Thread: Jump Question (you can't touch me if you can't reach me)

1. Jump Question (you can't touch me if you can't reach me)

PH p.77
A Jump check is included in your movement, so it
is part of a move action. If you run out of movement mid-jump, your
next action (either on this turn or, if necessary, on your next turn)
must be a move action to complete the jump.
Suppose you are a damn good jumper, and you are attempting a vertical jump that exceeds your movement for this round. So, you are left in mid-air position until the next round (then you complete your jump).
If your jump check is really good* and you are more than 5ft up in the air, you are practically out of reach… right? So, no-one can harm you with a melee attack until your next turn! (except with reach weapons or ranged attacks)

Am I right?

*For a standing high jump of 6ft you must beat a 48 DC jump check.

2. Re: Jump Question (you can't touch me if you can't reach me)

No, they can reach any square adjacent to them, including the ones above, and they can always jump to reach you. You would need to be pretty high up, like at least 15ft.

But ultimately yes, it is possible to jump yourself out of your enemies reach until your next round.

3. Re: Jump Question (you can't touch me if you can't reach me)

I would make it 10 ft. high and only against medium characters, but yes.

4. Re: Jump Question (you can't touch me if you can't reach me)

In the jump section of the PHB it says that vertical reach of a medium creature is 8' high. The DC to jump more than 8' presumably higher than 64. That's basically an epic use of the Jump skill. And the opponent trying to hit them can just do a little hop to get themselves up there to hit the jumper. I'm not too worried about that happening...

5. Re: Jump Question (you can't touch me if you can't reach me)

Good point there Anxe (reach 8ft).
Tell me something, the PH states that jump is included in your movement. With that in mind, you can't interrupt your movement to hit someone (exc. spring attack).
So, a "hop-up and hit" is out of the question, right? Can't jump (move), hit while in mid-air (interrupt movement and attack) and return to the ground. While is logically possible, I believe a feat or something is required to do this.

6. Re: Jump Question (you can't touch me if you can't reach me)

Eh, jumping is a super-easy skill to buff. Start with max ranks and a high strength (starting 18, but 20 is possibly), and a level in Barbarian for Fast Movement. After that, grab 18 levels of Monk or something that advances Monk speed increase (100 ft. speed equals +28 to Jump checks). Bump Str up at each opportunity, get a tome/manual/wish and +6 item, and you've got Str 34. With just that, you've got a modifier of +63.

Add +2 synergy (Tumble, a Monk skill), +2 from Acrobatic, +3 Skill Focus, +4 from Run, and that's +74. And a +5 ring of jumping. Oh, and with Leap of the Heavens, that's from standing (i.e., no need to run 20 feet first.) A level of Exemplar will get you the ability to Take 10 on Jump checks. That's an automatic 89, which is a 22-foot jump straight up from standing. If you've got an ally or take Leadership, you can get a Sorcerer/Marshal that adds his Cha to your Jump checks AND can cast jump on you for another +10 bonus.

And that's just off the top of my head.

7. Re: Jump Question (you can't touch me if you can't reach me)

Good point there Anxe (reach 8ft).
Tell me something, the PH states that jump is included in your movement. With that in mind, you can't interrupt your movement to hit someone (exc. spring attack).
So, a "hop-up and hit" is out of the question, right? Can't jump (move), hit while in mid-air (interrupt movement and attack) and return to the ground. While is logically possible, I believe a feat or something is required to do this.
Well, if you can jump at least 10 feet, then you can charge upwards. I think.

8. Re: Jump Question (you can't touch me if you can't reach me)

You're looking for Up The Walls: Find a convenient vertical surface and Tumble up it, reducing your speed to half. Make a 'Horizontal' jump, which sends you perpendicular to the wall, and then you can spend the rest of the round hovering. Piece of cake.

9. Re: Jump Question (you can't touch me if you can't reach me)

Originally Posted by Riffington
Well, if you can jump at least 10 feet, then you can charge upwards. I think.
PH p.154
Charging is a special full-round action that allows you to move up to twice your speed and attack during the action.
Jump is included in your movement. So a "part of move action" can't be used with a "full round action".

