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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Pixie in the Playground
     
    subzerosako's Avatar

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    Default Spartan base class.

    Ok. This has probably been done before or can be found in a book.but im cheap so I'll do it here.

    I was thinking of it as a fighter without the feats, and with abilities. Among them is a sneak attack, similair to the rogues but not as much, starting proffeciancies with the shortsword, spears, and shield bashing. a friend of mine also stated that they would have somethign similair to rage, a blood thirst of some sort.

    As a down side to it, anyone who is NOT a spartan would get massive negatives to dealing with it, and the spartan himself would be acting worse then a paladin. I. E. proud to a fault. Refuses all help, insulting to everyone unlike him. Disdains all magics. also, in pertaining to the Heros of Battle morale checks and stuff, for every one hundered spartans in a force, add one to the DC of the morale check, or Minus one from the saves.


    I'd also like to see something with formations and bonus's to such.

    Any and All help on this would be appreciated.
    yeah, the skeletons, their on our side.

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Pixie in the Playground
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    Default Re: Spartan base class.

    I suppose it's not much of a help, but I know there are a few feats that give various bonuses for different formations used in conjunction with others of the same feat. Complete Warrior, maybe?

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    Pixie in the Playground
     
    subzerosako's Avatar

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    Default Re: Spartan base class.

    Yeah, the tactical feats. Their alright, but their prohibitive, very situational and some are prerequistive heavy. And they don't give that good of bonus's, nothing worthy of a Spartan.
    yeah, the skeletons, their on our side.

  4. - Top - End - #4
    Halfling in the Playground
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    Default Re: Spartan base class.

    Spartans, as in the people of the Greek polis of Sparta, are likely just ordinary fighters. They accepted aid, and would fight just like everybody else. However, they were very good at what they did, and quite tough to boot. Toughness and Improved Toughness. If you want to play some sort of crazy fighter, take a couple of Vows and play a fighter/barbarian/hamster trainer.
    On the other hand, maybe you might want to play more of a gladiatorial-style character. Gladiators traditionally were pretty sneaky, and sneak attack seems only reasonable.
    My take on the Gladiator:
    HD: D10
    Armor: Light
    Class skills: Fighter, plus Tumble and Jump
    Weapons: All simple and martial, plus Trident and Whip
    Sneak Attack bonus damage=1d6 per three levels, gains at 3rd level.
    Fighter bonus feat at 2nd, 5th, 8th, 13th levels. (Usually, a gladiator will get something like Improved Trip or Improved Sunder.
    Uncanny Dodge at 4th level
    Improved Uncanny Dodge at 9th level
    (Yes, I'm well aware this is somewhat off topic.)
    20 minutes. Out front. Pufferfish.

  5. - Top - End - #5
    Pixie in the Playground
     
    subzerosako's Avatar

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    Default Re: Spartan base class.

    What i was aiming for when i said Sneak attack was something similair but not quite the same. It would work off the shield bash, the bash making them flat footed and open to the extra damage from the shortsword. On second thought that might work for a Roman legionaire. But back to the Spartans. They weren't sneaky in the least, and from all I've seen they were arrogant, proud people who held themselves above all others, including other Greeks. The only reason they stayed to hold Thermoplyae.(sp?)


    And the build im looking for is a straight up charger. Pretty much an alt. for the fighter and the barb. without magic but with abilities.
    yeah, the skeletons, their on our side.

  6. - Top - End - #6
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    Default Re: Spartan base class.

    Spartans were simply high level fighters. They weren't a class unto themselves. Training started very early.

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    Pixie in the Playground
     
    subzerosako's Avatar

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    Default Re: Spartan base class.

    Well, as I said, I'm only doing this because I love spartans. and I want a respectable fighting class for higher levels.
    yeah, the skeletons, their on our side.

  8. - Top - End - #8
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    Default Re: Spartan base class.

    Well, what do you see as a Spartan?

    A proud, ruthless, capable warrior who fights best in formation, right? And I take it you want to leave the sodomy out.

    Don't give them the appraise skill. Spartans forsook material wealth. Spartans were deeply religious and superstitious. They wouldn't necessarily abandon magic altogether. Diplomacy should be cross class. Give them a set of behaviourial codes as stringent as a Paladin's.

    Give them a d12 hit die. They were real diehards. No tridents or whips. They may have been homosexuals, but they definitely weren't flamboyant. All armor proficiencies, their armor was made of bronze. The hoplite was an incredible display of human strength and endurance.

    Instead of fighter bonus feats, grant them feats for fighting as a unit, from whatever book that was. Hoplite groups didn't have to be huge to be effecive. I'd give any group of 16 Spartans (4x4 in formation) or greater bonus morale saves.

    I'd give them the ability to make charge attacks with longspears with a 90% chance of breaking the spear. Enemy formations would form up and then spear charge. Upon crashing together, spears splintering, they'd draw their short swords and hack eachother up.

