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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Pixie in the Playground
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    Default Random build inquiry, Ubercharger [3.5]

    Random, but after running around both these and the wizards of the coast forums. Anyone that could either link to a build that demonstrates how it works or simply list out a good build.

    I'm not asking for one that deals a thousand damage a round or anything. Just something that makes use of leap attack and heedless charges and optimizes around that. Not purely power games with it. Any help appreciates it.

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    Firbolg in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Random build inquiry, Ubercharger [3.5]

    You've got your terms slightly mixed up.

    A charger uses a selection of feats to deal significant damage on a charge. However, they can't typically one-shot any challenging enemy, and they can do other things too. Dungeoncrasher Fighter is one approach; Barbarian is another; a third is to use Paladin with Charging Smite.

    The ubercharger is a specific theoretical exercise in character optimisation that deals somewhere between thousands and hundreds of thousands of damage on a charge and does absolutely nothing else.

    I don't have links to hand, but Eldariel probably does.

    - Saph
    Last edited by Saph; 2009-07-16 at 01:39 AM.
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    Default Re: Random build inquiry, Ubercharger [3.5]

    I think the terms are relatively interchangable, thanks to the wonders of common usage.

    The term Ubercharger, has been used to describe the entire continuum of builds which are designed to destroy a single opponent with a charge attack. I agree that the origin of the term lies within the theoretical exercise, but the evolution of usage has expanded its definition into any charger build that begins to outstrip the kinds of damage with which RAW D&D was designed to deal.

    In answer to the OP, the easiest entry point to Uberchargerdom lies in the following Feats and ACFs:

    Power Attack/Cleave/Improved Bull Rush/Leap Attack/Shock Trooper/Destructive Rage/Intimidating Rage

    ACF: Spirit Lion Totem (Complete Champion)

    I'll give you a human build, since it gets you in earlier. Pick a race with a Str bonus, and you're going to delay your entry to full goodness. I say the trade-off isn't worth it, unless you're playing at a high enough level that the later entry won't bother you. If you are, then pick a race with a large Str bonus and the Powerful Build feature (might I recommend goliath: worth the +1 LA if you're starting at level 12 or higher).

    Anyhow, without further ado, here's the basic framework.

    Barbarian 1: Power Attack, Cleave; ACF: Spirit Lion Totem (trades fast movement for pounce)
    Bbn 1/Fighter 1: Extra Rage
    Bbn 1/Ftr 2: Destructive Rage, Improved Bull Rush
    Bbn 1/Ftr 3:
    Bbn 1/Ftr 4: Intimidating Rage
    Bbn 1/Ftr 5: Leap Attack
    Bbn 1/Ftr 6: Shock Trooper
    Bbn 1/Ftr 6/Frenzied Berserker 1: Diehard (bonus feat)

    So at Level 8, you're off to the races. Assuming a beginning Str of 18 and some gauntlets of ogre power, you're looking at a Str of 22. That's 32 in a frenzied rage.

    With a greatsword, you're looking at a heedless leaping charge with full Power Attack to get three strikes at +21//+21/+16 for 2d6+40 damage per hit (2d6+48 if you believe that Leap Attack gives you 4-for-1 on a two-handed weapon), before taking any weapon enhancements or other buffs into account. That's putting you in the vicinity of 150 points of damage on a successful charge at level 8.

    Oh, one other thing. You might want to consider some means of getting yourself out of that frenzy before the time expires. If you've got a cleric or bard in your party, you may wish to talk them into keeping a calm emotions on hand to mellow you out. If not, might I suggest a quick dip into Warblade to pick up Iron Heart Surge?
    Last edited by Twilight Jack; 2009-07-16 at 02:17 AM.
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    Ettin in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Random build inquiry, Ubercharger [3.5]

    @Jack, above : If you're in a Frenzy, you already get the bonus attack that Haste would give you. Also, did you factor in any FB power attack boosts you might get?
    Last edited by Quietus; 2009-07-16 at 02:12 AM.
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    Default Re: Random build inquiry, Ubercharger [3.5]

    Quote Originally Posted by Quietus View Post
    @Jack, above : If you're in a Frenzy, you already get the bonus attack that Haste would give you. Also, did you factor in any FB power attack boosts you might get?
    Duh, you're right. It had been awhile since I'd actually read the frenzied berserker entry. I'll fix it.

