Nolzur's Marvelous Pigments

[Vaynor]

I'm sure this has been thought out before, but if you buy a set of Nolzur's Marvelous Pigments (who wouldn't, it pays for itself) is there anything stopping you from making 1000 cubic feet of spyglasses? Spyglasses (quick research done, correct me if I'm wrong) are roughly 1 foot long when extended, and judging by the picture in the PHB can be retracted to half that length. We'll say they're about two inches thick (to be on the safe side). This means that a cubic foot of retracted spyglasses equals roughly 72 spyglasses (Note: I'm terrible at math).

This means you can create roughly 72,000 spyglasses (1,000 cubic feet * 72) using a single pot of pigment. As a single spyglass has a sale price of 1,000, and we're reducing it by half because we're selling it (not sure if this rule applies but hey, it's not like I'm losing money comparatively), we can sell each of them for about 500 gp. 72,000 spyglasses * 500 gp each = 36,000,000 gp. Thirty-six million. And it only cost me 4,000 gp.

The rules on the pigment are a little fuzzy, but I'm pretty sure it would take about 500 days to make this many telescopes, but at a rate of 72,000 gp per day, that's not even a problem.

Are there any flaws here that I'm missing?

[PairO'Dice Lost]

Are there any flaws here that I'm missing?

So far as I can see, only the fact that drawing 144 spyglasses a day is going to get boring quick. Otherwise, it looks like it works perfectly.

[Zeta Kai]

Well, to quote the SRD on the matter:

The user can create normal weapons, armor, and any other mundane item (including foodstuffs) whose value does not exceed 2,000 gp.

I'd interpret that to mean that it can only create 2,000 gold piece's worth of stuff. Therefore, you can only create 2 spyglasses, since I'd also interpret the rules to apply to the purchasing price, not the selling price. Sorry, but if a DM lets you get away with shenanigans like that, then you've found an idiot, & should move on.

[Vaynor]

I'd interpret that to mean that it can only create 2,000 gold piece's worth of stuff. Therefore, you can only create 2 spyglasses, since I'd also interpret the rules to apply to the purchasing price, not the selling price. Sorry, but if a DM lets you get away with shenanigans like that, then you've found an idiot, & should move on.

Well I guess it's a matter of RAI vs. RAW then. Because as written, it states that any object made cannot exceed 2,000 gp in value.

[arguskos]

Well I guess it's a matter of RAI vs. RAW then. Because as written, it states that any object made cannot exceed 2,000 gp in value.

No, it's not a RAI vs RAW issue, it's a badly written line of text that can be parsed two ways. One allows your exploit, and the other is more reasonable. Either way, we can all agree it's a badly written line of text, and needs to be clarified, yeah?

[PairO'Dice Lost]

I'd interpret that to mean that it can only create 2,000 gold piece's worth of stuff. Therefore, you can only create 2 spyglasses, since I'd also interpret the rules to apply to the purchasing price, not the selling price. Sorry, but if a DM lets you get away with shenanigans like that, then you've found an idiot, & should move on.

Well, it says "any other mundane item whose value does not exceed 2000gp," not "any other mundane items whose combined value does not exceed 2000gp," so I'd say he could create the spyglasses with no problem. Selling them for anything would pose a problem, of course, and is where a DM would step in with market price issues and such, but the actual act of creation seems perfectly legitimate if you have need for a few thousand spyglasses.

[Vaynor]

Well, it says "any other mundane item whose value does not exceed 2000gp," not "any other mundane items whose combined value does not exceed 2000gp," so I'd say he could create the spyglasses with no problem. Selling them for anything would pose a problem, of course, and is where a DM would step in with market price issues and such, but the actual act of creation seems perfectly legitimate if you have need for a few thousand spyglasses.

Heh, I might flood the market with spyglasses, reducing the value. I'd probably need a spellcaster to teleport around selling them to various places.

[Darrin]

No, it's not a RAI vs RAW issue, it's a badly written line of text that can be parsed two ways. One allows your exploit, and the other is more reasonable. Either way, we can all agree it's a badly written line of text, and needs to be clarified, yeah?

This has come up before, both here and on the WotC boards, but my google-fu has not revealed any official rulings or clarifications. However, the majority sentiment on this skews pretty heavily toward a total 2000 GP limit for all items rather than 2000 GP limit per item.

