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Thread: [4e] Helping my player's rogue
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2009-07-20, 10:09 AM (ISO 8601)
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[4e] Helping my player's rogue
My group's rogue has an absolutely terrible AC. 17 at level 5. He has had plenty of opportunities to equip, but he's happy with his +1 cloth, for some reason.
Our session yesterday showed him that he needs a bump. So, I threw in a "replacement" set of leather. His Bloodcut Cloth for a Level 5 set of Leather. I dunno if he's picked anything yet, though.
Anybody have any suggestions? I'm willing to let him have a set of level 6. (He's the least optimized in the party, and he's been nerfing himself by using STR instead of DEX for his melee attacks, because he doesn't read his powers...)Check out a bunch of stuff I wrote for my campaign world of Oz.
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2009-07-20, 10:46 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [4e] Helping my player's rogue
I'm not sure what kind of AC should be expected there, just throwing Leather at him will make it 19. Yes the fighter and most certainly the paladin will have higher AC than the rogue, but that's because they're supposed to. Perhaps instead of trying to rely on AC that will always be several points lower than the defender, he should play like a striker and use mobility/positioning to keep from getting hit. He should either be hanging out near the defender so that they can keep things off of him, or he should be in the back row taking out artillery/controllers that don't usually target AC.
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2009-07-20, 10:55 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [4e] Helping my player's rogue
Level 5 will give him two points, and +1 Leather will give him another three, for a total of 15. Add DEX to that, and he should have an AC of at least 18.
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2009-07-20, 10:59 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [4e] Helping my player's rogue
you can make suggestions to what he could be doing but don't force it, being told how to play you PC is never fun. if he is happy with the cloth let it slide or reward him with more cloth
on the Str/Dex: remind him when he forgets, he should get it eventually or keep a note of what the abilities are and correct them as part of the flow of combat
Oh and Good for him on not being "optimized"Thankyou to NEOPhyte for the Techpriest Engiseer
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Ravia Del'Karro (Magos Biologis Errant)
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2009-07-20, 11:24 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [4e] Helping my player's rogue
Well, nobody in the party is optimized really, he's just the least of the bunch. He's an artful dodger with a higher strength than charisma. He's also a poor tactition, but takes suggestions poorly and it slows us down a lot when we suggest things.
He said himself at the end of the session that he was going to upgrade when they got to town. I didn't think he'd survive, until then at the current rate, so I threw him a bone. Nothing is forced, and he thanked me. But, I want to be able to make suggestions where I may. Suggestion a couple different armors will go better than suggestion he stops moving into the middle of fights. Or suggesting he get a magical ranged weapon to replace the magical short sword that he doesn't use...Check out a bunch of stuff I wrote for my campaign world of Oz.
SpoilerI am the Burley, formerly known as Burley Warlock. I got my name changed. Please remember me...
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2009-07-20, 11:27 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [4e] Helping my player's rogue
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2009-07-20, 11:27 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2006
Re: [4e] Helping my player's rogue
Do you use power cards?
Having a power card with the text all printed out, and the bonuses calculated another card for basic attacks, might help.
Note that pre-calculating everything "with combat advantage" and "with sneak attack" also helps, even if you have to do that by hand.
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2009-07-20, 11:30 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [4e] Helping my player's rogue
Ok. I agree with statement 1, no one likes being told how to play.
Statement 2 is a good suggestion, however, there comes a point where you can't sit there and explain the bonuses to someone every time (I had to do this with a couple members of one of my groups and it got really annoying. It's first grade math, people!). One suggestion I would make is to have at least one member of your group invest in the DDI character builder. While you do have to do some checking on the power cards to make sure it has the right weapon equipped, once you've done that it displays the correct total for attack and damage for each power, so all he has to do is look at the card for the power he's using and ta-da! No more math headaches. Conditional bonuses you may still need to remind him of, but those won't cripple his attacks if forgotten.
As for statement 3, that is not a sentiment I would view as positive. 4th edition, more than any other tabletop RPG, pretty much requires at least some level of optimization. It's not hard to do because a lot of it is marked with big glowing signs for you, but if you don't put at least a little effort into making your characters good at what they do it really drags the game down for you and everyone else, because you just won't be effective. This is why the OP is requesting help, and a player should not be praised for playing badly.Last edited by Grynning; 2009-07-20 at 11:32 AM.
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A Guide to Commonly Misunderstood 5th Edition Rules
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2009-07-20, 11:37 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [4e] Helping my player's rogue
Okay, I don't mind playing suboptimal characters, but what we have here is someone who refuses to use basic tactics, which is a problem.
