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  1. - Top - End - #1
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    Default Is the Snarl an Elder Evil?

    As stated on the title, I have just read the Elder Evil book, well the first two chapters actually, and I wonder if the Snarl can be considered as an Elder Evil. If it is, does this mean that if we go solely by D&D mechanics, Oots needs to be at epic level to eliminate the threat of the Snarl, of course, an epic level party evens the battlefield against Xykon, but that's for another thread.

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    Default Re: Is the Snarl an Elder Evil?

    I think you could classify the Snarl as an Elder Evil, yes. You'll see in the book that there are all kinds, from demons and devils to simple incarnations of chaos. The origin doesn't seem to be as important as the overall alienness of the being, and the threat that it poses.
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    Default Re: Is the Snarl an Elder Evil?

    I don't think thew Snarl is an Elder Evil for a couple of reasons. First, it's not Evil, its only chaos. Its like having half of an alignment (or a 4E alignment). I don't think it even has intelligence or wants. And Ssecond, its even more powerful than any Elder Evil , it can actually kill Gods. Even epic level characters are just undone by its chaos.
    If you had to group it into a category then yes it would probably fall under Elder Evil but I think it deserves its own category, a higher category.
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    Default Re: Is the Snarl an Elder Evil?

    NO.


    The Snarl is a homebrew creature. Trying to cram it into an existing template is pointless. And we get one of these threads every week.

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    Default Re: Is the Snarl an Elder Evil?

    Quote Originally Posted by NerfTW View Post
    NO.


    The Snarl is a homebrew creature. Trying to cram it into an existing template is pointless. And we get one of these threads every week.
    Woah, I didn't expect such a strong response, I'm not trying to be a troll or anything like that, its just something I thought about after reading the book, I'm not thinking of conforming another person's original piece of work into another party's fictional universe. It was just something, I was contemplating, I doubt I can even start statting the Snarl, I know too little about D&D to do so, I have yet to reach the level the geekery thread actually deduces the stats of the characters.

    I do admire how they can do it so quickly though.

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    Default Re: Is the Snarl an Elder Evil?

    The Snarl is not evil. It's the utter essence of chaotic neutral, existing only for the sake of unmaking things.

    It is beyond an elder being, created at the dawn of time itself out of the frustration of bickering gods. It is the utter essence of divine anger, distilled into its purest form.

    It's less of an elder evil, and more of a black hole, a blight on the universe itself.
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    Default Re: Is the Snarl an Elder Evil?

    They did mention that it was growing "hateful" which could indicate malevolence. I mean it's made out of divine anger, I wouldn't assume it's necessarily neutral.
    Mind you, the behavior we've seen from it in Azure City doesn't fit with the Order of the Scribble version, but that could be because the gates are holding it.
    I'd call it an Elder Abomination, which I think I just made up. Pretty much the same, but carries greater connotations of it's alieness.

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    Default Re: Is the Snarl an Elder Evil?

    Uh guys, an Elder Evil doesn't actually need to have the "evil" alignment. Admittedly, most do, but many don't.

    This is most blatant in the form of the Leviathan.

    A sentient monster formed out of pure chaos, the Leviathan wishes to return the earth to a primodial state, as it's nature dictates. And yet, it's a chaoic neutral being, neither evil nor good. It's just a leftover of creation with some bad side effects.

    The only real qualification for the title-not the template-of Elder Evil is that the monster is powerful and will quite possibly destroy the world as we know it. Just those two, and it can start developing Signs of the Apocalypse (the Leviathan, for instance, is a sea creature, and thus it's awakening causes havoc with weather systems).
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    Default Re: Is the Snarl an Elder Evil?

    Quote Originally Posted by Leliel View Post
    Uh guys, an Elder Evil doesn't actually need to have the "evil" alignment. Admittedly, most do, but many don't.
    Oh. Okay then yeah, no reason not to call it an Elder Evil. It seems to be a fairly generic term for "powerful old nasty thing we don't want around", which fits the Snarl perfectly.

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    Default Re: Is the Snarl an Elder Evil?

    That's what I can't stand. These "signs" and rituals that get attached, and then people start looking for what the "signs" are for the Snarl.

    There are no signs. It's just a creature that destroys things. It's like asking if an asteroid heading for the planet is considered an "elder evil". No, it's just an asteroid that happens to be heading for the planet. It's not going to helpfully alert everyone by causing "signs" to appear. It's just going to hit the planet.

