Is 3.5 Tumble broken?

[Twilight Jack]

This is a problem I've been thinking about casually for some time. Since all Tumble checks to avoid AoO are set against a flat DC, doesn't a decent Tumble score completely invalidate much of the danger of an opponent with abilities based upon reach?

Now I realize that there are certain feats and maneuvers that manage to circumvent this, but since feats are far more precious than skill points and maneuvers are specific mechanic for a small handful of melee classes, this seems to me to only highlight the base problem. It would seem to me that a more reasonable system might be to scale the base DC of Tumble checks off the BAB of the opponent whose AoO you're looking to circumvent.

Tell me why I'm wrong.

[PurinaDragonCho]

As DM, if you feel a player is abusing tumble, just put several enemies on the board, each no more than 10 feet apart. Or limit the battlefield in some other way to prevent tumbling. Why is it so vital that badguys get AoOs, anyway?

I personally don't see the problem. Besides, if the PCs can do it, NPCs can do it, too.

[Irreverent Fool]

Apparently any combat tactic other than 'walk up to any enemy and hit it in the face until one of your dies' is 'broken'.

obnoxious
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[valadil]

We use a fix for tumble in one of my games that leaves it powerful, but not broken. I'm not sure if this game from a book (it may even be the correct way of playing for all I know) or someone made it up.

Each AoO that you're trying to avoid requires a roll. Each roll after the first increases the DCs of later rolls by 2. So to avoid attacks from 3 opponents you'd need tumble checks at DC 15, 17, and 19. This worked well at the power level we were playing with, but you could probably justify increasing the DC modifier to 4 for each check. I think we were playing where a 1 was an automatic fail, so increasing the number of rolls instead of just the DC helped a lot.

[ericgrau]

Removing all AoO's doesn't make someone broken, if they pay skill points for it (and more if they're the wrong class). Most skills are actually like this - minor benefit with easy success - but most groups focus excessively on spot/hide, or DMs set the wrong DCs, or etc. Nerfing them is just a character-life-risking slap to the face to something that really doesn't need nerfing.

[Myrmex]

Tumble is quite broken. It's worth putting cross-class points in it, as long as you aren't going to be wearing heavy armor. My wizards tumble, my wildshaped druids tumble, everything I play tumbles. There's absolutely no reason not to invest in "I win" skills, is there?

[Eldariel]

Tumble is a powerful skill, yes, but with splatbooks in the mix, it becomes less omnipotent (at trivializing one combat build entirely in AoO-focused builds), mostly thanks to the existence of Thicket of Blades-stance in Tome of Battle and the whole Knight-class.

That said, yeah, it'd make sense to alter Tumble a bit to match the difficulty to opponent's offensive capabilities (harder to avoid AoOs from a skilled warrior than a Wizard holding a staff). In fact, I seem to recall seeing just such a fix in Unearthed Arcana, but I cannot seem to be able to locate it right now.

[Dogmantra]

That said, yeah, it'd make sense to alter Tumble a bit to match the difficulty to opponent's offensive capabilities (harder to avoid AoOs from a skilled warrior than a Wizard holding a staff).

I read a quick fix on these boards once: Tumble DC to avoid an AoO is 10 + BAB of threatener.

[Ent]

I read a quick fix on these boards once: Tumble DC to avoid an AoO is 10 + BAB of threatener.

Then Tumble becomes a required investment forever.

[adanedhel9]

Each AoO that you're trying to avoid requires a roll. Each roll after the first increases the DCs of later rolls by 2. So to avoid attacks from 3 opponents you'd need tumble checks at DC 15, 17, and 19.

This is RAW.

That being said, Tumble is pretty easy to get high enough where even the increasing DCs don't matter that much. I'm currently playing a mobile fighter type; at 5th level his Tumble is +15 - enough that, despite constantly dancing around busy battle fields, I think he's only taken 1 attack of opportunity (and that was a level or two ago).

I've heard of a fix where the DC to Tumble past any particular opponent is 10 + the opponent's BAB, with the DCs increasing over multiple attempts as above. I've never seen it in play (Tumble just hasn't been that big of an issue for my groups), but I like it in theory.

Then Tumble becomes a required investment forever.

Is that a bad thing?

[Person_Man]

Let's say that you do change how Tumble scales. For example, you make the DC for avoiding an AoO = 10 + BAB of the enemy.

This has no impact on the DM or AoO using PCs. The DM was always free to improve or nerf his encounters, and thus improve or nerf the AoO using PCs relative power. For example, I'm a DM designing an encounter for a Trip build Fighter player and three other PCs. If the Fighter is too strong compared the other PCs (a rare event), then I can easily raise the Tumble Skills of my enemies, or give them ranged weapons, or have them use spells, or psionics, or incarnum, etc. If the Fighter is too weak, I can easily lower the Tumble Skills of my enemies, lower their Str, have them mook rush him, or have them make morale checks when X number of them die, etc.

But the rules change does have an impact on Skill Monkey PCs (already the weakest in many cases), in that it forces them to spend more Skill Points to do exactly the same thing they could do before you changed the rule.

So really you're not accomplishing anything except slightly nerfing the Rogue et al PCs. And I don't see a good reason to do that.

