Advice on my Gish (3.5)

[only1doug]

I'm starting my own thread to avoid de-railing the other gish thread.

My Gish Just dinged 14, I have 2 new spells to pick and need to consider how to appease My GM.

My GM is concerned that my character is overpowered (I know He's not, but I don't want to prove it by powering up too much).

The Character:

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Alvin Silvermaul:
ECL14
Silverbrow Human
Duskblade 5
Wizard (abjurer) 1
Abjurant Champion 5 (wizard L6)
Spellsword 1 (wizard L7)
Eldritch Knight 2 (wizard L8)

BAB 13 CL13 (spells as L8 abjurer wizard)

Stats

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Str: 12 (+4) =16
Dex: 14
Con: 14
Int: 19 (+4) =23
Wis: 10
Cha: 8
AC=32
10 + 7 (dragonscale Husk) + 9 (shield spell) + 2 (dex) + 0 (Size) + 2 (natural) + 2 (deflection)
Wound Points 30
Vitality Points 90
Fort = +11
Ref = + 4
Will = + 12

Feats and abilities

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Toughness (house rule: prerequisite of Imp T)
Improved Toughness (house rule: Wounds and Vitality Points)
Combat casting (duskblade freebee feat)
Scribe scroll (wizard freebee feat)
Clap of Thunder (reserve Feat)
Fiery Burst (reserve Feat)
Sunlight Eyes (reserve Feat)
Eschew Materials

Arcane Boost (Duskblade ability)
Swift Abjuration (Duskblade ability)
Extended Abjuration (Duskblade ability)
Abjurant Armour (Duskblade ability)
Quick Casting (1/day Duskblade ability)
Arcane Channelling (Duskblade ability)
Arcane Attunement (Duskblade ability)
Ignore Spell Failure (spellsword)
Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Maul
Parrying Shield (Shield bonus to Touch AC)

Feather Fall 3/day (spell like ability)
Dragonscale Husk (AC7, Energy resistance 5 fire, cold, sonic, electricity, Acid)

Equipment

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Ring of Prot +2
Headband of Intellect +4
Amulet of Emergency Healing & Natural Armour +2
Belt of giant Str +4
Cloak of Weaponry
Boccobs Blessed Book
Hewards Fortifying Bedroll
+3 Adamantine Maul (1d10 damage) (greater mighty Wallop (4d8 damage))

Wizard Spells

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58 Spellpoints
L1: Shield, Prot: Evil, Disguise Self, Ectoplasmic armour, Repair Light damage, Hold portal, Karmic Aura, Bigbys Tripping hand, Magic Missile, Identify, Enlarge Person
L2: Prot: Arrows, Resist energy, Blur, Mirror Image, Invisibility, See Invis, Heart of Air, Burning Sword, Rainbow Beam, Repair Moderate damage, Glitterdust.
L3: Reverse Arrows, Dispel Magic, Wreath of Flames, Ghost Lantern, Greater Mighty Wallop, Heart of Water, weapon of energy, Rainbow Blast, Spell Vulnerability, Repair serious damage, Shrink item.
L4: Ray Deflection, Energy spheres, Repair Critical Damage.

Play a core only Druid that Wildshapes into a dinosaur, takes Natural Spell, casts buffs, and uses Summon Nature's Ally X liberally for battlefield control.

Then play a core only Cleric with the Travel and Strength (Saint Christopher, Scott Bakula) or Travel and Trickery domains (Hermes, Mercury, Dalt, Mouqol, Sehanine Moonbow). Buff yourself with 2-3 spells before each combat, and own the battlefield. If surprised, cast Invisibility or Mislead and then Summon (not an attack). At high levels, use Polymorph any Object and Time Stop liberally.

Then point out to your DM that a build with 17ish BAB and 7thish level Wizard spells by ECL 20 isn't that powerful after all.

I don't want to prove him wrong, by showing how powerful a build I could make.
My build has 19 BAB and CL, & 7th Level spells at L20

4d8 + 7? Really? That's what he's antsy about? That's, what, 75 damage? If all 3 attacks hit? Isn't it ridiculously easy to get 75 damage in a single attack?

I'm sure I could get more damage, I'm trying not to overdo it. Power attack would vastly increase my damage output.

That's very low damage unless you're under level 10 or so.

