What's the appeal of the KotOR era?

[AstralFire]

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I suppose this is sort of an edge-topicality question, but as my question more pertains to the appeal of the Sith Wars/Jedi Civil War as a game setting than it does in general fiction, I think it can go here.

I've never really been a big fan, personally, but most of the games that I see going on are oriented around it. On the one hand, there's lots of Force Users - but you can find that in both the Clone Wars and the New Republic eras too, and there's a wider variety there. And on the other hand, it seems like every conflict ever is part of the Jedi-Sith religious war. I like Sith, but I like them used sparingly. (Though this is also part of my complaint with the way the setting slides as you get closer to the Legacy era.)

Palpy and Vader are Sith, sure, but they're not seemingly all over the place and they act through agents. Palpatine's rule wasn't even about a 'revenge of the Sith', near as I can tell, so much as "I'm booping awesome, I'm going to rule the known universe."

And Sith versus Jedi highlights the whole danger of falling to the Dark Side thing... and when it's all the time, you kinda end up feeling like maybe it'd be better if you just banned Force instruction since 1 out of 3 Jedi who become important do their best impression of a Warcraft major character and suddenly TURN EVIL AND DROP MAD LOOTS. (Disclaimer: May or may not drop mad loots.)

So... yeah, what's the big appeal of the Old Republic?

Thread has been answered. Thread is now about arguing the merits rather than explaining them to me. Bring it on! But don't jump into the argument without reading what's already been posted. =X

[Nerd-o-rama]

Because KOTOR (the video game) was better written than almost everything else in any Star Wars continuity, including the movies.

I think that's the main reason.

[AstralFire]

Because KOTOR (the video game) was better written than almost everything else in any Star Wars continuity, including the movies.

I think that's the main reason.

...What.

I've never attributed 'good writing' as one of Bioware's strengths, honestly. Mass Effect surprised me in this regard. So what you just said blew my mind there.

[Nerd-o-rama]

Well, I've never considered "good writing" to be the strength of anyone else related to the Star Wars series either. At least Bioware can manage non-stilted dialog.

[AstralFire]

Well, I've never considered "good writing" to be the strength of anyone else related to the Star Wars series either. At least Bioware can manage non-stilted dialog.

My potential responses include:

1. Thanking you for your input. [Truth]
2. Thanking you for your input. [Lie/Persuade]
3. Try to understand why you think this. [Wisdom]
4. WHY DON'T I SHOVE THAT DATAPAD DOWN YOUR THROAT [Dark Side]

I'll give you that Jolee, Canderous and Saul were entertainingly written, though.

[Nerd-o-rama]

The short version is, real Star Wars fans hate Star Wars.

Just kidding, but I did enjoy the overall plot, some of the subplots, and the NPC dialog in KOTOR. Your character's dialog wasn't terribly inspired (blame it being a video game RPG here), and a few of the subplots were just execrable (i.e. the romance subplots), but overall, it was a game that was much more enjoyable than the overhyped prequels or the overdone novels, which is why so many Star Wars fans latched onto it.

[Reverent-One]

I think what's also important is the openness of the era. In the prequel/clone wars time period, pretty much everything major is a manipulation of Palpatine, the Republic is on it's way out, and there's a lot of details filled in, which can leave players feeling constrained. The time of the rebellion is similarly crowded, and of course Jedi are low in numbers.

And other EU sources can be hit or miss, with no guarantee that the players are familiar with them. A popular video game though? That gives them at least a basic idea of the time period.

[AstralFire]

I'll concede different tastes. I thought KotOR 2 was better written, but rushed, and I actually like all of the movies. Episodes I - VI and the Clone Wars Microseries. The writing at times sinks to be on par with KotOR's "irrational dark side actions" with the exception of ESB, but much more exciting visuals/music/scenarios.

But I also bear a grudge against KotOR for its random weak Yoda clone among other things.

Still, all of that aside, that doesn't necessarily make the setting itself better and I find I appreciate the Sith less the more backstory we get on them. I don't understand how you can have an organization that is simultaneously devoted to its own existence and devoted towards slaughtering everyone else in said organization. Why would anyone raise an apprentice?