    And I didn't add in the FB PA boosts because those don't start showing up until FB 4. I just went to the first level to show how to get into the class fast while still leaving room for Shock Trooper and Leap Attack.

    Also, the arguments about precisely what happens when Leap Attack and those Power Attack boosts intersect are ones I'd prefer not to get into.

    I say that it gets into doubling of a doubling is a tripling, but many disagree.

    My Leap Attacking Frenzied Berserker deals 5-for-1 on a Power Attack, but I've seen others insist on much higher ratios.
    Last edited by Twilight Jack; 2009-07-16 at 02:20 AM.
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    Default Re: Random build inquiry, Ubercharger [3.5]

    Also, Iron Heart Surge doesn't really work in Frenzy. A frenzied character is required to attack his foes or nearest target to the best of his ability. Taking a pause to use Iron Heart Surge isn't attacking the nearest target by any definition.

    - Saph
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    Default Re: Random build inquiry, Ubercharger [3.5]

    Quote Originally Posted by Saph View Post
    Also, Iron Heart Surge doesn't really work in Frenzy. A frenzied character is required to attack his foes or nearest target to the best of his ability. Taking a pause to use Iron Heart Surge isn't attacking the nearest target by any definition.

    - Saph
    Hrm, good point. Any suggestions?
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    Firbolg in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Random build inquiry, Ubercharger [3.5]

    A spellcaster who's prepared for it can usually find something to fix the problem. Calm Emotions, is the traditional one.

    However, if I was actually playing in a party with a Frenzied Berserker, my preferred solution would be to treat the Frenzied Berserker as a kind of auto-targeting missile. You fire it in the general direction of the enemy, then you get far, far away and don't come back until things have gone quiet and the screaming has stopped.

    - Saph
    I'm the author of the Alex Verus series of urban fantasy novels. Fated is the first, and Book #10 in the series, Fallen, is out as of September 2019. For updates, check my blog!

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    Default Re: Random build inquiry, Ubercharger [3.5]

    Fire-and-forgetting the Frenzied Berserker is easier for some parties than for others.

    If you've got a party full of folks who can snipe effectively, then you're in much better shape.

    The other answer of course, is to pump the Frenzied Berserker's Will save enough to make a DC 20 trivial. But that's not easy to do when you're multiclassing through Barbarian and Fighter to gain early access with Shock Trooper and Leap Attack.

    Step one, obviously, is not using Wisdom as your dump stat. Spending that 9th level feat on Steadfast Determination would be nifty, if you had a feat slot to spare on Endurance at some point before that. Assuming a Con 14 to start, that would net you a minimum +8 Will save in a rage, which would hopefully break your frenzy within a round or two.
    Last edited by Twilight Jack; 2009-07-16 at 02:57 AM.
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    Default Re: Random build inquiry, Ubercharger [3.5]

    Well if his will save is crap, hold person would probably be another nice choice (hold person is slightly better because if his rage ends before the fight is over, you can still use it on your enemies.)
    Last edited by Milskidasith; 2009-07-16 at 02:53 AM.

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    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Random build inquiry, Ubercharger [3.5]

    One of my early attempts at an ubercharger who is actually playable. ECL 10 Halfling.
    (The quoted post is recent. The original build is a bit older)

    Edit: There are errors in this. A later post has corrections.

    Quote Originally Posted by Irreverent Fool View Post
    Ashton Timberfell
    Paladin 8/Cavalier 2
    You want to have a maximum strength score and a high enough wisdom that you gain at least one bonus 2nd-level spell. This second part isn't 100% necessary and you might consider taking 2 levels in fighter instead of the last 2 levels of paladin if you don't have the points to spread around.

    You take the charging smite [2*Paladin Level damage to evil creatures on a smite] to deal alternate class feature from PHB2 and lose your special mount. Instead you buy yourself a 6HD advanced cheetah warbeast mount (cheetah- PHB, warbeast- MM2). This is useful because it is a medium creature and ends up having a base speed of 60.