That being said, even with a 2000 GP total limit, the Marvelous Pigments are still one of the most useful items in the game. And yes, there are a couple money-making schemes, but most reasonable DMs will shut them down. For example:

Create 2000 GP of raw materials. Use the Craft skill to turn them into 6000 GP of manufactured goods. Trade those for another set of Marvelous Pigments + 2000 GP, repeat as necessary. This has several problems: very long craft times, you can possibly just sell the pigments for 4000 GP of raw materials instead of using them, the DM may insist you can only sell equipment back for 50% of the book price, or worse, declare the market saturated and drop the price of goods even further (say hello to Adam Smith's Forceful Hand of Biyotch-Slap).

There's also some trick involving Astral Projection, but I'm not sure how it works... I think you use the astral copy of the pigments to create 2000 GP of stuff, while the original pigments remain unspent. Net profit: 1000 GP (or 2000 GP if you find a way around the 1000 GP material component).

Now, if you abandon the money-making schemes, this is still one of a few items that will completely ruin a carefully crafted dungeon and have your DM weeping into his own personal bowl of watery death. (The other item is Gloves of Object Reading.) You can create doors, tunnels, even lava pits. However, you still have to keep track of the GP cost, and redecorating can get expensive in a hurry. For example, a 10' x 10' pit costs about 500 GP, based on the prices for pit traps in the DMG/Stronghold Builder's Guide (60' uncovered pit = 6000 GP). You can save some money by making smaller 5'x5' pits or creating 5'x5' cubes of packed earth (burrowable via Wildshape and/or Summon Natures Ally: Dire Badger). Some costs for 5'x5' cubes of various materials:

Stone (hewn, as via wall of stone) 750 GP
Lava (as via transmute rock to lava) 191.25 GP
Ice (as via wall of ice) 87.5 GP
Pit (i.e., empty cavity carved into stone) 62.5 GP
Packed Earth (burrowable) 12.5 GP

In addition to that, you can use the pigments to make alchemical items. A couple vials of stonebreaker acid (A&EG, 5d10 damage to stone objects, ignores hardness) in the right spot might be more effective than digging a tunnel. Forgot to bring your ghost touch weapon? Paint up some ghostblight (CAdv).

The real value of the pigments is it's like a blank check. Anything you can think of that is non-magical and under 2000 GP can be at your fingertips with a little planning and ingenuity. The DM is going to have a difficult time anticipating exactly what you'll create, so if you think fast or have plenty of time to prepare, you can often circumvent any obstacle he can throw at you.

[Vaynor]

This has come up before, both here and on the WotC boards, but my google-fu has not revealed any official rulings or clarifications. However, the majority sentiment on this skews pretty heavily toward a total 2000 GP limit for all items rather than 2000 GP limit per item.

That being said, even with a 2000 GP total limit, the Marvelous Pigments are still one of the most useful items in the game. And yes, there are a couple money-making schemes, but most reasonable DMs will shut them down. For example:

Create 2000 GP of raw materials. Use the Craft skill to turn them into 6000 GP of manufactured goods. Trade those for another set of Marvelous Pigments + 2000 GP, repeat as necessary. This has several problems: very long craft times, you can possibly just sell the pigments for 4000 GP of raw materials instead of using them, the DM may insist you can only sell equipment back for 50% of the book price, or worse, declare the market saturated and drop the price of goods even further (say hello to Adam Smith's Forceful Hand of Biyotch-Slap).

There's also some trick involving Astral Projection, but I'm not sure how it works... I think you use the astral copy of the pigments to create 2000 GP of stuff, while the original pigments remain unspent. Net profit: 1000 GP (or 2000 GP if you find a way around the 1000 GP material component).

Now, if you abandon the money-making schemes, this is still one of a few items that will completely ruin a carefully crafted dungeon and have your DM weeping into his own personal bowl of watery death. (The other item is Gloves of Object Reading.) You can create doors, tunnels, even lava pits. However, you still have to keep track of the GP cost, and redecorating can get expensive in a hurry. For example, a 10' x 10' pit costs about 500 GP, based on the prices for pit traps in the DMG/Stronghold Builder's Guide (60' uncovered pit = 6000 GP). You can save some money by making smaller 5'x5' pits or creating 5'x5' cubes of packed earth (burrowable via Wildshape and/or Summon Natures Ally: Dire Badger). Some costs for 5'x5' cubes of various materials:

Stone (hewn, as via wall of stone) 750 GP
Lava (as via transmute rock to lava) 191.25 GP
Ice (as via wall of ice) 87.5 GP
Pit (i.e., empty cavity carved into stone) 62.5 GP
Packed Earth (burrowable) 12.5 GP

In addition to that, you can use the pigments to make alchemical items. A couple vials of stonebreaker acid (A&EG, 5d10 damage to stone objects, ignores hardness) in the right spot might be more effective than digging a tunnel. Forgot to bring your ghost touch weapon? Paint up some ghostblight (CAdv).