    Elder evil is statting out a creature that shouldn't have stats. It's just a force of nature. It would be like statting out a tornado or an asteroid.

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    Default Re: Is the Snarl an Elder Evil?

    Quote Originally Posted by NerfTW View Post
    That's what I can't stand. These "signs" and rituals that get attached, and then people start looking for what the "signs" are for the Snarl.

    There are no signs. It's just a creature that destroys things. It's like asking if an asteroid heading for the planet is considered an "elder evil". No, it's just an asteroid that happens to be heading for the planet. It's not going to helpfully alert everyone by causing "signs" to appear. It's just going to hit the planet.

    Elder evil is statting out a creature that shouldn't have stats. It's just a force of nature. It would be like statting out a tornado or an asteroid.
    The problem with this line of thought is that there is more to the Snarl than pure destruction. It's not a meteor, or a forest fire, or a volcano... it's sentient, and aware. That will have numerous implications we can't foresee yet, but already its exhibiting odd behavior (such as not setting foot outside the open rifts) that neither the characters nor we can explain.

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    Default Re: Is the Snarl an Elder Evil?

    IMO, the Snarl is a perfect fit for an Elder Evil. Some of the Elder Evils listed in the book are at least as powerful as the gods (Pandorym, for instance). The Snarl probably wasn't designed with the Elder Evil mechanics in mind, though, so it most likely will not have a sign of any kind. But I do like the idea.

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    Default Re: Is the Snarl an Elder Evil?

    The Snarl didn't step through the holes in reality either. It just eats. Redcloak's explanation, at the moment, is the only one that makes sense - it's distracted.

    The Snarl is undeniably Chaotic Evil. It hates. It kills everything. Et cetera.

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    Default Re: Is the Snarl an Elder Evil?

    Well, since it is younger than most of the gods, it wouldn't qualify as elder evil, which is often described as those the gods have replaced.
    It does fit the vague description of vague terrible off-stage power that could destroy everything if it is not stopped. But that just means we are entirely guessing about it.

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    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: Is the Snarl an Elder Evil?

    The simple answer is:

    Of course.

    If you found The Snarl (what we know about it anyway) in the book of elder evils you would have thought it was written for it. The Snarl does not just fit the description nicely, it fits the description perfectly.

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    Default Re: Is the Snarl an Elder Evil?

    The one thing you can argue the Snarl not being an Elder Evil is a lack of signs.

    Elder Evils are not necessarily older than the gods; they are ancient, but some aren't that ancient. Some Elder Evils are perfectly capable of killing gods; one (I can't remember) is mentioned as actually killing gods. Some (like Atropus) not even the gods can stop. It's possible it requires an adventurer to stop the Snarl; god-killers are often designed for that purpose, and there's times where it goes against them when mortals challenge.

    An Elder Evil is designed to challenge the gods and bring about the end of worlds or even existence. The Snarl (which I'm pretty damn sure is CE) did so in twenty-seven minutes. I think it qualifies.
    Last edited by Woodsman; 2009-07-20 at 02:03 PM.

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    Default Re: Is the Snarl an Elder Evil?

    Also, it predates the book somewhat. Though it might fit by coincidence.

    The term Elder Evil is used pretty haphazardly- Lords of Madness used it for the abstract entities the aboleths are devoted to,

    Champions of Ruin used it for very powerful outsiders like Dendar the Night Serpent and Kezef the Chaos Hound.

    So, it doesn't necessarily have to have a Sign.
    Last edited by hamishspence; 2009-07-20 at 02:02 PM.
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    Default Re: Is the Snarl an Elder Evil?

    Quote Originally Posted by bue52 View Post
    As stated on the title, I have just read the Elder Evil book, well the first two chapters actually, and I wonder if the Snarl can be considered as an Elder Evil. If it is, does this mean that if we go solely by D&D mechanics, Oots needs to be at epic level to eliminate the threat of the Snarl, of course, an epic level party evens the battlefield against Xykon, but that's for another thread.
    It undid the entire Greek Pantheon in a couple of minutes. I think that qualifies it as something greater than an elder evil.

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    DruidGuy

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    Default Re: Is the Snarl an Elder Evil?

    Quote Originally Posted by Berserk Monk View Post
    It undid the entire Greek Pantheon in a couple of minutes. I think that qualifies it as something greater than an elder evil.
    Yeah, but everyone knows the Greek gods were a bunch of sis- *Smote by thunderbolt*
    Last edited by Woodsman; 2009-07-20 at 02:23 PM.

