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2009-07-16, 04:29 PM (ISO 8601)
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4th ed Steathing- Explain Please.
How does the updated stealth rules work? It was really long and I ended up getting a headache and stopped reading.
An example would be nice or a template for a rogue looking to sneak attack more.
Assume we have a lvl 6 rogue with fleeting ghost power. Can he move, stealth and then sneak attack, round after round, if he succeeds on his stealth check?
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2009-07-16, 04:48 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 4th ed Steathing- Explain Please.
Let's start by taking the fully-updated rules for Stealth, as they appear in PHB2 and the Compendium.
STEALTH (DEXTERITY)
Armor Check Penalty
Make a Stealth check to conceal yourself from enemies, slink past guards, slip away without being noticed, and sneak up on people without being seen or heard.
This skill is used against another creature’s Perception check or against a DC set by the DM.
Stealth: At the end of a move action.
♦Opposed Check: Stealth vs. passive Perception. If multiple enemies are present, your Stealth check is opposed by each enemy’s passive Perception check. If you move more than 2 squares during the move action, you take a –5 penalty to the Stealth check. If you run, the penalty is –10.
♦Becoming Hidden: You can make a Stealth check against an enemy only if you have superior cover or total concealment against the enemy or if you’re outside the enemy’s line of sight. Outside combat, the DM can allow you to make a Stealth check against a distracted enemy, even if you don’t have superior cover or total concealment and aren’t outside the enemy’s line of sight. The distracted enemy might be focused on something in a different direction, allowing you to sneak up.
♦Success: You are hidden, which means you are silent and invisible to the enemy.
♦Failure: You can try again at the end of another move action.
♦Remaining Hidden: You remain hidden as long as you meet these requirements.
♦ Keep Out of Sight: If you no longer have any cover or concealment against an enemy, you don’t remain hidden from that enemy. You don’t need superior cover, total concealment, or to stay outside line of sight, but you do need some degree of cover or concealment to remain hidden. You can’t use another creature as cover to remain hidden.
♦ Keep Quiet: If you speak louder than a whisper or otherwise draw attention to yourself, you don’t remain hidden from any enemy that can hear you.
♦ Keep Still: If you move more than 2 squares during an action, you must make a new Stealth check with a –5 penalty. If you run, the penalty is –10. If any enemy’s passive Perception check beats your check result, you don’t remain hidden from that enemy.
♦ Don’t Attack: If you attack, you don’t remain hidden.
♦ Not Remaining Hidden: If you take an action that causes you not to remain hidden, you retain the benefits of being hidden until you resolve the action. You can’t become hidden again as part of that same action.
If you attack, you give your position away, and you're not hidden. However, you can still use your move action on your turn to move elsewhere and try to use Stealth again (assuming you can meet the prerequisites).
If you DO give yourself away, you still get the benefits of being hidden until the end of the action that gave you away. So if you attack, you still get your bonus to hit, sneak attack, and so on. You can't use the same action to give yourself away AND hide, though.
-Enemy Activity: An enemy can try to find you on its turn. If an enemy makes an active Perception check and beats your Stealth check result (don’t make a new check), you don’t remain hidden from that enemy. Also, if an enemy tries to enter your space, you don’t remain hidden from that enemy.
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Fleeting ghost (Rogue utility 2) simply lets you move up to your speed and make a Stealth check (which you could normally do anyway), but without taking the penalty for moving. He could, in theory, make an attack, then use fleeting ghost to move somewhere where he meets the Stealth prerequisites (superior cover, total concealment, out of line of sight, etc.) and make his Hide check. If he beats any enemy's passive perception, he's hidden against them. If they don't look for him, he can attack next turn (assuming he has line of sight and line of effect to them), which would give him CA/sneak attack but also make him unhidden, and then he could use fleeting ghost again to move and hide.
Now, which part(s) do you still have questions about?
Note, of course, that there are a LOT of ways besides Stealth for a Rogue to get Combat Advantage and thus Sneak Attack. Depending on your party, you could probably have CA against at least one enemy and get sneak attack every turn.The Playgrounder Formerly Known as rtg0922
Homebrew:
• "Themes of Ansalon" - A 4E Dragonlance Supplement
• Homebrew Compendium
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2009-07-17, 06:50 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2007
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Re: 4th ed Steathing- Explain Please.
Wait... I didn't catch that. Explain it again?
Good break down of the rule. I had a problem teaching a player some of these rules. Not the Stealth rule, cause this is actually how my group orginally played stealth before the change.
Good job, Rtg0922. (I need to find you a nickname...)Check out a bunch of stuff I wrote for my campaign world of Oz.
SpoilerI am the Burley, formerly known as Burley Warlock. I got my name changed. Please remember me...