From my interpretation, the GP limit only applies to items created. Making a doorway or a pit doesn't seem to be affected by the limit. It appears to only affect "normal weapons, armor, and any other mundane item (including foodstuffs)".

[Coidzor]

Can one create gems with this magical item? If so, then there might just be a ~500-2000 gp gemstone that could be produced which would probably be more liquidable than spyglasses. And the whole resurrection spell component thing...

[Vaynor]

Can one create gems with this magical item? If so, then there might just be a ~500-2000 gp gemstone that could be produced which would probably be more liquidable than spyglasses. And the whole resurrection spell component thing...

I think it says specifically that gemstones and other valuable items don't work.

[Ravens_cry]

I think it says specifically that gemstones and other valuable items don't work.

Objects of value depicted by the pigments —precious metals, gems, jewelry, ivory, and so on— appear to be valuable but are really made of tin, lead, paste, brass, bone, and other such inexpensive materials

Wonderous Pigments.
Still, you might get something for them anyway.
Why?
Two words.
Bluff. Check.
As for the spyglass exploit, it seems perfectly legitimate to me, Rules as Written. But this is why the gods invented DM's.

[Vaynor]

As for the spyglass exploit, it seems perfectly legitimate to me, Rules as Written. But this is why the gods invented DM's.

Oh yes, I know it would never actually work. I was just curious if it was even a viable option via RAW.

[bosssmiley]

The rules on the pigment are a little fuzzy, but I'm pretty sure it would take about 500 days to make this many telescopes, but at a rate of 72,000 gp per day, that's not even a problem.

Are there any flaws here that I'm missing?

You mean other than the fact you've just crashed the market for telescopes and the Guild of Lensgrinders has put an absurdly large bounty on your head?

Consult your DM. If he starts doing the psycho Cheshire Cat evil DM grin then say it was a purely theoretical thought and go back to wish farming.

[Darrin]

From my interpretation, the GP limit only applies to items created. Making a doorway or a pit doesn't seem to be affected by the limit. It appears to only affect "normal weapons, armor, and any other mundane item (including foodstuffs)".

I'm not comfortable with that interpretation. In my game, I use the GP tally, which to my mind seems less of a hassle than trying to figure out the square footage of every item.

If you have a DM that is willing to give you a 2000 GP max per item, then you'll probably get more bang for your buck with poison. Vials are very small and can get very expensive. For example: Deathblade, DMG p. 297, 1800 GP. Injury DC 20, 1d6 Con/2d6 Con.

[Quietus]

I'm not comfortable with that interpretation. In my game, I use the GP tally, which to my mind seems less of a hassle than trying to figure out the square footage of every item.

If you have a DM that is willing to give you a 2000 GP max per item, then you'll probably get more bang for your buck with poison. Vials are very small and can get very expensive. For example: Deathblade, DMG p. 297, 1800 GP. Injury DC 20, 1d6 Con/2d6 Con.

So when that tally hits its limit, in theory, it's the magical equivalent of using up all your black crayon? You can still produce images, but they're going to be missing that something that makes it look real?

[Zeta Kai]

Oh yes, I know it would never actually work. I was just curious if it was even a viable option via RAW.

Technically, yes. But the munchkinism involved would break your gaming table & cause your DM to implode. Don't get any on you; it's messy.

[Darrin]

So when that tally hits its limit, in theory, it's the magical equivalent of using up all your black crayon? You can still produce images, but they're going to be missing that something that makes it look real?

No, the pigments would be used up at that point. You'd have to find/buy another set.

It's more of a convenience thing. Keeping track of GPs is somewhat easier than trying to calculate/keep track of square footage, volume, height, etc. (Although hunting through sourcebooks to find the price of really obscure items isn't exactly a time-saver, either.)

If keeping track of square footage is better for you, then by all means don't let me spoil your fun.

[Indon]

Selling them for anything would pose a problem, of course, and is where a DM would step in with market price issues and such, but the actual act of creation seems perfectly legitimate if you have need for a few thousand spyglasses.

"Ah, you want a good meal and a stay at the finest room in the inn? That'll be three spyglasses."

You mean other than the fact you've just crashed the market for telescopes and the Guild of Lensgrinders has put an absurdly large bounty on your head?

Tens of thousands of spyglasses!