[3.5] Ray of Dizziness woes

[Thurbane]

Just curious - has anyone else had a problem with this (or similar) spells in a game? The Beguiler in our group picked this up through Advanced Learning, and the DM has been lamenting it ever since.

It's a ray, with no save, that reduces the target to 1 action per round (move or standard, no full round actions). The only defences are: A) very high touch AC, B) spell resistance or C) immunity to mind effects. We are playing a premade module, and the DM probably doesn't want to overhaul all of the encounters to account for Ray of Dizziness.

I realise the spell isn't broken, but seems a tad too hard to defend against for a 3rd level spell. It's turning a lot of our encounters into pushovers.

Has anyone else has similar experiences?

[Zaq]

The biggest weakness I see is that, like all (unmodified) rays, it affects a single target. It's a ridiculously good spell, sure, but it's less deadly against multiple non-mook opponents.

Oh, and full casters don't really need a move action. Sure, it helps, but they don't need it.

Finally, Iron Heart Surge.

[Alejandro]

Has the GM had a few enemy NPCs use Ray of Dizziness against the party? If not, try that and see how well they deal with it. I have found that players are wonderfully smart at coming up with ways to defend themselves, and then you can just note their idea and use it for your own purposes.

It's dirty, but it works well.

[shadow_archmagi]

Let's see.. third level SRD spells...

Sleet Storm causes AoE blindness and requires a balance check to not fall over.
Fly makes you completely immune to anyone who didn't bring a bow.
Displacement causes half of your attacks to fail.
Ray of Exhaustion gives a -6 to str and dex AND limits you to half-speed.
Wind Wall completely negates characters who *did* bring a bow.

These are all no-save options for 3rd level spells.

Ray of Dizziness hardly seems out of line to me.

[HamsterOfTheGod]

Just curious - has anyone else had a problem with this (or similar) spells in a game? The Beguiler in our group picked this up through Advanced Learning, and the DM has been lamenting it ever since.

It's a ray, with no save, that reduces the target to 1 action per round (move or standard, no full round actions). The only defences are: A) very high touch AC, B) spell resistance or C) immunity to mind effects. We are playing a premade module, and the DM probably doesn't want to overhaul all of the encounters to account for Ray of Dizziness.

I realise the spell isn't broken, but seems a tad too hard to defend against for a 3rd level spell. It's turning a lot of our encounters into pushovers.

Has anyone else has similar experiences?

It's not that broken. It's no shivering touch.

I'm not sure what is causing the DM fits unless all the encounters are solo monsters/npcs or groups which don't work well together.

There's probably no need to overhaul the encounters. The DM probably just has to play the opponents smarter. For example, in combat, target the spellcaster first :)

[Saph]

Let's see.. third level SRD spells...

Sleet Storm causes AoE blindness and requires a balance check to not fall over.
Fly makes you completely immune to anyone who didn't bring a bow.
Displacement causes half of your attacks to fail.
Ray of Exhaustion gives a -6 to str and dex AND limits you to half-speed.
Wind Wall completely negates characters who *did* bring a bow.

Ray of Dizziness is much more powerful than any of those, trust me. The only one on the same level is Fly, and that's there for utility value. For the record, Ray of Exhaustion does allow a save, and Wind Wall really doesn't bother archers very much unless they're limited in some other way.

It's on the borderline between powerful and broken. If you typically fight against large groups of enemies, it's balanced. If you typically fight single large melee monsters, then it crosses the line to brokenly good, as it turns the encounter into a joke.

It's not something I would automatically ban, but it's definitely there on the maybe list.

- Saph

[Gralamin]

Ray of Dizziness is much more powerful than any of those, trust me.

This is hardly a compelling argument

Honestly, I don't think its all that powerful of a spell. Partial Charging Pouncers still full-attack, Partial charging other things get a single attack... It's honestly not even as strong as Ego Whip.

[HamsterOfTheGod]

It's a ray, with no save, that reduces the target to 1 action per round (move or standard, no full round actions). The only defences are: A) very high touch AC, B) spell resistance or C) immunity to mind effects. We are playing a premade module, and the DM probably doesn't want to overhaul all of the encounters to account for Ray of Dizziness.