I think what's also important is the openness of the era. In the prequel/clone wars time period, pretty much everything major is a manipulation of Palpatine, the Republic is on it's way out, and there's a lot of details filled in, which can leave players feeling constrained. The time of the rebellion is similarly crowded, and of course Jedi are low in numbers.

That's true, you bring up a good point. As a DM, I usually go with the assumption that while if nothing else happens, we stick to the established major canon, if the players do something major the story will change. I personally think that leaves a lot of fun for What-If, or as they call it, 'Infinities' scenarios.

[Nerd-o-rama]

To create the most hilarious quest series in RPG history on Korriban, obviously. Good lord but quadruple-crossing people is fun.

[Grynning]

...
I'll give you that Jolee, Canderous and Saul were entertainingly written, though.

You left out 4 alphanumeric characters and a hyphen. HK-47 is one of the best comic relief characters in an RPG to date, IMO.

Regardless of one's opinions on the KOTOR games, I think the primary appeal for the setting for tabletop gaming is that the era spans such a broad timespan and has so many possibilities that weren't covered by the games and comics. This leaves a lot of ground to cover for PC's, without any canon to step on your storyline. The other eras all have cargo holds full of material (some of it good, some of it...god-awful) that cover pretty much anything heroic there would be to do, and it makes the galaxy feel a lot smaller. That's why we play in the KOTOR era anyway.

Edit: basically ninja'd by Reverent One.

[AstralFire]

I will certainly grant that if you're looking for humor in the Star Wars universe, Stormtroopers, Squibs, Ewoks, and C-3P0 have absolutely nothing on the Sith of the Old Republic era.

You left out 4 alphanumeric characters and a hyphen. HK-47 is one of the best comic relief characters in an RPG to date, IMO.

He's okay. I got tired of his schtick fast though, I mothballed him after Tatooine and was not happy to see him come back for a forced encore in 2 - he was one of the two party members in #2 I didn't like, as opposed to the fact that I only liked two party members in #1.

[mistformsquirrl]

Personally:

I like the KOTOR Era because it's not tied down to the prequels, nor the post-New Republic expanded universe..

The prequels... I personally did not enjoy very much; and due to the way they're tied in... they rather hurt my feelings for the original trilogy as well <~.~> (Obviously this is just my opinion)

I'm also not a fan of the later expanded universe stuff (as in the Yuuzhan Vong and later stuff) - lots of reasons for that as well.

KOTOR... well it feels, to me, like Star Wars did when I was first getting into it. Like the original trilogy + the X-Wing Books, Thrawn Trilogy and the like.

I like how the Sith Empire catches the whole "Imperial" vibe that the original trilogy Empire has... but adds regular dark jedi to the mix. They're menacing, they're evil... you don't feel too bad about blasting them <'x'>;; (This isn't to say I don't enjoy morally grey Star Wars at times; but having a clear bad guy is nice.)

I also like how the Republic is rather... well it's not good nor evil really; and the same could be said of the Jedi order. There are aspects that are certainly laudable... and others that are quite questionable. And more than a few that are just flat inefficient. (Which presents a lot of opportunity for PCs; since there are bound to be people looking to do things that the Republic simply can't or due to bureaucracy, won't.)

I"m not saying it's perfect by any stretch... but it catches the vibe that got me into Star Wars; and that's what I like about it <. .>m

Though the lack of X-Wings will forever be a knock against it <;_;>

[Faceist]

I liked how KotOR didn't tread the same old ground that a lot of other Star Wars tie-ins feel the need to. Since it was set - what, a few thousand years? - before the events of the movies, they were free to explore a significantly different galaxy from the one present in A New Hope or even the (shudder) pre-clone wars prequel trilogy. The writing can be campy at times, but is pretty consistently good: I'd say a lot of it is about on par with the original trilogy at its best. (It certainly runs rings around the prequels.) And above all else, it creates compelling and interesting characters. HK-47 was like a robotic Belkar, every sociopathic act of cruelty he performed made me chuckle guiltily. And Kreia was basically an insight into how a character like Palpatine would have to operate in day-to-day life, a domineering chessmaster manipulating people in increasingly subtle ways. (Not to say there weren't cookie-cutter characters there too, hello R2-D2 expy.)