    With your remaining WBL, you buy a healing belt (MiC) and using the item-combining rules in the MiC, make it also be a +6 belt of giant strength (DMG). This will be most of your money. You should have enough left for a small +2 lance. You'll need an exotic saddle too. Buy armor if you want.

    Your feats are:
    1 Mounted Combat
    1 Ride-by Attack
    3 Spirited Charge
    6 Weapon Focus: Lance (I think this is a prereq for cavalier)
    9 Power Attack

    Ride and Handle Animal should have max ranks.

    Assuming a high enough wisdom, I prepare One Mind(SpC) in the 2nd-level slot and Rhino's Rush(SpC) in both 1st-level slots.

    Rhino's Rush is a swift action to cast and increases your multiplier on a charge by one (normally doing x2). Assuming you managed to swing an 18 in strength, your score will be 24 (18, -2 racial, +6 enhancement, +2 from levels).

    Cavalier grants bonuses while mounted, including damage and the use of Deadly Charge.

    A "full-nova" attack will look something like this:
    Cast One Mind before combat, raising chance to hit by +2 while mounted
    Cast Rhino's Rush
    +12 to hit Deadly Charge/Smiting charge with your lance 2-handed dealing
    1d8+2(weapon) +10(STR*1.5) +16(smite) +20(full power attack)
    Lance: x2
    Mounted: x3
    Spirited Charge: x4
    Deadly Charge: x5
    That's 1d8+50 multiplied by 5. Even on a roll of 1, that's 255 damage. On an 8 it's 290.

    As a bonus, once an hour a cheetah can move up to 10x its base land speed. That's 600 feet. Also, you have ride-by attack. It's perhaps not the MOST broken ECL10, but it's quite effective. You're still moderately useful when you can't charge as well. Don't forget to teach your cheetah tricks. You don't need a cheetah. You could ride any medium creature.

    Books Used:
    Dungeon Master's Guide
    Magic Item Compendium
    Monster Manual II
    Player's Handbook
    Player's Handbook II
    Spell Compendium
    Sword and Fist Complete Warrior

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    Last edited by Irreverent Fool; 2009-07-16 at 06:43 PM.
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    Bugbear in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Random build inquiry, Ubercharger [3.5]

    Quote Originally Posted by Milskidasith View Post
    Well if his will save is crap, hold person would probably be another nice choice (hold person is slightly better because if his rage ends before the fight is over, you can still use it on your enemies.)
    Hold person is risky, though, since it allows the berserker another Will save every round to break free and start eating faces again. In a rage, that +2 to Will might come back to bite you if he's allowed to roll more than once to break it. The Save DC is almost certainly less than 20, which means he's more likely to break free of the hold person than the frenzy.
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    Default Re: Random build inquiry, Ubercharger [3.5]

    Quote Originally Posted by Irreverent Fool View Post
    Probably not the most optimized, but from one of my earlier builds at ECL 10
    Always love the mounted chargers.
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    Default Re: Random build inquiry, Ubercharger [3.5]

    Shouldn't your mount be one size larger than you?

    Is it a wrong assumption, dued only to the size of horses and riding dogs?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kurald Galain View Post
    The rogue isn't really using charisma in melee, the rogue is applying Ability Score #6 to his Type-One attacks.
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    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Random build inquiry, Ubercharger [3.5]

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaiyanwang View Post
    Shouldn't your mount be one size larger than you?

    Is it a wrong assumption, dued only to the size of horses and riding dogs?
    Cheetahs are medium creatures. Halflings are small. This alleviates the problems of playing a mounted charger in a dungeon environment.

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    Default Re: Random build inquiry, Ubercharger [3.5]

    Regarding the Frenzied Berserker:
    Even if you have a 18 will save, theres still the 5% chance of you failing your will save. Assuming 4 combats a day, thats a 20% chance. Well, perhaps not quite as much - as you won't have 4 frenzys per day in the first place for a long time.

    Anyways, a cleric dip to grab the pride domain (reroll all 1's on saving throws) and the will save bonus helps.
    It means you'll delay your FB entry though, since FB needs a BAB of 7.