I realise the spell isn't broken, but seems a tad too hard to defend against for a 3rd level spell. It's turning a lot of our encounters into pushovers.

Another thought...if you and other players and the DM feel this way, then remove the touch attack roll and give it a Will save...

...or if that fails to satisfy retcon that the Beguiler picked some other spell for Advanced Learning and that in those instances that he uses Ray of Dizziness he was instead using something like the spell Hesitate from PHBII (Beguiler 3, Sor/Wiz 3. Basically the subject gets a Will save each round and if he fails he can take no action but move and defend. Attacking subject ends the spell.)

[Anxe]

Doesn't Bestow Curse do pretty much the same thing in making the victim take an action 50% of the time? It may seem broken, but with two spells doing the same thing I think WoTC meant for it to be in the rules.

[Leewei]

The only defences are: A) very high touch AC, B) spell resistance or C) immunity to mind effects. We are playing a premade module, and the DM probably doesn't want to overhaul all of the encounters to account for Ray of Dizziness.

D) Obscuring mist spell limiting his ability to see targets.

E) Enemies with Pounce that can get a full attack after a partial charge. Even without Pounce, most creatures can partial charge as a standard action.

F) Any opponent with mirror image cast.

These are just a few more that come to mind.

[Saph]

This is hardly a compelling argument

Honestly, I don't think its all that powerful of a spell. Partial Charging Pouncers still full-attack, Partial charging other things get a single attack... It's honestly not even as strong as Ego Whip.

Ego Whip can one-shot a 10th- to 20th-level character due to the augmentation rules. Saying that it's "less strong than Ego Whip" an even less compelling argument.

I'm talking from experience here. Our party in our FR campaign used to use Ray of Dizziness frequently and we found that hitting any solo melee monster with it was basically an automatic win. All of a sudden the monster gets one melee attack, at most. If you don't believe me, try running a few sample combats. Unless the monster has some kind of really REALLY powerful standard-action attack, it's almost helpless.

Doesn't Bestow Curse do pretty much the same thing in making the victim take an action 50% of the time? It may seem broken, but with two spells doing the same thing I think WoTC meant for it to be in the rules.

Ray of Dizziness is ranged touch instead of touch, and no-save. The no-save is what pushes it over the line from good to overpowered, IMO.

- Saph

[Eldariel]

The best comparison is Slow. Slow does the same as Ray of Dizziness with Will-save instead of Ranged Touch, and applies additional -1 to everything and halves the creature's speed (to hammer home that the thing is SCREWED). Oh, and it targets 1 creature/level within 30' and isn't mind-affecting.

I think it's pretty fair next to Slow. You get a no-save good thing, but you still need to deal with 3 possible defenses (although Mind-Affecting becomes a major problem only much later) and it's limited to 1 target. It's really good at what it does though; I'd personally make it a 2nd level spell with Will Negates, or give it Will Partial (for example small penalties instead of loss of action on a successful save).

But level 3 "yes, you're screwed" no save-spells are really annoying, especially with True Strike available making single opponents rather useless unless they have the ability to remedy the problem themselves. Ray of Exhaustion too.

[HamsterOfTheGod]

Doesn't Bestow Curse do pretty much the same thing in making the victim take an action 50% of the time? It may seem broken, but with two spells doing the same thing I think WoTC meant for it to be in the rules.

Bestow curse is higher level, it's touch spell not a ranged touch and it allows a Will save.

Edit: Ninja'ed

[Myrmex]

This is hardly a compelling argument

Honestly, I don't think its all that powerful of a spell. Partial Charging Pouncers still full-attack, Partial charging other things get a single attack... It's honestly not even as strong as Ego Whip.

Ego whip will only work on really low charisma opponents- otherwise you have to spam it or augment it, so it's not really a a single 3rd level spell disabling an enemy with a single action.

There are also all sorts of things that prevent charges. Charging is really only a viable tactic in the sort of "featureless plain" landscape that CharOp seems to inhabit.

If it's a premade module with many single encounter creatures, or encounters with one tough creature and a bunch of cleavable minions, then Ray of Dizziness will be totally overpowered, since it turns most opponents into a single attack/round (or spell). Without being able to retreat or advance AND take offensive/defensive actions, the PCs have won the action economy, more so than they would in an encounter of 4 v 1.