10. Re: Jump Question (you can't touch me if you can't reach me)

Originally Posted by rtg0922
Eh, jumping is a super-easy skill to buff. Start with max ranks and a high strength (starting 18, but 20 is possibly), and a level in Barbarian for Fast Movement.
Or, get Boots of Agile Leaping. Or even better, enchant your Boots of Speed with the benefits of the Boots of Agile Leaping. That way, you can use Dexterity instead. Then again, Strength is still good.

After that, grab 18 levels of Monk or something that advances Monk speed increase (100 ft. speed equals +28 to Jump checks).
Um, just that? I'd say add some Xeph goodness for the bursts of speed. 3 rounds with a competence bonus of 30 ft. to speed, which means an extra +12 to the Jump check?

And a +5 ring of jumping.
Why a +5? Get the +10 one. Or Belkar's +20 Ring. See it soar.

Also, if you can somehow get ahold of the Hustle power, get it. Basically, replace your swift action with a move action. Useful for the next two rounds of speed.

Or, in any case, do the Chuck E. Cheeze build (however updated or fixed it may be), and max that Jump check. Touch the sky. Fall and get (max height/10, rounded down) d6 damage unless you have another Ring (this time, of Feather Fall)

11. Re: Jump Question (you can't touch me if you can't reach me)

I once saw a feat somewhere that added DEX to Jump instead of STR.
But yeah Jump is perhaps the easiest skill to buff.

You could in theory hover in mid air for a single round.
If you had the ability to jump from standing (from the feat) then you can do it each round if I'm not mistaken (which I could be), as the land is automatic and then you may jump again as the move action.

Q: Could you throw a knife as a standard action.. or cast a spell as a standard action (with a concentration check) while hovering in the air??

12. Re: Jump Question (you can't touch me if you can't reach me)

PH p.77

Suppose you are a damn good jumper, and you are attempting a vertical jump that exceeds your movement for this round. So, you are left in mid-air position until the next round (then you complete your jump).
If your jump check is really good* and you are more than 5ft up in the air, you are practically out of reach… right? So, no-one can harm you with a melee attack until your next turn! (except with reach weapons or ranged attacks)

Am I right?

*For a standing high jump of 6ft you must beat a 48 DC jump check.
And this is one of those places where a reasonable DM looks you in the eye and tells you to keep dreaming. Juke your Jump check high enough to make me believe in 6 seconds of hang time and we'll talk. Otherwise, we're going to mutually recognize that many rules in D&D are abstractions that are not necessarily conducive to verisimilitude in an ongoing collaborative storytelling experience.

If your game is one where the RAW are inviolate and replace basic layman's physics rather than attempting to simulate them, then knock yourself out with the power to mystically hover because you "ran out of movement" for the particular 6 second window of time in which you find yourself. Otherwise, leave first-aid-by-drowning and commoner-rail-guns in the realm on the theoretically absurd, where they belong.

13. Re: Jump Question (you can't touch me if you can't reach me)

Originally Posted by Gaiyamato
I once saw a feat somewhere that added DEX to Jump instead of STR.
But yeah Jump is perhaps the easiest skill to buff.

You could in theory hover in mid air for a single round.
If you had the ability to jump from standing (from the feat) then you can do it each round if I'm not mistaken (which I could be), as the land is automatic and then you may jump again as the move action.

Q: Could you throw a knife as a standard action.. or cast a spell as a standard action (with a concentration check) while hovering in the air??
A: No. If we're going to accept that you've "run out of movement," and are now hovering, it has to be because you've really run out of movement. If you've still got a standard action left to throw a knife, then you haven't really "run out," have you? You've still got a standard action left, which it would seem that you are now obliged to use to complete your movement into a space in which you can reasonably stop.

By way of illustration, a character with a 30' speed manages to leap 30' vertically into the air (don't ask how ). He's now got 30' of vertical movement needed to get him back down to the ground. Since he has not ended his movement in a legal space, he is obliged to use any remaining actions to make up the difference. It just so happens that his remaining standard action will net him 30' of movement in the form of a double-move. He is obliged to use it, in my opinion, since he cannot choose to float in mid-air without any means of support.

Let me ask a different question, though.