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2009-07-17, 12:42 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2007
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Re: 4th ed Steathing- Explain Please.
Alright, lemme go find those updated Stealth rules and we'll start over...
Yeah, when I first signed up I didn't think I'd be around much, so I didn't pick a memorable username. Now ever so often I think about asking for a new one, but can't ever think of anything good. You can call me RTG or Ryan, I suppose.The Playgrounder Formerly Known as rtg0922
Homebrew:
• "Themes of Ansalon" - A 4E Dragonlance Supplement
• Homebrew Compendium
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2009-07-17, 01:03 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 4th ed Steathing- Explain Please.
Wow, I've never taken a hard look at the Stealth rules before. They look retarded. The first two sentences are good. In particular, the fact that your DM can set the DC (for noise, if you're talking, etc). After that, all they needed to add was "You take a -10 penalty if you run the same round that you make a Stealth check. You may only make a Stealth check if you have superior cover or total concealment against the enemy, if you’re outside the enemy’s line of sight, or if the enemy is distracted (as determined by your DM). Everything else is just confusing.
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2009-07-17, 01:12 PM (ISO 8601)
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2009-07-17, 02:21 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2008
Re: 4th ed Steathing- Explain Please.
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2009-07-17, 02:25 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2008
Re: 4th ed Steathing- Explain Please.
This makes me wonder if anyone has yet played a Rogue|Warlock with Shadow Walk via the Hybrid Talent feat. By RAW it'd let a rogue with a level 2 utility power walk around invisible all dang day long.
The thorn in its side is the fluffy sidebar in Arcane Power that describes Shadow Walk as a visual effect that grants concealment, sort of like generating a magical fog bank. Of course munchkins would argue that this is just fluff and has no effect on the RAW.
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2009-07-17, 02:45 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2005
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Re: 4th ed Steathing- Explain Please.
NOW COMPLETE: Let's Play Starcraft II Trilogy:
Hell, It's About Time: Wings of Liberty
Does This Mutation Make Me Look Fat: Heart of the Swarm
My Life For Aiur? I Barely Know 'Er: Legacy of the Void
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2009-07-17, 02:48 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2005
Re: 4th ed Steathing- Explain Please.
You can't hide in the Shadow Walk. You need at least Superior Concealment to start hiding, while Shadow Walk only gives normal.
A lot of what is there is to have it clear what happens when you interact with invisibility, blinding, and similar conditions. Combined with the other parts of the rules it influences, its rather well written, if a bit long.
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2009-07-17, 04:50 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2008
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2009-07-17, 04:56 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: 4th ed Steathing- Explain Please.
Yeah, but normal concealment is enough to CONTINUE your hiding.
With a Warlock/Rogue (or a hybrid Rogue|Warlock) with fleeting ghost, you could start out with Superior Cover or Concealment, use fleeting ghost to move your speed (or at least enough squares to trigger Shadow Walk), and then make your check again (with fleeting ghost, and thanks to your new Concealment) with no penalties for movement. It doesn't say when your actually GAIN your concealment (at the end of your move, at the end of your turn, as soon as you've moved the required number of squares, whatever), so you'd have to figure that out, but if it takes effect before you have to make your Stealth check, yeah, I guess it works.
There's also the problem of, basically, if you reveal yourself with an action, you can't hide as a part of that action. So if you get spotted by walking with fleeting ghost, you might or might not even be ABLE to make your check again. I suppose that's a Specific Vs. General rule that would come down on the side of fleeting ghost allowing it, but still... I think it's at best a mediocre strategy, and at worst doesn't work.Last edited by RTGoodman; 2009-07-17 at 04:59 PM.
The Playgrounder Formerly Known as rtg0922
Homebrew:
• "Themes of Ansalon" - A 4E Dragonlance Supplement
• Homebrew Compendium
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2009-07-17, 04:56 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2005
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2009-07-17, 06:09 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2008
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2009-07-17, 07:49 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Chicago, IL
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Re: 4th ed Steathing- Explain Please.
Oh yeah, I saw this awhile ago - made a "Shadow Thief" build (using MC Utility instead of Hybrid).
Now, with the original build, it wasn't so broken - you needed to be 8th level to make it work. But, apparently, Hybrid is as dumb as I thought it would be
Some limitations:
(1) You must move at least 3 squares per turn, every turn, to keep it up.
(2) You'll need to make a new Stealth Check every turn - 'cause you move more than 2 squares (see Staying Hidden)
(3) It vanishes completely when you attack
By LV 8, this makes for a limited, but useful, form of long term invisibility. At LV 1 I feel it might still be too powerful.
To be honest, I like the rewritten Stealth rules - the original ones were terribleLead Designer for Oracle Hunter GamesToday a Blog, Tomorrow a Business!
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