I would recommend to the DM to start adding powerful "pet" type creatures to encounters, or duplicating the single high CR monster. So that blackguard would have a fiendish tiger along with him, the barbarian would be accompanied by a velociraptor (though you should probably leave the Ur-Priest levels off), instead of fighting one black dragon, you fight two (one an age category younger). Instead of 2 elite guards, you fight 4, though the second two the DM could give two negative levels (-2 hit, -2 skills & checks, -2 saves, -10 HP).

[Talic]

Ray of Exhaustion does allow a save. But it still fatigues, even if you save. That kills chargers.

[Irreverent Fool]

Any single monster is going to be doomed against a party of even moderately experienced D&D players. I don't know this spell off the top of my hand and a quick search says it's from a Dragon magazine (and we all know how balanced those are). If the spell has a duration, I can't think of any fix except for the OP (and the DM) sitting down and talking rationally with the player about the trouble this spell is causing and possibly limiting how much he uses it or give him the option to choose a different spell.

If the spell must be repeated each round, a strong clever opponent may initiate a grapple against a nearby foe, forcing the beguiler to risk a chance of hitting one of his own allies with the spell. Cover works fairly well against ranged attacks, as does throwing things at the beguiler.

If the spell offered a save, it would simply be an inferior version of slow, so I'm not sure that's the solution (bumping it up to a level 4 spell seems more reasonable to me).
Bolded just so my main point isn't lost in the wall-o-text.

Honestly though, OP, if your DM is running a module and doesn't want to tailor it, he probably should limit player access to options a little too. The only solution at this point is reasoning with the player, I think. With great power comes great responsibility. It is the job of the Batman Wizard (or in this case the beguiler) to use his powers to help his fellow players without stealing the spotlight.

To answer the OP's question more directly:

I've got this problem in the game I'm DM'ing at the moment. I foolishly allowed a player to be a half-ogre and asked him to forgo the usual 'melee power attack' combo. So he went with improved trip and a spiked chain.

Crowds of enemies who realize the threat can keep the encounters challenging. So can the little-used 'aid another' option en masse.

I agree with Myrmex's assessment. If the DM is going to allow all the options (such as this ray) to players, he should be ready to do some on-the-fly modifications to the module.

obnoxious
sig

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Use Illusions of monsters such as a Gray Render or Troll or Chimera, anything big with a dangerous full attack. He'll immediately target the illusion with it first, thus wasting the spell. He probably just barely gets enough spells/day to cast it once per encounter, so that will likely take up enough uses to make him either not use it a few encounters to save it for a bigger fight, or not have any left for the big fights. Maybe even put the illusions by themselves without an additional encounter, so he just wastes the spell and they move on. Maybe in the bigger encounters give the opponents access to Haste, and rule that they cancel each other out. If he casts Ray of Dizziness, one of them casts Haste and everyone he didn't target is buffed, but they won't cast haste unless he casts that so they're better off if he doesn't. It's a bit underhanded, so I'd only use it as a last resort.

[Myrmex]

It is the job of the Batman Wizard (or in this case the beguiler) to use his powers to help his fellow players without stealing the spotlight.

I would say this is a classic case of Batman's battlefield control abilities. Using Ray of Dizziness to confound an opponent for 6 rounds won't do your squishy hide any good if you don't have friends with pointy sticks or sharp claws.

[edit]
To be honest, I've noticed that it's often times DMs that notice when a player is overpowered, and not necessarily the other players. I've been accused of "not doing anything" with Batman type characters by other players, despite the DM taking me aside and saying "hey, could you ease up on crippling my encounters? some of these baddies are supposed to escape." Many times, other players won't necessarily recognize the fact that you are winning battles with Slow, Solid Fog, Haste, Web, Glitterdust, Waves of Exhaustion, Black Tentacles, and other great spells, because they will too busy murdering the life out everything. Rogues, for instance, love blind or grappled foes, since they get to role fistfuls of TWF SA dice. Fighters like it when they can stand toe-to-toe with a high BAB , heavy hitting brute, like a giant, and not risk getting hit by the -10 iteratives, thanks to the Slow you put on it. Many people choose to play a class role because they enjoy hitting something with a big sword, or singing bard songs to give everyone +2, or controlling the battlefield.