L13 (just hit L14 on sunday, informed by text since)

You mean in the range that most people do and should play?

We started at L1 and the GM plans the Campaign to go epic.


My Plan for my 2 new spells is Heart of Earth and another (probably 4th level spell) I was considering Evards black tentacles but I'm open to other suggestions

[Eldariel]

Eh, it seems like your DM just needs to come to grips with the fact that character power begins to increase vastly as the levels increase; a level 13 character isn't just a bit stronger than a level 12, there's a huge power gap there.

If he's DMed the game from level 1 and is relatively new, he's likely to be surprised and frightened by the fact that as iteratives, high level combat feats and higher level spells kick in, the "100 damage just isn't a barrier" becomes reality. That's just how those pre-epic levels work out though; attacks hit a lot and deal a lot of damage, and spells can single-handedly end encounters one way or another and casters can build sufficient defenses to be almost completely untouchable from melee attacks and melee types can take on armies alone.

There's a reason the CR system assumes you need 128 CR 1s to take on a level 15 party (of course, seeing that CR 1s are totally trivial to a level 15 party in normal circumstances, that's not even a realistic challenge outside a very specific scenario or dumb party); one level 15 isn't just 15 level 1s, he's a larger-than-life warrior/spellcaster and has the abilities to match.


Overall, this seems like a perception problem from your DM's PoV; a level 13 party just doesn't play the same game as a level 3 party anymore. Powering down isn't really gonna help the issue.


Anyways, you get 4th level spells? You don't yet have Solid Fog & Dimension Door so I'd look to picking those two; long-welcome mobility, and a spell that never loses its potency except against Freedom of Movemented opponents.

[only1doug]

Ahh, another house rule i forgot to mention: No teleportations (except via fixed portal stones which take months-years to make)

Solid fog is tempting, similar in scale to evards.

I also forgot to mention Forbidden schools: Enchantment and Necromancy.

The GM is fairly experienced (he's been my GM for 15 years or so) but this is the first DnD game he's run.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

The GM is fairly experienced (he's been my GM for 15 years or so) but this is the first DnD game he's run.

That's the problem. In most games, power scales linearly. In D&D, melee's power scales multiplicitly(not a real word), while spellcasters scale exponentially. The huge disparity in what a level 1 character can do(Magic Missile for 1d4+1 4x/day) and what an 11th level character can do(15th CL Empowered Split Orb of Fire:Cold for 45d6 on an RTA 4x/day, as well as whatever you prep in your 5th, 4th, 3rd, second, and 1st level slots). It's a bit of an adjustment.

[lvl 1 fighter]

I wouldn't say your character is overpowered, but I would say that he is very strong. You've got pretty much the standard ultimate vanilla gish build, with class features that work strongly with each other and equipment and spells that benefit each other as well.

Nothing wrong with that, but it is a very tough and deadly character.

Now for some actually useful advice:

I'd pick up Ruin Delvers Fortune as your other 4th level spell. Even though you don't have a positive charisma bonus the single round of evasion, poison or fear immunity as an immediate action is a Good Thing(tm).

[Saph]

Definitely go for Heart of Earth for one of your spells.

Evard's Tentacles probably won't cut it at this level, as CR 14 enemies will mostly be able to beat the grapple or have some way of getting out of it. Solid Fog is likely better.

- Saph

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Has your DM spent much time in 3.5 as a player, or is he completely new to these rules? He sounds like someone I played with a while back, whose concept of game balance included calling a Lesser Rod of Maximize + Fireball from a level 10 character overpowered. I'd recommend pulling out all the stops and actually give him a reason to think your character is OP. Then when he insists on changing your character, rebuild him toward an all-out disabler/batman rather than a damage dealer.

I'd say take Greater Luminous Armor (BoED) and get a +13 Armor bonus from it thanks to Abjurant Champion. Polymorph is another good choice, take the form of a War Troll (MM3) for combat and be sure to get Power Attack next level. Why the Repair Damage line of spells, is there a Warforged in the party?

[Saph]

Has your DM spent much time in 3.5 as a player, or is he completely new to these rules? He sounds like someone I played with a while back, whose concept of game balance included calling a Lesser Rod of Maximize + Fireball from a level 10 character overpowered. I'd recommend pulling out all the stops and actually give him a reason to think your character is OP. Then when he insists on changing your character, rebuild him toward an all-out disabler/batman rather than a damage dealer.