    Spartans should get weapon focus: short sword. Javelins and bows were also used. Due to their intense training, Spartans should probably get all martial weapons, simple weapons and armor.

    Give them an ability with shields that, when in formation (4x4 or more) they get a defense bonus.

    Outfitting a Hoplite, however, was expensive. About the equivalent of buying a car.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sparta

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hoplite

  9. - Top - End - #9
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    HalfOrcPirate

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    Default Re: Spartan base class.

    I'd give them a bunch of class abilities that grant them bonuses based on the number of Spartans around them. For instance:

    Will of the Many
    Starting at level 3 a Spartan gains +1 to their will saving throw for every other Spartan they are fighting in formation with, up to a maximum of ten.






  10. - Top - End - #10
    Orc in the Playground
     
    DwarfClericGuy

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    Default Re: Spartan base class.

    Phalanx Fighting

    You excell at fighting in a phalanx formation. When standing adjacent to at least two other warriors with this feat and equipped with shields - you gain a +2 competency bonus to AC.

    -------------

    I agree with others in this thread. A Spartan would not have anything like a sneak attack. They were simply the most disciplined of the Hellenic warriors.

    When very young, they would act as skirmishers using slings and javelins. But once they were of age they would join the phalanx - fighting with shield and spear. The shortsword was a weapon of last resort as it did not work well in the phalanx.

    For an excellet example of Spartan warriors at their best, read Gates of Fire, by Steven Pressfield. The book is an epic novel retelling the story of the Battle of Thermopylae from the point of view of the soldiers.

  11. - Top - End - #11
    Halfling in the Playground
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    Default Re: Spartan base class.

    Why not make it a PrC? I'd write something up, but it'd be horribly unbalanced, as I have no experience with this.

  12. - Top - End - #12
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    Default Re: Spartan base class.

    When very young, they would act as skirmishers using slings and javelins. But once they were of age they would join the phalanx - fighting with shield and spear. The shortsword was a weapon of last resort as it did not work well in the phalanx.
    According to wikipedia, fighting tactics between phalanxes (charging at full run) resulted in their spears breaking. Once fully engaged, having run into each other at full speed, spears became cumbersome in the melee. Spears are typically thought of as defensive weapons, but the hoplites used them offensively.

    Non-hoplites had javelins and short swords. The javelins could be used for melee fighting, but were usually thrown. The javelins were weighted in such a way that if they stuck in a shield the shield would become unweildly and useless. If it stuck in your guts it'd drag you down.

    After throwing their javelins, the warriors would move in upon eachother, swords drawn. The Iliad is a great source for how heros fought in epic battles.

  13. - Top - End - #13
    Halfling in the Playground
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    Default Re: Spartan base class.

    Quote Originally Posted by Spuddly

    According to wikipedia, fighting tactics between phalanxes (charging at full run) resulted in their spears breaking. Once fully engaged, having run into each other at full speed, spears became cumbersome in the melee. Spears are typically thought of as defensive weapons, but the hoplites used them offensively.

    Non-hoplites had javelins and short swords. The javelins could be used for melee fighting, but were usually thrown. The javelins were weighted in such a way that if they stuck in a shield the shield would become unweildly and useless. If it stuck in your guts it'd drag you down.

    After throwing their javelins, the warriors would move in upon eachother, swords drawn. The Iliad is a great source for how heros fought in epic battles.
    Let me first make the comment that as a historian, I have found that Wikipedia is not always the best source for such research. Wikipedia tends to attract pedants and fanboys who are more than willing to fill in the blanks on the areas where they actually don't know what they're talking about.

    Having studied Spartans for a historical research project, one thing that needs to be noted is that the Spartan hoplite's spear had a bronze spike butted on to the other end, which was used if the shaft broke for the traditional business end. A Spartan would charge with the normal spear head forward, and if that broke, flip the weapon about in their hands and then proceed to jab viciously with their shortened (after having the shaft been broken or cut) bronze spikes. Only if their spike was disarmed or destroyed, then the Spartan warrior switched to the iron sword as the last resort.

    The Illiad is definitely not an accurate piece to use as a reference for historical tactics and strategies, it actually being written a goodly amount of time after the Trojan War. Homer's identity is still currently being debated by historians and many military historians believe that his descriptions of the Illiad's battles use details and descriptions that are anachronistic to the time period the Trojan War supposedly took place.