[Irreverent Fool]

I would say this is a classic case of Batman's battlefield control abilities. Using Ray of Dizziness to confound an opponent for 6 rounds won't do your squishy hide any good if you don't have friends with pointy sticks or sharp claws.

This one seems to be stealing the spotlight though. He should mix up his spells a little.

The original version of Ray of Dizziness was a 2nd-level spell which was close range and allowed a will save to resist it on top of being a touch attack. (It also gave -2 to AC, melee attack rolls, melee damage rolls, and Reflex saves, but we'll forget all that as 3.0 nonsense.) Dust off a copy of Dragon Annual #5 and make him use that version instead. He may enjoy having it in a 2nd-level slot and the DM may enjoy his minions having a chance to resist it at a 2nd-level DC.

obnoxious
sig

[Twilight Jack]

I've encountered some success as a DM in proposing a houserule "trade" to players using spells or abilities that seem to break the game. Basically, I'll ask them to agree to a nerfing of the ability in one aspect in exchange for a buffing of it in another.

In the case of Ray of Dizziness, perhaps a character could overcome the dizziness in any given round by making a Concentration or Balance check (which ever is higher) at a DC equal to the normal save DC of the spell + 5. In exchange, the spell's duration will be extended to 1 minute/level.

Success on the skill check allows the target to act normally for that round, but doesn't end the spell's effect.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

In the case of Ray of Dizziness, perhaps a character could overcome the dizziness in any given round by making a Concentration or Balance check (which ever is higher) at a DC equal to the normal save DC of the spell + 5. In exchange, the spell's duration will be extended to 1 minute/level.

Skill checks scale much faster than saves, though, so if you were to implement this against a Cha 16 level 6 beguiler, his save DC of 16 would be almost useless against even-level enemies' checks of 1d20 + 9 + Con or Dex. They'd only need a 4 or higher with an ability score of 16, which is average for classed NPCs and low for monsters, or a 1 or higher if they have Skill Focus--and since it's Balance or Concentration, any spellcasters or roguish types would have those maxed with high key abilities, so you'd only screw martial types.

Instead, I'd do it like hold person--make a Will save against the normal 3rd-level DC every round rather than a skill check. It would still have a longer duration and keep going on a successful save, just not be so easy to ignore.

[ZeroNumerous]

Ray of Dizziness is much more powerful than any of those, trust me.

That's actually just plain wrong. Ray of Exhaustion allows a save, but cast the spell again and that save becomes irrelevant. Cast Ray of Enfeeblement before for STR 0 on anything that isn't a Dragon or a Barbarian. Displacement doesn't just tell one enemy to start sucking. It makes all the enemies who target you suck. Sleet Storm removes your move action as well as negates your ability to fire outside of it. Fly, as mentioned, auto-defeats non-flying non-ranged encounters. Wind Wall plus Fly tells all enemies to just suck.

Ray of Dizziness is a problem for martial characters past level 5 and/or Claw/Claw/Bite'rs. Everyone else doesn't care about it.

[Saph]

That's actually just plain wrong. Ray of Exhaustion allows a save, but cast the spell again and that save becomes irrelevant.

And as I said, what I'm saying about Ray of Dizziness is from actual play experience. Unlike the Ray of Exhaustion combo you just described, it only takes one casting. There's a big difference between one casting and two castings. Most of the rest of the stuff you're listing here is theoretical - it sounds good until you try it out in play. You're going to cast Fly and Wind Wall? That's nice. During the two rounds it takes for you to do that, I'm going to be killing your teammates. As for 'only melee characters care' - do you seriously believe that move actions don't matter for anyone except meleers?

Interestingly, I happen to be DMing a game at the moment where the party are using Fly and Wind Wall and Ray of Exhaustion. Oh, and Blink, which is better than Displacement for miss-chance purposes. Oh, and Waves of Fatigue as well, plus a few more I can't think of off the top of my head. The enemies are archers.