I honestly can't understand how people can think this is good advice. The DM thinks your character is overpowered - hey, I know, let's try to make him really overpowered! That'll show him!

Seriously, what do you think the consequences are going to be of doing stuff like this? What do you think the DM is going to say? "Hey, you know how before, I thought your character was a bit too powerful? Well, now that you've completely broken the game and relegated every other PC to sidekicks, I've changed my mind! Now I think your character's great!"

- Saph

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

I honestly can't understand how people can think this is good advice. The DM thinks your character is overpowered - hey, I know, let's try to make him really overpowered! That'll show him!

Seriously, what do you think the consequences are going to be of doing stuff like this? What do you think the DM is going to say? "Hey, you know how before, I thought your character was a bit too powerful? Well, now that you've completely broken the game and relegated every other PC to sidekicks, I've changed my mind! Now I think your character's great!"

- Saph

It's more to prove the point that the character wasn't exactly overpowered before, by showing him just how much more powerful the character can be with only a few spells. When you agree to trade out those spells, he'll be much happier with the character just the way he was, rather than still thinking that he's overpowered.

[Saph]

It's more to prove the point that the character wasn't exactly overpowered before, by showing him just how much more powerful the character can be with only a few spells. When you agree to trade out those spells, he'll be much happier with the character just the way he was, rather than still thinking that he's overpowered.

That's terrible advice. "Proving a point" to a DM is almost always an incredibly bad idea. It teaches them a lesson, yes - but usually, the lesson they learn is "This player is a munchkin, I'm going to have to do something about him".

If the DM thinks your character is overpowered, the best response is usually to dial things back and let other players take centre stage for a while. The OP's got the right idea, IMO.

- Saph

[lvl 1 fighter]

It's more to prove the point that the character wasn't exactly overpowered before, by showing him just how much more powerful the character can be with only a few spells. When you agree to trade out those spells, he'll be much happier with the character just the way he was, rather than still thinking that he's overpowered.

That logic is not necessarily sound. I may think a 1 megaton nuke is overpowered. Following your reasoning, if you show me how much more powerful a 50 megtaon nuke is, I would be happier with the 1 megaton nuke and not think it's overpowered anymore. But it's still a nuke.

There's no hard and fast rule you can use for what people consider overpowered. For that DM mentioned above a Maximized spell without increasing the spell level was overpowered (metamagic rod). For another DM a character who Persistent Wraithstrike Power Attacks with a Greater Mighty Wallop weapon while in a Extraordinary Spell-Aimed Anti-Magic Field might be the norm. If the DM feels it's overpowered I would compare the character with the other members of the party to evaluate the average party level. Within the context of the group you can then have something to objectively judge whether a character may be overpowered or not.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

If the DM thinks your character is overpowered, the best response is usually to dial things back and let other players take centre stage for a while. The OP's got the right idea, IMO.

- Saph

Unless the OP isn't OP, whch is how it seems. In which case, dialing it back may leave him feeling useless. The DM shouldn't be the only one who gets to have fun.

[Saph]

Unless the OP isn't OP, whch is how it seems. In which case, dialing it back may leave him feeling useless. The DM shouldn't be the only one who gets to have fun.

Dialling it back doesn't mean being useless. It means letting other players get a chance to be important, too. In any case, pretty much the WORST response you can make is "okay, I'll make my character REALLY overpowered!"

- Saph

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

From what he's said before, the other party members include a Cleric and a Druid, and neither is even interested in contributing significantly or to the best of their ability. The rest of the party insists on using suboptimal tactics and his character is already forced to carry the team, thus his DM presumes he's overpowered.

Get Polymorph and Invisibility. Every fight, cast Invisibility and stay hidden doing nothing until the rest of the party is sure to lose. Then Polymorph into a War Troll and save everyone, then tell them to play better and repeat the same tactic on the next encounter.

[Doc Roc]

I'm.... rarely the voice of reason, and let me suggest that when I read Biff's plan, I hear klaxons chortling in my head, singing a little dirge for common sense. Look, trying to place the party in a position where the existing prepared casters are being useless is not a great way to articulate your opinion clearly and offer meaningful assistance to anyone.