Basically, there was no one aspect of the game I disliked to the point that it spoiled the rest of it. Does that make sense? It wasn't amazing, but it was good in all the right places.

[NEO|Phyte]

He's okay. I got tired of his schtick fast though, I mothballed him after Tatooine and was not happy to see him come back for a forced encore in 2.

Nothing's FORCING you to put all his parts back together, you know. If you don't like him, just let him sit there sparking in his alcove.

As for why its liked, it's more or less a combination of people liking the games, and thus the era by association, and the list of Canon people/events/whatever being a lot shorter than various other eras, allowing for more freedom of actions without worrying about pissing off Luke Skywalker or something. Plus it's a time when glowbat wielders aren't rare, should that float the players' boats.

[AstralFire]

Actually, that's one of my major complaints about the Qel-Droma and KotOR era - to me it doesn't feel like it's treading new ground. It's a remix of things people like, and most of it doesn't feel like it was done in a new way. Kreia, Jolee, Canderous and HK-47 are the most unusual things from that time compared to major things in the main universe, off the top of my head. The Sith work as almost a direct analogue to Palpatine's Empire, right down to nonsensical (but cool looking - even more than clonetroopers) Sith Troopers, the Republic is exactly as ailing and inefficient as it is right before the Galactic Civil War, the Jedi keep getting purged, there is a Jedi council, there are Yoda and R2-D2 Expies, there are Mandalorians, all of the major races are there as they are in the modern universe (if the Tusken Raiders met people 4,000 years ago, how the hell have they not developed at all?!) hyperspace technology is exactly the same...

I would like the era more if it really DID feel like it was 4,000 years ago. It doesn't. Hell, kolto runs rings around bacta apparently then people forget about it.

[Reverent-One]

If I were running a Star Wars campaign, my era choices would probably be these:

Kotor, for the reasons previously mentioned.

The New Republic era, while there were still plenty of groupings of Imperial holdings and the fiction was pretty much superweapon/crisis of the week. You could drop a large scale threat in there, and it wouldn't matter much. How many times is the Darksaber crisis mentioned again in the EU? Even the Sun Crusher incident wouldn't have been remembered much if not for the fact that Kyp Durron became a important jedi.

the Vong invasion, just for the different feel I think that exists there. Especially if the players aren't that familiar with it, since they would respond to the alien-ness of the Vong much like the citizens of the Republic did. "What the heck are those things?!" "I don't know! Run!!!!" It could be a much more survivalist type game.

[Grynning]

Actually, that's one of my major complaints about the Qel-Droma and KotOR era - to me it doesn't feel like it's treading new ground. It's a remix of things people like, and most of it doesn't feel like it was done in a new way. Kreia, Jolee, Canderous and HK-47 are the most unusual things from that time compared to major things in the main universe, off the top of my head. The Sith work as almost a direct analogue to Palpatine's Empire, right down to nonsensical (but cool looking - even more than clonetroopers) Sith Troopers, the Republic is exactly as ailing and inefficient as it is right before the Galactic Civil War, the Jedi keep getting purged, there is a Jedi council, there are Yoda and R2-D2 Expies, there are Mandalorians, all of the major races are there as they are in the modern universe (if the Tusken Raiders met people 4,000 years ago, how the hell have they not developed at all?!) hyperspace technology is exactly the same...

I would like the era more if it really DID feel like it was 4,000 years ago. It doesn't. Hell, kolto runs rings around bacta apparently then people forget about it.

I think the re-treading of themes is kind of part of the appeal, because KOTOR is closer to what a lot of people thought the prequel trilogy SHOULD have been. Really I think the only reason they slapped the "4000 year" distance on there was to appease Lucas by not stepping on anything. If you bumped it up to say, 40 years before new hope and then decided to ignore everything from episodes 1-3, suddenly all of the expies and similarities make more sense. You can see a much cooler origin for Anakin, Vader and Palpatine emerging from that universe than what we actually got in the films, at least that's the opinion many friends and I share.