So far one PC's dead, one's paralysed, one is on 3 HP and has three saving throws due, and the fourth is on half HP or so. They'll probably scrape a win, but if they'd had Ray of Dizziness it would have been a lot easier. You're welcome to read the thread, if you're interested.

- Saph

[HamsterOfTheGod]

If the spell offered a save, it would simply be an inferior version of slow, so I'm not sure that's the solution (bumping it up to a level 4 spell seems more reasonable to me).
Bolded just so my main point isn't lost in the wall-o-text.

OK how about the following fixes if (1) the DM can't find a way to adjust encounters or (2) the player does not want to retcon the spell selection.

First, give it a will save and make it level 2:

Revised "Ray" of Dizziness Version 1
Enchantment (Compulsion) [Mind-Affecting]
Level: Brd2, Sor/Wiz 2
Components: V, S, F
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Medium (25 ft. + 5 ft./level)
Target: Ray
Duration: 1 rd./level
Saving Throw: Will
Spell Resistance: Yes


You must succeed on a ranged touch attack with the ray to strike a target. The subject is allowed a Will saving throw. If the subject fails the saving throw, the subject is staggered for 1 round round per caster level.

Focus: A small top.

...or this. Make it a 3rd level spell that's sort of like a combination of two 2nd level spells (daze monster and the level 2 ray of dizziness above).

Revised "Ray" of Dizziness Version 2
Enchantment (Compulsion) [Mind-Affecting]
Level: Brd3, Sor/Wiz 3
Components: V, S, F
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Medium (25 ft. + 5 ft./level)
Target: Ray
Duration: 1 rd. + 1 rd./level
Saving Throw: Will
Spell Resistance: Yes


You must succeed on a ranged touch attack with the ray to strike a target. The subject is allowed a Will saving throw. If the subject fails the saving throw, the subject is dazed for 1 round. In addition, after the first round, for 1 round per caster level, the subject is staggered.

Focus: A small top.

[ZeroNumerous]

And as I said, what I'm saying about Ray of Dizziness is from actual play experience.

I've used Ray of Dizziness in play. It's not nearly as powerful as you describe. There are at least 3 other 3rd level spells more effective in just Core. Expanding from Core we get Mass Snake's Swiftness, Girallon's Blessing, Bands of Steel, Icelance, Nauseating Breath, Flashburst(if you're a gish) or even Reverse Arrows if you see alot of mundane projectiles thrown around.

There's a big difference between one casting and two castings.

...

do you seriously believe that move actions don't matter for anyone except meleers?

Not enough that I've seen. Then again, I use Imbue Familiar With Spell and Quicken so two spells a round is a rather common occurence. Either way, it's "we kill the bad guy" when used on a single monster against the party. But it was given that the single monster was gonna die anyway.

Further, you should note that I said "martial" characters and claw/claw/bite monsters. This includes melee characters, scouts, throwers, rogues, etc. Any martial character doesn't like it. Claw/claw/bite monsters don't like it on the same premise.

Most of the rest of the stuff you're listing here is theoretical - it sounds good until you try it out in play.

1) It's only theoretical if you've never seen it applied in game. Fly has turned near TPKs into near effortless wins in several games I've been in. I've seen a party end an encounter with a single Sleet Storm. Slow, Stinking Cloud and Summon Monster III(Huge Monstrous Centipede) have been staple battle-turners in my games. But it's entirely possible that my experiences with Ray of Dizziness differ because I don't put monsters requiring full-attacks to be effective against a party with access to spells like Ray of Dizziness.

2) Your players sound like they've made poor tactical choices. Rather than bothering with Fly + Wind Wall and then try to have the entire party play a part, they should have simply cast Slow or use Stinking Cloud instead. The Fly + Wind Wall combo is for a single character to win the encounter rather than trying to let everyone have a chance to play.

3) Blink turns you ethereal. This isn't as fun as it sounds, and is easily stopped by Dimensional Anchor. Displacement also allows you to hide in plain sight if you put it on the rogue without that nasty "I attacked but turned ethereal before it hit" problem.