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    Default Re: Is the Snarl an Elder Evil?

    I always considered the Snarl to fall into the catagory of "Abomination" as a creature type defined in the 3rd ed Epic Handbook. Abominations are unwanted offspring of Diefic power - and not neccisarily just born-progeny (like the mechanical construct one, forget its name - anaxiom?). I think its power level in general is probably in line with an Abomination, but this one has a special diety-slaying attribute as a consequence of its creation circumstances. If the OOTS all got to lv35+ or so, I think they could probably take it on in combat and defeat it (even the crayons of time directly implied it was far more effective at god-slaying then it would be in combat with very high-level mortals).
    Last edited by Thanatosia; 2009-07-20 at 02:38 PM.

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    Default Re: Is the Snarl an Elder Evil?

    I'd actually argue that the Snarl is lawful. It will absolutely eliminate all. No exception. No way to argue against its point. No variation.

    The Snarl has one law, and it's sticking to it: "Destroy Everything!"
    Last edited by Carteeg_Struve; 2009-07-20 at 03:16 PM.

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    Default Re: Is the Snarl an Elder Evil?

    Elder Evils are basically Abominations with Signs- they have all the traits of a basic Abomination.
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    Default Re: Is the Snarl an Elder Evil?

    Quote Originally Posted by Carteeg_Struve View Post
    I'd actually argue that the Snarl is lawful. It will absolutely eliminate all. No exception. No way to argue against its point. No variation.

    The Snarl has one law, and it's sticking to it: "Destroy Everything!"
    That's not what lawful means at all! Not even a little bit!

    Otherwise EVERYTHING would be Lawful because they followed their own codes - even if their codes were "do random stuff".

    Two-Face is not Lawful, and neither is the Snarl.

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    Default Re: Is the Snarl an Elder Evil?

    Quote Originally Posted by SadisticFishing View Post
    Otherwise EVERYTHING would be Lawful because they followed their own codes - even if their codes were "do random stuff".

    Two-Face is not Lawful, and neither is the Snarl.
    Actually, a personal code is an expressly supported flavor of lawful: the measure for that is whether or not the character actively thinks in terms of a consistent behavioral code and whether or not they are endeavoring to be true to that code.

    It seems unlikely to me that the snarl's actions consist of a code. We have no indication as such. Reacting to a raw want to consume doesn't a code.

    And it depends on who is writing Two-Face and when. The coin gimmick has been mostly dropped from the comics by a lot of authors. And when most use it, its used as a method of showing the struggle between the two warring personalities: the Harvey Dent personality can't prevent the Two-Face personality from carrying out those actions, but he can restrain him to the coin toss.

    Regardless, Harvey Dent is clearly Lawful Good. But then again, maybe I'm biased. After all, I believe in Harvey Dent.
    Last edited by Ozymandias9; 2009-07-20 at 04:19 PM.

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    Default Re: Is the Snarl an Elder Evil?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ozymandias9 View Post
    Regardless, Harvey Dent is clearly Lawful Good. But then again, maybe I'm biased. After all, I believe in Harvey Dent.
    Sure. Harvey Dent is LG. Two-Face is CE, based on how society reacts to him (also, he's a psychotic murderer). The more interesting question would be what is Batman's alignment?
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    Default Re: Is the Snarl an Elder Evil?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bibliomancer View Post
    Sure. Harvey Dent is LG. Two-Face is CE, based on how society reacts to him (also, he's a psychotic murderer). The more interesting question would be what is Batman's alignment?
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    Default Re: Is the Snarl an Elder Evil?

    Quote Originally Posted by Optimystik View Post
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    Yes. But what if we didn't allow Frank Miller to write any sort of Batman comics?
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    Default Re: Is the Snarl an Elder Evil?

    Quote Originally Posted by Optimystik View Post
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    Default Re: Is the Snarl an Elder Evil?

    Complete Scoundrel went with Lawful Good (Batman isn't above breaking minor laws, but he generally works to help the law.)

    Probably closer to the Adam West end of the spectrum than the Micheal Keaton end.
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    Default Re: Is the Snarl an Elder Evil?

    OFFTOPIC:

    BTW, what's the story behind the chocolate one anyway? Is this a superdickery thing (i.e. taken out of context)? Or is it more like a Frank Miller Weirdness thing going on?
    Last edited by Porthos; 2009-07-20 at 04:50 PM.
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