    The problems that I see with dumping your will save:
    - Same thing as with the 1's... you can always roll a 20. Except for one thing, theres nothing like the pride domain for you.
    Now some say, just forgeo your saving throw as stated here:
    Quote Originally Posted by SRD
    Voluntarily Giving up a Saving Throw: A creature can voluntarily forego a saving throw and willingly accept a spell’s result. Even a character with a special resistance to magic can suppress this resistance if he or she wants to.
    But foregoing saving throws so you'll stop your frenzy hardly qualifies as "fighting the next creature to the best of her/his ability".
    IMHO when you fail your will saving throw, the DM should take over and get the slaughter going. At this point you'll only get to say one thing each round: "I make a will saving throw to end my frenzy" while the party gets turned into shish kebap.

    - Low will saves are bad for fightery-types. (I don't think I have to explain why... Dominate person. "Kill your friends!" gg.)

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    Default Re: Random build inquiry, Ubercharger [3.5]

    Quote Originally Posted by Irreverent Fool View Post
    Cheetahs are medium creatures. Halflings are small. This alleviates the problems of playing a mounted charger in a dungeon environment.

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    I've seen 2 feats at level 1 and I assumed Human. I remember now there' a race of halflings able to take an extra feat at level 1, and there are flaws, too.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kurald Galain View Post
    The rogue isn't really using charisma in melee, the rogue is applying Ability Score #6 to his Type-One attacks.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eldariel View Post
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  18. - Top - End - #18
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    Default Re: Random build inquiry, Ubercharger [3.5]

    Strongheart Halflings really are quite an amazing race, imo. The human's best racial feature in a nifty small sized package.

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    Default Re: Random build inquiry, Ubercharger [3.5]

    Quote Originally Posted by Saph View Post
    You've got your terms slightly mixed up.

    A charger uses a selection of feats to deal significant damage on a charge. However, they can't typically one-shot any challenging enemy, and they can do other things too. Dungeoncrasher Fighter is one approach; Barbarian is another; a third is to use Paladin with Charging Smite.

    The ubercharger is a specific theoretical exercise in character optimisation that deals somewhere between thousands and hundreds of thousands of damage on a charge and does absolutely nothing else.

    I don't have links to hand, but Eldariel probably does.

    - Saph
    As requested, the original übercharger:
    http://forums.gleemax.com/wotc_archi...x.php/t-105223

    And the update:
    http://web.archive.org/web/200802142...d.php?t=401662


    They showcase the tools used to achieve those numbers, so even if you aren't interested in dealing thousands of points of damage, they can be of interest to you but mostly I'm just linking them to clear out the confusion between your average Charger and Übercharger.

    But yeah, Frenzied Berserker is your best bet for standard non-mounted charging. Leap Attack and Shock Trooper are musts. Other than that, just focus on shoring up your Will-save and picking up Extra Rages and suck and go to town.
    Last edited by Eldariel; 2009-07-16 at 09:46 AM.
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    Default Re: Random build inquiry, Ubercharger [3.5]

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaiyanwang View Post
    I've seen 2 feats at level 1 and I assumed Human. I remember now there' a race of halflings able to take an extra feat at level 1, and there are flaws, too.
    I forgot to mention that he had the shaky flaw. I suppose it would probably have been better to have made him a strongheart halfling. I don't think I knew about them at the time though.

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    Default Re: Random build inquiry, Ubercharger [3.5]

    Quote Originally Posted by Irreverent Fool View Post
    Lance: x2
    Mounted: x3
    Spirited Charge: x4
    Deadly Charge: x5
    First: Lance while mounted AND charging gives *2. Spirited Charge makes it *3.
    Deadly Charge cares not for your Spirited Charge, and just decides to be *4.

    Also, seriously? *5 Deadly Charge? It says right in the book it's *4... If you had a valorous lance, all you numbers would be right, but you said you had a +2.

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    Default Re: Random build inquiry, Ubercharger [3.5]

    My two cents on leap attack + power attack: Power attack says that the bonus damage is double the sacrificed BaB. Leap attack triples the bonus damage. Your doubling two different things, so the double then triple is a quadruple doesn't apply.