He's a rogue. He knows he's squishy because he's only wearing cloth armor, which is basically normal clothing. And yet he rushes blindly into battle despite this?
Tell him to stop being a Leeroy before he gets the party killed. It's hard to change his stats, but it doesn't take much to have him change his tactics.
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2009-07-20, 11:44 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [4e] Helping my player's rogue
His level of Optimization is not whats slowing them down from what i read, the player doesn't play well tactically and doesn't take suggestions well
He could have the most tricked out optimal PC and still have issues
As to needing to optimize no, not really from the little that Ive experienced of 4e, playing badly and playing a optimal PC are separate thingsLast edited by Leon; 2009-07-20 at 11:44 AM.
Thankyou to NEOPhyte for the Techpriest Engiseer
Spoiler
Current PC's
Ravia Del'Karro (Magos Biologis Errant)
Katarina (Ordo Malleus Interrogator)
Emberly (Fire Elemental former Chef)
Peril Planet
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2009-07-20, 11:53 AM (ISO 8601)
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2009-07-20, 12:00 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [4e] Helping my player's rogue
re: optimizing
There's non-optimized characters, which aren't necessarily a bad thing and can be a refreshing change of pace. Then there's characters that are downright bad. His official secondary stat is lower than his STR - which would rarely, if ever be used at all - and he's using cloth armor as a class designed for leather?
re: the player himself
He needs to read his powers. There is absolutely no excuse not to know what stat it says to use. Having trouble with the math is one thing, but not to know that he's supposed to use DEX and not STR?Last edited by Artanis; 2009-07-20 at 12:01 PM.
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2009-07-20, 12:07 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [4e] Helping my player's rogue
We will take steps to double check his character through the character creater, now that my PC is fixed. I will also make him, and the rest of my group, a set of power cards.
Sorry to interrupt your derailment, but I haven't gotten an actual answer about which magic armors I could suggest.
There is no sense in arguing about the playstyle of somebody you've never met.Check out a bunch of stuff I wrote for my campaign world of Oz.
SpoilerI am the Burley, formerly known as Burley Warlock. I got my name changed. Please remember me...
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2009-07-20, 12:22 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [4e] Helping my player's rogue
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Kicking this LP into overdrive: Let's Play StarCraft 2!
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2009-07-20, 12:23 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [4e] Helping my player's rogue
All I've got is the PHB at the moment, but I'll put in for Deathcut or Sylvan leather. Sylvan for the bonus to Athletics and Stealth, and Deathcut because constant damage reduction (against necrotic and poison) is easy to keep track of and can be very helpful. Plus, as you climb levels, it's fun to collect resistances to as many things as you can find.
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2009-07-20, 01:01 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [4e] Helping my player's rogue
Check out a bunch of stuff I wrote for my campaign world of Oz.
SpoilerI am the Burley, formerly known as Burley Warlock. I got my name changed. Please remember me...
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2009-07-20, 01:14 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [4e] Helping my player's rogue
Was he wearing cloth for flavor reasons? Because you can make him happy via re-flavoring if that's the case. Just have an encounter drop an item that looks similar to the outfit he has (clothing, robes, w/e) and when he asks what the stats are, just say that it's a special (magic, extraplanar, whatever) cloth that grants +2 to AC like leather, and has the magic properties of whatever suit you're giving him. I know that seems kind of obvious but no one had brought it up yet.
As far as the actual type of armor, none of the +1 leather armors are really bad for a rogue. I would say just pick one you think sounds cool (this player seems like they go for style over substance, a neat name may be all it takes for them to like it). If you want to give him +2 armor there's only 2 level 6 choices (magic and summoned), and the level 7 ones start to have some nifty powers that might make other players jealous.My friend and I have a blog, we write D&D stuff there: http://forgotmydice.com/
Comedian avatar by The_Stoney_One
A Guide to Commonly Misunderstood 5th Edition Rules
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2009-07-20, 01:53 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [4e] Helping my player's rogue
Ooo, summoned leather could work wonders. It is armor that looks like cloth, until combat, where it pops into place.
And mechanically, leather+2 is probably better for an under-AC character.
Reverse engineering:
17 at level 5 in Cloth+1
10 + 2 (level) +1 (cloth) +4 (dex) = 17. Ok that is on track.
Putting them in summoned leather boost this to:
10 + 2 + 4 + 4 = 20 AC.
That moves the character from being 12+L AC to being 15+L AC. Back 'on track'. And the item (leather that disappears at will) is fun. As a bonus, you can let the character keep their cloth armor -- and say that the cloth armor isn't usable while the leather armor is 'deployed' as the magics interfere.