Also, regarding timelines in fantasy - Lord of the Rings readers and movie fans readily accept that Middle Earth was completely culturally and technologically stagnant for TENS of thousands of years. Star Wars can get a bit of slack for its 5 millennia.

[AstralFire]

I suppose it kind of leaves me with the feel of "why not run a game 40 years before the prequels instead of giving me a promise of a radically different look at the Star Wars galaxy a long time ago and then robbing me of that." :|

But I like different looks on the same setting. I like watching universes evolve. Seeing Jedi with vibroblades that can't deflect bullets and meeting alien races in a way that's significant rather than cavalier, repulsortech not commonplace, but still around... The foundation of the Republic... that's what I'd like to see in a 'long ago' game. KotOR being a retread leaves me feeling cheated.

[Talya]

...What.

I've never attributed 'good writing' as one of Bioware's strengths, honestly. Mass Effect surprised me in this regard. So what you just said blew my mind there.

Bioware has the best writing of any game-maker in the business. KotOR is the best single player RPG of any genre of all time.

I have high hopes for SWTOR to break the MMO mold with it's story and personality driven design. They've already recorded more dialogue for it than all 8 seasons of The Sopranos put together.

KotOR is the nicest setting for RPGs because you're not tied down to any existing events, you don't have to worry about getting the last 4000 years of history right, and there are jedi and sith everywhere. Even clone wars can't say that...yes, there were jedi everywhere, but very few sith to pit them against.

I suppose it kind of leaves me with the feel of "why not run a game 40 years before the prequels instead of giving me a promise of a radically different look at the Star Wars galaxy a long time ago and then robbing me of that." :|

But I like different looks on the same setting. I like watching universes evolve. Seeing Jedi with vibroblades that can't deflect bullets and meeting alien races in a way that's significant rather than cavalier, repulsortech not commonplace, but still around...

That wouldn't be star wars. It's fairly well established canon...since long before the prequel movies came out or even before the Star Wars "EU" started churning out book after book, that tech in the galaxy has been stagnant for thousands...perhaps tens of thousands...of years. The civilization of the Galaxy far, far away has been in decay and decline for a long time.

[Guancyto]

Bioware has Chris Avellone, one of the best writers of any game-maker in the business except for the NWN2 incident. KotORPlanescape: Torment is the best single player RPG of any genre of all time.

Fixed that for you!

If it had been finished, KotOR II would have easily been up there (since he was the writer for it, too).

That said, KotOR was bloody fantastic, and I will be subscribing to their MMO. Between the two games, they had the epic Sith vs. Jedi and the heavily psychological, "what is a Sith? What is a Jedi?"

[deuxhero]

...What.

I've never attributed 'good writing' as one of Bioware's strengths

*Agrees with AstralFire*

I think it has something to do with reasonably being able to have large numbers of sith/jedi run around and fight eachother.

[Talya]

Fixed that for you!

If it had been finished, KotOR II would have easily been up there (since he was the writer for it, too).

That said, KotOR was bloody fantastic, and I will be subscribing to their MMO.

Bioware wasn't directly involved in NWN2 or KotOR2, but I assume you meant the writer was the same anyway.

And yes, it's possible KotOR2 would have been better if they'd finished it. It's hard to say. The gameplay was certainly better, if not the storyline. The villains were incomprehensible to me in KotOR2. Malak was someone I could understand. Nihilus, Sion, and Traya, not so much.

[Deepblue706]

KotOR is the best single player RPG of any genre of all time.

Deus Ex would like to have a word with you.

Anyway, I like the KotOR era because I find it less annoying as compared to the time the movies span through. Mostly because I find all of the movies, except The Empire Strikes Back, to be bad. Although, I accept the original (despite my feelings of the soundtrack being the only reason it's entertaining), since you can't have a good sequel without first beginning somewhere.