    Also the intent of the designers obvious from the errata is that leap attack + power attack does triple the sacrificed BaB. They forgot to delete the third sentence.
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    Default Re: Random build inquiry, Ubercharger [3.5]

    Quote Originally Posted by Lamech View Post
    Also the intent of the designers obvious from the errata is that leap attack + power attack does triple the sacrificed BaB. They forgot to delete the third sentence.
    It doesn't make a difference with Frenzied Berserker in the mix; you'll end up with x6 either way.
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    Default Re: Random build inquiry, Ubercharger [3.5]

    Quote Originally Posted by sofawall View Post
    First: Lance while mounted AND charging gives *2. Spirited Charge makes it *3.
    Deadly Charge cares not for your Spirited Charge, and just decides to be *4.

    Also, seriously? *5 Deadly Charge? It says right in the book it's *4... If you had a valorous lance, all you numbers would be right, but you said you had a +2.
    You forget to factor in Rhino's Rush. That is to say, replacing the +2 lance with a +1 Valorous one would give you x6.
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    Default Re: Random build inquiry, Ubercharger [3.5]

    For frenzy, you can get righteous rage, its a feat on BoED. This way, even in frenzy you wont attack your friends.

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    Default Re: Random build inquiry, Ubercharger [3.5]

    If you mean Righteous Wrath - that feat only mentions rage, not frenzy. Frenzy is a different animal than rage and the point of the Righteous Wrath feat isn't controlling yourself during rage. It's qualifiying for CoG.

    You can do that without it anyway and they certainly didn't intend this as a FB-control measure. BoED got printed 2 months before CW - so the Frenzied Berserker didn't even exist when they printed this feat.
    Last edited by #Raptor; 2009-07-17 at 02:56 AM.

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    Default Re: Random build inquiry, Ubercharger [3.5]

    Quote Originally Posted by Saph View Post
    Also, Iron Heart Surge doesn't really work in Frenzy. A frenzied character is required to attack his foes or nearest target to the best of his ability. Taking a pause to use Iron Heart Surge isn't attacking the nearest target by any definition.

    - Saph
    I had a player who tried to claim that a character frenzying wouldn't rage at the same time. I told him he'd do everything in his power to kill everything in sight. I think a lot of people underestimate just how severe Frenzy is supposed to be.

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    Default Re: Random build inquiry, Ubercharger [3.5]

    Quote Originally Posted by sofawall View Post
    Also, seriously? *5 Deadly Charge? It says right in the book it's *4... If you had a valorous lance, all you numbers would be right, but you said you had a +2.
    Seriously? Seriously. Seriously!

    I forgot to write down Rhino's Rush. Just ignore that list.

    I wasn't quite as adept at book-diving at the time I made that and I think I skipped some things. There are several errors in my calculations. Among them is the fact that Charging Smite deals +2 damage per paladin level in addition to the normal bonus damage done by a smite. I think I may have also thought that Deadly Charge stacked with Spirited Charge though the book specifically says otherwise. I didn't know about the valorous weapon enchantment at the time either, so let's add that in.

    Assuming the target is evil:
    {table]To hit:||
    +7 strength bonus|+7|
    charging|+2|
    one mind|+2|
    small|+1|
    weapon|+1|
    charisma(smite)|+X|
    TOTAL|+13+X to hit|
    |
    +7 strength bonus x1.5:|+10|
    2hPower Attack:|+2|
    Lance:|+1|
    Smite Evil:|+8|
    Charging Smite:|+16|
    TOTAL:|+55|
    ||
    Deadly Charge:|x3|Cavalier|
    With Lance:|x4|
    Rhino's Rush:|x5|Spell Compendium
    Valorous:|x6|Unapproachable East[/table]

    Also, by RAW you're supposed to 'multiply' dice by rolling more, not rolling one and multiplying. That's more fun anyway. So the final result for the cheetah-mounted halfling paladin would be 6d8+330, making the final damage range 336-378 and an average of 357 at level 10. Of course, that's maximum damage and you usually don't want to power attack for your full BAB unless you're sure you can hit.

    obnoxious
    sig
    Last edited by Irreverent Fool; 2009-07-16 at 07:01 PM.
    On DMPCs: "Remember, nothing will spice up your campaign quicker than long descriptions of NPC’s doing spectacular stuff while the players sit around and watch." -Shamus Young, DM of the Rings
    Divide By Zero: Irreverent Fool, you are my hero.

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