[Myrmex]

Let's say that you do change how Tumble scales. For example, you make the DC for avoiding an AoO = 10 + BAB of the enemy.

This has no impact on the DM or AoO using PCs. The DM was always free to improve or nerf his encounters, and thus improve or nerf the AoO using PCs relative power. For example, I'm a DM designing an encounter for a Trip build Fighter player and three other PCs. If the Fighter is too strong compared the other PCs (a rare event), then I can easily raise the Tumble Skills of my enemies, or give them ranged weapons, or have them use spells, or psionics, or incarnum, etc. If the Fighter is too weak, I can easily lower the Tumble Skills of my enemies, lower their Str, have them mook rush him, or have them make morale checks when X number of them die, etc.

But the rules change does have an impact on Skill Monkey PCs (already the weakest in many cases), in that it forces them to spend more Skill Points to do exactly the same thing they could do before you changed the rule.

So really you're not accomplishing anything except slightly nerfing the Rogue et al PCs. And I don't see a good reason to do that.

Tumble's best for casters, esp. at low to mid levels, as it gives them a chance to move out of threatened squares with no penalty before attempting a concentration check to cast their spells.

[ericgrau]

Or you could put ranks in concentration. Low to mid level cross-class skills are harder to succeed on.

And I'd agree that skillmonkeys really don't need nerfing. They tend to be weak already, especially since a lot of DMs tend to raise DCs on other skills already.

[Curmudgeon]

Tumble is generally a skill that medium-to-weak characters have. They don't have much in the way of BAB or hit points. So is it a big deal that they can hold onto some of those hit points on the way to put their middling BAB to the test? I don't think so.

Tumble isn't broken. Leave it alone.

[Telonius]

Tell me why I'm wrong.

Elder Air Elemental. Size: Huge, CR 11, HD=20, BAB = 20. (Outsider BAB = HD).
10-headed Cryohydra. Size: Huge, CR 11, HD=10, BAB = 10 (Magical Beast BAB = HD).
Dread Wraith. Size: Large, CR 11, HD=16, BAB = 8 (Undead BAB = 1/2 HD)
Retriever. Size: Huge, CR 11, HD=10, BAB = 7 (Construct BAB = 3/4 HD)

Here you have a creature (the Retriever) that is supposed to be designed for fetching things that are trying to run away, that is less able to connect on something tumbling past him than a Dread Wraith (which has less reach than it does) or a Cryohydra. The Cryohydra might make a little more sense, with ten heads and all for a character to dodge past. But an Air Elemental being almost three times as tough as a Retriever?

[Person_Man]

Tumble's best for casters, esp. at low to mid levels, as it gives them a chance to move out of threatened squares with no penalty before attempting a concentration check to cast their spells.

I'll concede that. But that's a pretty good argument for abolishing cross class Skills (or at least restricting Tumble and UMD by making them class abilities instead of Skills), not for changing Tumble.

But even if a DM did choose to re-jigger the Tumble DC, it just makes Wizards spend 2 Skill points per level forever on Tumble (and maybe invest in a Tumble boosting magic item) instead of two points per level for 10 levels or so. That's not really much of a change.

[Sissyphus]

you could make tumble trained, an untrained tumbler uses 10 +bab while a trained tumbler uses the standard rules for tumbling, so that people who have it aren't really affected, people moving to get it (cross class) have to take a harder tumble check

[Eldariel]

Tumble is generally a skill that medium-to-weak characters have. They don't have much in the way of BAB or hit points. So is it a big deal that they can hold onto some of those hit points on the way to put their middling BAB to the test? I don't think so.

Tumble isn't broken. Leave it alone.

10+BAB checks are just as easy for a Rogue to make consistently as straight DC 15. I don't see the issue here. How often have you actually failed a Tumble-check in actual play? 'cause the only ones I remember failing are "jumping over the opponent"-ones, and those only 'cause I tried 'em too early, too often.

Even a level 2 Rogue can easily have 5 ranks, +2 synergy and +4 Dex for +11 Tumble. As his Dex keeps growing, he'll reach a point where he'll never fail on even natural 1s, and if he picks up Skill Mastery for Tumble, he can safely friggin' full-speed Tumble against anything but überhigh-BAB creatures.

[Deepblue706]

Tumble is absolutely fine. It's a DC 15 check to move at half speed and avoid AoOs, and DC 25 to do that through an enemy's occupied space. If there's dense undergrowth, or you're in a natural cavern, these checks get higher. Also, you get a -10 for accelerated Tumbling.

And then there's DC 35 for a Free Stand. And you can also eliminate some falling damage. Wow.

No way is it broken.

[Myrmex]

I'll concede that. But that's a pretty good argument for abolishing cross class Skills (or at least restricting Tumble and UMD by making them class abilities instead of Skills), not for changing Tumble.

But even if a DM did choose to re-jigger the Tumble DC, it just makes Wizards spend 2 Skill points per level forever on Tumble (and maybe invest in a Tumble boosting magic item) instead of two points per level for 10 levels or so. That's not really much of a change.