If a character uses the entirety of his movement to run off the edge of a cliff, does he hang in mid-air until his next round because he doesn't have enough "movement" to fall the 200' to his death on the rocks below?

14. Re: Jump Question (you can't touch me if you can't reach me)

Originally Posted by Twilight Jack
And this is one of those places where a reasonable DM looks you in the eye and tells you to keep dreaming.
That's exactly what I’ve said to my son!!! – But, then I pictured…those manga style – kungfu scenes with the hero making extreme leaps …and thought…”well… DnD is a fantasy game… it’ll be fun and cinematic…” so I decided to ask what you guys think of it.

I don’t like my players do this trick every round, and I have ways to discourage them using it…

(sorry, my english are not good, i'm a self-learner)

15. Re: Jump Question (you can't touch me if you can't reach me)

That's exactly what I’ve said to my son!!! – But, then I pictured…those manga style – kungfu scenes with the hero making extreme leaps …and thought…”well… DnD is a fantasy game… it’ll be fun and cinematic…” so I decided to ask what you guys think of it.

I don’t like my players do this trick every round, and I have ways to discourage them using it…

(sorry, my english are not good, i'm a self-learner)
Well, if you're playing a Wuxia (Chinese epic mythical cinema) inspired game, then all the above considerations go right out the window. Six second hangtimes are par for the course if that's the overall flavor of the campaign world.

I'm basing my thoughts on the generic assumptions of the western swords & sorcery genre.

16. Re: Jump Question (you can't touch me if you can't reach me)

I say allow this abuse of the jump rules, regardless of how physically possible they are. Then if anyone pulls it on you just say the words "I'm delaying my action. When he lands, I'll make a full attack against him".

Watch as your player/DM's dreams of an un-hittable character come crashing down around him, along with his springy freak.

17. Re: Jump Question (you can't touch me if you can't reach me)

That's a wonderfully inventive way of getting yourself impaled by your enemies.

5' adjustment. Set spear against the ground. Take careful aim for groin region. Ready action to impale. Wait for automatic win.

Hell - as DM, I'd consider that a coup-de-grace.

18. Re: Jump Question (you can't touch me if you can't reach me)

Originally Posted by cheezewizz2000
I say allow this abuse of the jump rules, regardless of how physically possible they are. Then if anyone pulls it on you just say the words "I'm delaying my action. When he lands, I'll make a full attack against him".

Watch as your player/DM's dreams of an un-hittable character come crashing down around him, along with his springy freak.
Hohoho!!! Extra ish !!! Respect cheezewizz!

OMG! Acromos Super-Extra ish !!! - But I can't do this... my son is only 12... and that is mature content...

19. Re: Jump Question (you can't touch me if you can't reach me)

Footsteps of the Divine, from Complete Champion, gives you a small boost to speed for rounds/caster level. If you discharge the spell prematurely, you get a boost to speed for one round equal to the number of rounds left of duration times 10. So if you had 3 rounds left, you get a 30 foot burst of speed for a round.

If you happened to persist the spell....

Originally Posted by Twilight Jack
If a character uses the entirety of his movement to run off the edge of a cliff, does he hang in mid-air until his next round because he doesn't have enough "movement" to fall the 200' to his death on the rocks below?
No. I think there is a max distance you fall each round.

Originally Posted by cheezewizz2000
I say allow this abuse of the jump rules, regardless of how physically possible they are. Then if anyone pulls it on you just say the words "I'm delaying my action. When he lands, I'll make a full attack against him".

Watch as your player/DM's dreams of an un-hittable character come crashing down around him, along with his springy freak.
You can't delay a full round action.

20. Re: Jump Question (you can't touch me if you can't reach me)

Originally Posted by Myrmex

No. I think there is a max distance you fall each round.
Exactly. So if you end your "movement" from a vertical jump with only the falling part left to put you back on solid ground?

21. Re: Jump Question (you can't touch me if you can't reach me)

Originally Posted by Myrmex

You can't delay a full round action.
I don't think that's right. You can't ready a full-round action, but you can certainly delay your place in the initiative order. The difference being, of course, that delaying means you have to let the jumping character get his attack in before you retaliate, since a delayed set of actions cannot be used to interrupt.

