives have fallen quite far since 1e, but the basic complaint that extra attacks take up extra time when you could have different effects instead (rerolls or bonus damage or whatever) has been around for a long time.

[Matthew]

I know you mainly stick to the retro games, but have you seen the fantasy adaptation for Star Wars Saga? Its a PDF available somewhere, and I think it does a better job of fantasy than D&D does. Far better balance, much faster, iterative attacks don't come standard, but you can get them, which simulates very fast characters, etc. Its not my first choice for cinematic fantasy, but its up there, and I really dislike classes and levels, which makes its ranking all the more impressive.

If I remember correctly you don't even have to deal with rapidly diminishing returns on the dice, as you sacrifice things you could have used to get better with armor, or magic/the force, or other parts of combat skill.

I know that a project of that sort was begun, but was not aware it had been completed. Might be worth a look, I will link it if I find a copy.