Making Tumble & UMD class abilities would probably be better, or at least make it so it's rogue only, like UMD was in 3.0 for bards & rogues.

[Rhawin]

Melee types avoiding AoOs while closing in with giant monsters is almost a fix. Tumble is only a problem when casters use it, really.

[Quietus]

If you feel Tumble is too powerful and is breaking your game, you could very easily make it into an opposed roll. Essentially, they roll Tumble when they move; That becomes their new AC, which the attack rolls now need to hit. So your average level 2 Rogue, with 16 dex and +1 studded leather, will have AC 17 normally. With 5 ranks in Tumble and 5 ranks in Jump, they've got a Tumble mod of +10 (5 ranks, 2 synergy, 3 dex). They've got an AC of 17 normally, but can choose to move at half speed, effectively raising their AC any time they roll better than a 7.

Now, instead of having to hit a flat DC of 15, their Tumble roll (let's say they roll a 10, for a total of 20) becomes their AC for that turn, for the purpose of attacks of opportunity. So the Fighter they're trying to flank MIGHT still hit them; He just has to roll against a higher effective AC.

Note that this also means Mobility doesn't become totally pointless (though it's still a poor feat); It would mean that even when you don't roll well on your Tumble check, your AC is 4 higher against AoO's.

[only1doug]

This is a problem I've been thinking about casually for some time. Since all Tumble checks to avoid AoO are set against a flat DC, doesn't a decent Tumble score completely invalidate much of the danger of an opponent with abilities based upon reach?

Now I realize that there are certain feats and maneuvers that manage to circumvent this, but since feats are far more precious than skill points and maneuvers are specific mechanic for a small handful of melee classes, this seems to me to only highlight the base problem. It would seem to me that a more reasonable system might be to scale the base DC of Tumble checks off the BAB of the opponent whose AoO you're looking to circumvent.

Tell me why I'm wrong.

My GM is using exactly that houserule, which makes tumble a skill that you either maximise or ignore... I'm not sure that it improves the flavour of the game but thats the houserule we are using.

[-Cor-]

I'm one of those people who's always looking for a story or character reason for something to exist, but nope... I don't think it's broken.

Sure... almost every character has it, whether it makes sense for them to or not. (80 year old Human Wizard... yup... he's got tumble... despite the arthritis.)

But anyway... why not? I mean... these are guys that are in a constant state of fighting monsters, people, etc... I think at some point they would've learned how to dodge, duck, dive, dip and dodge in some way.

[Curmudgeon]

10+BAB checks are just as easy for a Rogue to make consistently as straight DC 15.

You misunderstand me. I wasn't proposing to change how Tumble checks work. But Rogues have good skills, middling BAB and hit points, and weak AC. They can use Tumble to get to a place where they can test their BAB against enemy ACs. Against someone with good AC, medium BAB will miss a lot. Then they get to put their weak AC to the test on the counterattack. So is it a big deal that they might keep all their hit points up until they reach their intended target? No.

[Deepblue706]

But anyway... why not? I mean... these are guys that are in a constant state of fighting monsters, people, etc... I think at some point they would've learned how to dodge, duck, dive, dip and dodge in some way.

Actually, I'm pretty sure Tumble is almost exclusively Cartwheels.

[Eldariel]

You misunderstand me. I wasn't proposing to change how Tumble checks work. But Rogues have good skills, middling BAB and hit points, and weak AC. They can use Tumble to get to a place where they can test their BAB against enemy ACs. Against someone with good AC, medium BAB will miss a lot. Then they get to put their weak AC to the test on the counterattack. So is it a big deal that they might keep all their hit points up until they reach their intended target? No.

But the change doesn't change anything for them. Rogues will still be making their checks because of it being a class skill, their Dex-focus and their skill points affording them the ranks along with the later Skill Mastery.

Other characters though, especially ones cross-classing the skill, will at least have to contend with the IDEA of a possible failure on the check with the change; as it stands, just about anyone investing ranks in Tumble automakes the checks meaning the only characters AoOs are relevant to are heavily armored melee types.


As it stands, you just need ~5 ranks in Tumble with the synergies and you're done - you don't need to put any more ranks there ever. Why shouldn't a character investing more in Tumble be rewarded for it?

[snoopy13a]

As it stands, you just need ~5 ranks in Tumble with the synergies and you're done - you don't need to put any more ranks there ever. Why shouldn't a character investing more in Tumble be rewarded for it?

Tumble usually results in 1/2 speed. A stereotypical halfling rogue only can move 10' while tumbling. If you have more ranks in Tumble, you can take a -10 penalty and tumble at full speed.

[Indon]

If you feel Tumble is too powerful and is breaking your game, you could very easily make it into an opposed roll. Essentially, they roll Tumble when they move; That becomes their new AC, which the attack rolls now need to hit.

I like this houserule.

[Telonius]

All good points, but look at the numbers I gave above. If you key the check to BAB alone, you end up in a situation where a CR 11 monster is harder to tumble around than an Enlarged level 19 Fighter with a spiked chain and feats out the wazoo. To take an even more extreme example, a CR 10 Colossal animated object would have the check based off of BAB 24. The Fighter wouldn't reach that until Epic.