22. Re: Jump Question (you can't touch me if you can't reach me)

Originally Posted by Twilight Jack
I don't think that's right. You can't ready a full-round action, but you can certainly delay your place in the initiative order. The difference being, of course, that delaying means you have to let the jumping character get his attack in before you retaliate, since a delayed set of actions cannot be used to interrupt.
Ah.
You are absolutely correct.

Originally Posted by Twilight Jack
Exactly. So if you end your "movement" from a vertical jump with only the falling part left to put you back on solid ground?
I imagine you might get hurt.

23. Re: Jump Question (you can't touch me if you can't reach me)

Originally Posted by Twilight Jack
Exactly. So if you end your "movement" from a vertical jump with only the falling part left to put you back on solid ground?
I don't think falling counts as "movement distance"...

If you end your jump distance with only the falling part remaining, then you simply fall and return to the ground.

24. Re: Jump Question (you can't touch me if you can't reach me)

Originally Posted by Myrmex
I imagine you might get hurt.
Not so terribly much, since falling damage is lessened if you've purposefully jumped (to be a rules-lawyer, it specifically states that falling damage is lessened when you're purposefully jumping down, but I'd rule that any character able to make a vertical leap high enough to risk falling damage upon landing is probably going to qualify for the reduction, since he's got the training to get that much air in the first place).

25. Re: Jump Question (you can't touch me if you can't reach me)

I don't think falling counts as "movement distance"...

If you end your jump distance with only the falling part remaining, then you simply fall and return to the ground.
A ruling from which - if combined with my earlier assertion that you cannot choose to use any remaining actions for anything other than completing movement if your move action leaves you in a place you cannot reasonably spend the round - it follows that you'd need to be able to vertically leap to a height in excess of your doubled movement (minus any running start) in order for the one-round hangtime problem to ever present itself.

In other words, you'd have to run out of movement while still ascending if you wanted to remain airborne until next round. Once you reach the apex of your jump, falling rules take over and you're no longer using your own "movement" to get back to earth.

26. Re: Jump Question (you can't touch me if you can't reach me)

Originally Posted by Twilight Jack
A ruling from which - if combined with my earlier assertion that you cannot choose to use any remaining actions for anything other than completing movement if your move action leaves you in a place you cannot reasonably spend the round - it follows that you'd need to be able to vertically leap to a height in excess of your doubled movement (minus any running start) in order for the one-round hangtime problem to ever present itself.

In other words, you'd have to run out of movement while still ascending if you wanted to remain airborne until next round. Once you reach the apex of your jump, falling rules take over and you're no longer using your own "movement" to get back to earth.
Correct. So, what about: Standard action (attack) then move action (move some ft (tumble if you must) and then vertical jump)? There's no available "double move" option to end your jump so you wait until next turn (if jump isn't complete).

27. Re: Jump Question (you can't touch me if you can't reach me)

Jumping is a part of movement. That means jumping that high would provoke an AoO.

28. Re: Jump Question (you can't touch me if you can't reach me)

Originally Posted by Talic
Jumping is a part of movement. That means jumping that high would provoke an AoO.
Yes. This. Unless, of course, you could make a DC 25 Tumble check as part of your leap (which most any character who was planning to pull this kind of Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon stuff would be able to do). Then you could make that leap without worrying about much of anything (see my other thread on the Trouble with T[r]umble).

29. Re: Jump Question (you can't touch me if you can't reach me)

Huh.. Why people say that you hover 6 seconds above ground if you jump and don't have more movement, waiting for your next turn?

To me it sounds like when you think of battle, everyone is standing still while one person does his move.. Really??
Everything still goes on while you have your turn, the rules just try to make it simple to play out. So jumping a really big distance then you can move in your turn just means that your jump is so long that others get to act while you are mid-air..

No hovering around here! except if you can hover, sure..

30. Re: Jump Question (you can't touch me if you can't reach me)

Originally Posted by Twilight Jack
he is obliged to use any remaining actions to make up the difference
To be exact, you are not *obliged* to do it, you are required to.
If you run out of movement mid-jump, your next action (either on this turn or, if necessary, on your next turn) must be a move action to complete the jump.

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