Here's my take:
Sit down with your GM, ask him about the over-all power level and play-style he wants from his group. Some gamers, and gaming groups, really love playing blaster+blaster+beatstick+monkey games. I know this is hard to believe, but they may be doing it the way they enjoy rather than the optimal.

However, that's clearly not your thing. Talk to him about what you can do, where you can go, and why he needs these things from you. Be reasonable, be polite, and ask him if you can rebuild parts of your character or if he'd consider tome of battle as an alternative. You might have to make sacrifices for the health of the game here.



I have said my piece. If you desire clarifications, please let me know.

[lvl 1 fighter]

From what he's said before, the other party members include a Cleric and a Druid, and neither is even interested in contributing significantly or to the best of their ability. The rest of the party insists on using suboptimal tactics and his character is already forced to carry the team, thus his DM presumes he's overpowered.

Get Polymorph and Invisibility. Every fight, cast Invisibility and stay hidden doing nothing until the rest of the party is sure to lose. Then Polymorph into a War Troll and save everyone, then tell them to play better and repeat the same tactic on the next encounter.

Right. Good idea. Because everyone likes it when their friends put them through operant conditioning. Just remember: rewards work better than punishment. [/sarcasm]

[Doc Roc]

I carry around a single scroll of power word: kill on most characters, and a few tricks to make sure it hits. When someone tries operant conditioning, I kill them in their sleep.
I can say with confidence that neither escalation nor operant conditioning has ever improved my gaming table experiences. :S Trust me when I suggest that I speak from experience.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

All it takes is getting the Cleric to cast Divine Power + Righteous Might, or getting the Druid to shape into a Dire Bear, just one time. Then he can point out to the DM that someone has to be dealing damage like that every fight for them to succeed, and just because he's the one who steps up to the task consistently doesn't mean he's overpowered.

[only1doug]

All it takes is getting the Cleric to cast Divine Power + Righteous Might, or getting the Druid to shape into a Dire Bear, just one time. Then he can point out to the DM that someone has to be dealing damage like that every fight for them to succeed, and just because he's the one who steps up to the task consistently doesn't mean he's overpowered.

Oddly enough The cleric does occasionally use divine power + rightous might (and then adds turning smite (pathfinder) if undead). He hit a Undead creature for 7d6+15 + (6d6 will save DC20 for 1/2).

But I'm the broken cheese character. (and one of the other players, an Ubercharger warforged (hence My repair spells)).

I think my GM objects to the consistant damage, I can keep up 4d8+7 x3/round all day long, the others have to burn spellpoints to hit as hard (or of course much harder). I think I also upset him when he put in unhittable creatures (needed 17+ on first attack) and I simply switched to clap of thunder for 4d8 sonic touch attacks (su) 1/round.

I only feel Underpowered when the ubercharger attacks (He is also labelled as cheesy) but i think he feels the same way about me.

the rogue regularly gets 9d6 on his attacks (6d6 sneak attack + GMWallop on light mace) so his damage output is part of my cheese :)

I think the biggest problem is the dervish barbarian, he sucks at builds and only does 1d6 + 5 +1d6 Electricity with his attacks.

The paladin is focused on defense so his damage output is less (but still better than the dervisher) at 1d10+9

The blaster sorcerer has started taking spellthief levels.

(we have 7 players but only 4 are regular)

[Keld Denar]

Trust me...your build is hardly optimial. At least, you have 2 too many levels in Duskblade to be optimal. At most, you ahve 5 too many levels in Duskblade to be optimal. 3 would be a good number if you planned on channeling things like Combust or Vamp Touch through your melee attacks for get big pretty numbers to flash across your screen. You aren't even THAT powerful. My suggestion is to tell your DM to take a chill pill yo, cause you aren't doing anything that qualifies as "optimial" or much less "OP".

[Eldariel]

Like I already said, it's a DM perception problem. He seems to think the game should be the same with slightly bigger numbers on level 12 as it is on level 1, which is just not the case. Characters get more versatile, many problems get more trivial, and the numbers get way bigger.

A level 12 character can't be expected to be poking someone for 2d6+9 damage (what a first-level Human Barbarian does while Raging; with Extra Rage, 3 encounters per day, and with Whirling Frenzy two attacks at +5 each, and that's with a feat open and without even trying) anymore, 'cause the rules just pretty much force you to be doing more than that.


You just need to make your DM realize that and I'll bet the problem will go away.