[Saph]

It's only theoretical if you've never seen it applied in game. Fly has turned near TPKs into near effortless wins in several games I've been in. I've seen a party end an encounter with a single Sleet Storm. Slow, Stinking Cloud and Summon Monster III(Huge Monstrous Centipede) have been staple battle-turners in my games. But it's entirely possible that my experiences with Ray of Dizziness differ because I don't put monsters requiring full-attacks to be effective against a party with access to spells like Ray of Dizziness.

Like I said, I've seen them applied in game, and I've not had much trouble finding counters. Battlefield control spells can often be turned in your favour if you know what you're doing. For instance, if the party used Sleet Storm in the battle I'm currently running, the opponents would move of it in one round max (probably with a single move action) and then start using to block enemy attacks. It wouldn't do more than annoy them. Ray of Dizziness, on the other hand, would - because Ray of Dizziness can't be countered by moving. It denies the opponent actions, and action advantage in D&D is probably the most powerful advantage you can get.

Further, you should note that I said "martial" characters and claw/claw/bite monsters. This includes melee characters, scouts, throwers, rogues, etc. Any martial character doesn't like it. Claw/claw/bite monsters don't like it on the same premise.

Expand that to "characters" and you've got it. Not being able to maneuver properly in combat is a huge disadvantage, regardless of whether you're martial or not.

- Saph

[ZeroNumerous]

Ray of Dizziness, on the other hand, would - because Ray of Dizziness can't be countered by moving.

Link to Sleet Storm. I can only assume that you haven't read the spell description or read it wrong. 50% of the time, they fail to move. Less with a higher DEX, but it's rare to see a DEX higher than +2 and it's incredibly uncommon to find points in Balance.

Expand that to "characters" and you've got it. Not being able to maneuver properly in combat is a huge disadvantage, regardless of whether you're martial or not.

Except a focused caster doesn't care about moving unless it's necessary due to terrain constraints. Otherwise, the only reason to move is to just move. They're not called "artillery" for nothing.

[Myrmex]

That's actually just plain wrong. Ray of Exhaustion allows a save, but cast the spell again and that save becomes irrelevant. Cast Ray of Enfeeblement before for STR 0 on anything that isn't a Dragon or a Barbarian. Displacement doesn't just tell one enemy to start sucking. It makes all the enemies who target you suck. Sleet Storm removes your move action as well as negates your ability to fire outside of it. Fly, as mentioned, auto-defeats non-flying non-ranged encounters. Wind Wall plus Fly tells all enemies to just suck.

But that takes two actions and uses two spells. At level 6, it's unlikely you're going to be getting more than one standard action/round.

Ray of Dizziness is a problem for martial characters past level 5 and/or Claw/Claw/Bite'rs. Everyone else doesn't care about it.

Only if your DM only runs environments where charging is never hindered by blood-slicked floors, tables, caltrops, undergrowth, ruined flagstones, slimy dungeons, knee deep water, or any other sort of terrain.

[Saph]

Link to Sleet Storm. I can only assume that you haven't read the spell description or read it wrong. 50% of the time, they fail to move. Less with a higher DEX, but it's rare to see a DEX higher than +2 and it's incredibly uncommon to find points in Balance.

Your assumptions are wrong. I said that it would do nothing but annoy the current opponents, and I meant it.

Except a focused caster doesn't care about moving unless it's necessary due to terrain constraints. Otherwise, the only reason to move is to just move. They're not called "artillery" for nothing.

I've just recently finished up two duels in Tidesinger's Test of Spite. Both opponents I fought were full casters. In both cases, if they hadn't used move actions and had just stood around in the same square, I would have killed them in half the time I did. Move actions matter.

- Saph

[Frosty]

Like I said, I've seen them applied in game, and I've not had much trouble finding counters. Battlefield control spells can often be turned in your favour if you know what you're doing. For instance, if the party used Sleet Storm in the battle I'm currently running, the opponents would move of it in one round max (probably with a single move action) and then start using to block enemy attacks. It wouldn't do more than annoy them. Ray of Dizziness, on the other hand, would - because Ray of Dizziness can't be countered by moving. It denies the opponent actions, and action advantage in D&D is probably the most powerful advantage you can get.



Expand that to "characters" and you've got it. Not being able to maneuver properly in combat is a huge disadvantage, regardless of whether you're martial or not.

- Saph

Especially if your opponents have Mageslayer.