But yeah. KotOR lets me ignore all of the stuff I dislike about Star Wars (the attempts at writing) but keep the stuff I enjoy (Lightsabers, The Force and Spaceships).

[Guancyto]

Bioware wasn't directly involved in NWN2 or KotOR2, but I assume you meant the writer was the same anyway.

And yes, it's possible KotOR2 would have been better if they'd finished it. It's hard to say. The gameplay was certainly better, if not the storyline. The villains were incomprehensible to me in KotOR2. Malak was someone I could understand. Nihilus, Sion, and Traya, not so much.

Yeah, that's what I meant. Sorry, wasn't clear.

Malak was easy. "Crush, kill, destroy, crush, crush!"

I must've played through the sequel a dozen times and still generally picked up something interesting about one of the villains that I hadn't noticed before.

It is mostly the strength of the writing (whether "We are tropes, we shall battle! JUSTICE!" or the sequel) that made the KotOR setting, though, and I hear the SW RP sourcebooks related to it were made of awesome as well.

[Erts]

But yeah. KotOR lets me ignore all of the stuff I dislike about Star Wars (the attempts at writing) but keep the stuff I enjoy (Lightsabers, The Force and Spaceships).

Exactly the same for me.

KotOR, and its sequel are more, well, EPIC.

The Star Forge, the villians are scarier, (in retrospect, Palpatine was the only good villian of the entire original series,) you have cooler moves, etc.
Its a video game rather than a movie, and it has plot.

[Talya]

Deus Ex would like to have a word with you.

I got bored and didn't finish it. I don't consider a shooter an RPG, and I've played other shooters with (at the very least) more immediately engaging storylines. (Anything by Monolith, in fact. <3 NOLF, NOLF2, AvP2, and Tron2.0. Not to mention FEAR.)

[Deepblue706]

I got bored and didn't finish it. I don't consider a shooter an RPG, and I've played other shooters with (at the very least) more immediately engaging storylines. (Anything by Monolith, in fact. <3 NOLF, NOLF2, AvP2, and Tron2.0. Not to mention FEAR.)

Shooter? Then is Mass Effect also not an RPG?

[Reverent-One]

The Star Forge, the villians are scarier, (in retrospect, Palpatine was the only good villian of the entire original series,)

Wait, what...? I find your lack of Darth Vader disturbing.

(Anything by Monolith, in fact. <3 NOLF, NOLF2, AvP2, and Tron2.0. Not to mention FEAR.)

Freaking love that game. Like I can't even describe it. It is just made of win and awesome.

[13_CBS]

I think Talya's touched on something:

The Old Republic, particularly around and a few decades before the KotOR series, is when you've got lots of jedi AND sith running around.

The problem with games in the Clone Wars is that, obviously, everything is overshadowed by the Clone Wars, which is mostly about jedi and clones duking it out with droids. Ever since the Battle of Ruusan, it's always been only 2 Sith, so it's pretty difficult to have you fight lots of Sith when there's only, well, two.

But by setting the timeline waaay back before Ruusan, when jedi and Sith were really going at each other, you not only have a very good excuse to be a jedi (there's lots of them, so why can't you simply be one?), but you also have a good excuse to go after the Sith. Not just any dark siders a la the Reborn from Jedi Outcast and Academy (fine games they were, though the dialogue could have used some work), but the real Sith themselves--the pre-Ruusan era Old Republic is the time when you get to fight through Darth X's minions and shove a lightsaber up his arse. Any time past that and it's simply not possible--you're fighting dark side cultists, maybe, or some renegade jedi, plus loads of stormtroopers, but no "real" Sith.

KotOR lets you do just that.

Edit: Talya, your tastes in FPS games (NOLF, NOLF2, AvP2) is par none, madam.

[Anxe]

Because during the other eras the players can screw up "historical" events. That's why I did my campaign of Star Wars in the Old Republic. Also nobody knows what the hell is going on in New Republic.

I suppose it kind of leaves me with the feel of "why not run a game 40 years before the prequels instead of giving me a promise of a radically different look at the Star Wars galaxy a long time ago and then robbing me of that." :|

That's what I did.