    ON SPARTAN SNEAKINESS: Whoever said that Spartans were not good at stealth, has never read up on Spartan training. Spartan boys who are being trained to become soldiers are first organized into squad like groups, and then fed inadequate amounts of food until the point they were malnourished. But the trick was that the adult Spartans would daily leave out food in semi-accessible places for the training boys to spot, and the resourceful boys would attempt to steal it. The adults often guarded the food cautiously once they let the boys know of its presence. Punishment for getting caught was harsh: confinement, beatings or more starvation. However, those who succeeded often were boys who learned to work as a small group, with properly executed coordination: having look outs, decoys and setting up a passing system once the food was nabbed. This is exactly what the Spartan elders wanted. Eventually those who succeeded without being caught would be noted for their growing health, and often went on to advanced training where the others would simply languish and be consigned to less glorious duties. In the twisted Spartan mentality, this encouraged the strong-willed and the clever, while weeding out the weak and unversatile. A second method of survival as a young soldier-in-training would be to find one of the sneaky boys who had food, and hope that you could beat him up or intimidate him so that you got the food. This was also viewed as another viable way to produce small group leaders; think of the foul-mouthed, brutish sergeants you've heard about in our modern armed forces. Either approach was encouraged and approved of by the Spartan trainers.

    By the time most Spartan soldiers were adults, they are either extremely well-versed in the arts of thievery and sneaking, or supremely versed in the art of thuggery.

    END WORD: Spartans are either pure fighters or multiclassed rogue/fighters, the idea that Spartans should have their own class is kinda silly. A Spartan was first and foremost are team player, a tougher than normal trooper, not some super soldier. Their battle tactics weren't vastly different from the other Greek polis' warriors of the period, it was just their iron discipline and "to the death" mentality that made them truly unique and frightening opponents. Just design custom feats that fit the Spartan warrior mold better and keep the fighter base class. If you really want, make Spartans a racial choice or background choice instead of a class, and make those special Spartan feats you designed accessible only to those characters who have Spartan as their race or background. That sounds alot better.
    "Do not excessively covet swords and daggers made by famous masters. Even if you can own a sword or dagger worth 10,000 pieces, it can be overcome by 100 spears each worth 100 pieces. Therefore, use the 10,000 pieces to procure 100 spears, and arm 100 men with them." - Asakura Toshikage



  14. - Top - End - #14
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    Default Re: Spartan base class.

    The Illiad is definitely not an accurate piece to use as a reference for historical tactics and strategies, it actually being written a goodly amount of time after the Trojan War. Homer's identity is still currently being debated by historians and many military historians believe that his descriptions of the Illiad's battles use details and descriptions that are anachronistic to the time period the Trojan War supposedly took place.
    I didn't mean to suggest accuracy in how things really happened, but how the Greeks saw them as happening. Sort of like how our action heros can dodge bullets and can shoot people without bothering to aim. Or the way they slug someone in the face without even getting a sore fist (fist fighting is wicked hard on the knuckles).

    A Spartan would charge with the normal spear head forward, and if that broke, flip the weapon about in their hands and then proceed to jab viciously with their shortened (after having the shaft been broken or cut) bronze spikes. Only if their spike was disarmed or destroyed, then the Spartan warrior switched to the iron sword as the last resort.
    I didn't know that, but that makes sense.

    Spartans are either pure fighters or multiclassed rogue/fighters, the idea that Spartans should have their own class is kinda silly. A Spartan was first and foremost are team player, a tougher than normal trooper, not some super soldier. Their battle tactics weren't vastly different from the other Greek polis' warriors of the period, it was just their iron discipline and "to the death" mentality that made them truly unique and frightening opponents.
    While I agree with this, I don't think this is what subzerosako wants. As D&D is a heroic game, not exactly a historic one, it may be ok to make Spartans somewhat more awesome than they were.

    I think a larger hit die (d12), chunky armor, a charge ability and a handful of bonus feats based around team tactics would be fair and accurate.

    Instead of Spartan, maybe call them Myrmidons, after Achilles' elite soldiers? Not exactly equivalent, but Myrmidon sounds cooler than Spartan.

  15. - Top - End - #15
    Pixie in the Playground
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    Default Re: Spartan base class.

    Oh. It took me a while to realise you were talking about Spartans as in Greek fighters, and not Spartans as in, like, Master Chief.

    Hehe. Halo DnD.
    R.I.P.&&Mitch Hedberg&&February 24, 1968 - March 30 2005&&\"Fruit on the bottom, hope on top...\"&&&&http://www.freewebs.com/seanmike Divided Gateway Characters! We make characters, simple as that. &&&&The official Miko Miyazaki fanboy!&&&&Half-celestial goblin avatar by Veera! Thanks!

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    Default Re: Spartan base class.

    Include lawful alignment demand. The myrmidons of myth where the only ones more lawful than the spartans.

  17. - Top - End - #17
    Pixie in the Playground
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    Default Re: Spartan base class.

    Makes sense given their rigorous training.

    Though, I will amend this and say that historical accuracy isn't TOO important, given the fact that you can multiclass your spartan to, say, wizard.

    I'll also add that Spartans aren't different enough (i.e. don't have enough unique abilities - read ones that can't be duplicated with feats) from fighters to merit a base class.

    My advice: Think of what you want your "Spartan" to do and just play a character LIKE a Spartan.

    I'm playing a "Knight" right now - essentially a lance-wielding fighter in heavy armour on a warhorse. Same diff. Even better once you multiclass to cavalier.

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