[Magic] Am I the only person who finds it tedious?

[Kiero]

Whenever I see a new RPG, I tend to skip the magic section. I have no interest in it whatsoever. I don't want to play a mage in any game (Jedi are a possible exception), because magic tends to be fiddly and over-complicated. Not only that, mages always seem to be reliant on their magic to the exclusion of everything else; playing a weedy runt really doesn't appeal to me. Give me a character with mundane skills who smacks things with weapons any day.

I don't see spells lists and think "wow, look at all the options", I think "ugh, I don't want to have to learn all that crap". The longer time goes on, the less interesting magic seems to me. I think it's one of the reasons I prefer a Sword and Sorcery flavour to my fantasy.

It's one of those things that puts me off GMing fantasy to a degree, because I know I'm going to be called upon to throw in spellcasting enemies, which means dealing with all the crud. I find GMing magic almost as boring as playing it. Whether it's D&D's spells, Exalted's Charms, or any number of other systems with their lengthy "powers", it's all the same to me. Feng Shui is quite novel in how simple it's magic system is (in contrast to the stupidly over-complicated Fu powers...).

There's a few exceptions. Psionics, in the style of Ravenor's Wizard's Duel is kind of cool. And different from the boring blue bolts of energy of the 40k wargame. Jedi powers, as long as they're not too granular can work. Magic as presented in Steven Erikson's Malazan Empire series is kind of cool too. But D&D-style shopping lists, bleh.

[elliott20]

It's funny, while I don't mind GMing spell caster NPCs in 3.5E, I would never touch any game that boasts a huge list of spells. I just can't... for the very reason you just named. I just can't be bothered to study the whole system, and come up with ways to optimize each and every option. If no community exists to help me learn this stuff, you can pretty much forget the system all together.

This, however, is not a character issue. This is fundamentally a learning curve issue. But also, in systems that tries to mimic the 3.5 approach (or rather, a huge laundry list of abilities approach), you'll end up with characters who while might have all these interesting powers, if you want them to do something specific, you're gonna be spending HOURS combing through the books to find one that fits. (And for the love god just hope that it does or else you're pulling out your homebrew folder and adding some entries to the list)

[Kaiyanwang]

I wouldn't see the thing in that way. magic can be a fantastic tool for any game.

Anyway, about one thing I can agree: It's not mandatory. Even with D&D, you could think a setting with only mundane classes.

Of course, you would work about a lot of things, and be aware that things previously trivial would became dangerous. The d8 healing herb in that FR splatbook would become from sometimes useful to very useful, expecialli at low levels.

[Killer Angel]

Whenever I see a new RPG, I tend to skip the magic section. I have no interest in it whatsoever.

Give me a character with mundane skills who smacks things with weapons any day.

I think it's one of the reasons I prefer a Sword and Sorcery flavour to my fantasy.

Have you ever tried "Conan - the rpg" (moongoose publishing)?
It should suit very well your play-style.

[Strawman]

A well designed magic system is a fun one that allows players to do things that they normally would not be able to.

A badly designed system is one that chains a magic-using character to their spells. If a person has to use the same spells over and over again (magic missile, acid arrow, fireball, etc) he or she will get bored. Add in the tedium of learning and remembering mundane details about the spells (range in feet, turns to wear off) and many people will want to avoid the magic-using characters.

Personally, whenever I feel like magic is being used to break the rules without breaking the game, I enjoy it. Creativity and freedom are the bread and butter of any good magic system.

[AslanCross]

I prefer melee to casting, but I don't mind running caster encounters. In fact, I love running them. I like the looks on the players' faces when the caster pulls something they totally didn't expect. If there's anything I find tedious, it's running an encounter where every single monster is a melee brute. The only variety between the monsters tends to be "This is dangerous" and "This is cannon fodder."

[Zeta Kai]

Well, in the World of Darkness (specifically in Mage: the Ascension (old WoD) or Mage: the Awakening (new WoD)), there are no spell lists, & you can be a big strong spellcaster, if you wanna be. Or a sneaky one, or a religious one, or a technomancy one, or whatever your want. The magic system is freeform & very complex, with a lot of whaddaya-wanna-do & howdoya-wanna-do-it back & forth with your storyteller. It's not for novices, but it's the most fun I've ever had being a mage, as a player.

[Kiero]

I wouldn't see the thing in that way. magic can be a fantastic tool for any game.

Anyway, about one thing I can agree: It's not mandatory. Even with D&D, you could think a setting with only mundane classes.

The bigger issue is that most players expect magic. Sure you could run a low- or no-magic game, but I doubt most people would want to play in it.

Have you ever tried "Conan - the rpg" (moongoose publishing)?
It should suit very well your play-style.

It's D20, I don't have much time the system.

Well, in the World of Darkness (specifically in Mage: the Ascension (old WoD) or Mage: the Awakening (new WoD)), there are no spell lists, & you can be a big strong spellcaster, if you wanna be. Or a sneaky one, or a religious one, or a technomancy one, or whatever your want. The magic system is freeform & very complex, with a lot of whaddaya-wanna-do & howdoya-wanna-do-it back & forth with your storyteller. It's not for novices, but it's the most fun I've ever had being a mage, as a player.

I've played oMage, rotes are spell lists by another name. That still had a toolkit approach to putting effects together, even if there's more negotiation involved.

[Kaiyanwang]

The bigger issue is that most players expect magic. Sure you could run a low- or no-magic game, but I doubt most people would want to play in it.

Point taken. Maybe no-magic is for a one shot, but in the long road, you are very likely to be right.

[oxinabox]

Magic as presented in Steven Erikson's Malazan Empire

Do you know how obscenely complicated magic Steven Erikson's Malazan Empire is?

It's awesome, but by no means simple. I'm working on a system for it.

Just looking warrens for a start:
Opening a warren, (warrens must be opened to be cast from) needs to be a action (free, standard move or otherwise)
Closing one also.
There needs to be penalty ascosiated with keeping them open.

not to mention Denul HEalers exist both as a Healer (mullet) (which is almost a warrior, perfectly fine soldier, i'ld say cleric) who cast magic similarly to mages - with warrens, but have no knowledge of how magic works outside there warren, they can hardly take a guess at it.

But mages can also use Denul to heal, eg Teyschen (sp?)

and many mages have many warrens, some can have multiple open and cast from atone (quickben = soulsplice too).

Then there is the difernce between priest and mages... is there one? who knows?
a priest of fener can ascess his warren but no mage can.
a priest of minas seems to act just like a mage.

then theres the menis/rashan debarkle:
Is menis Rashan?... actually it depends on belife system:
in seven cities the belive menis is rashan and can cast on throuigh the other.
in genabakis and ite kon (sp?) there speerate, and the ability to do menes =ilisions is new.

But what bellongs ot what?
Rashan is shadow stepping, meins is illusions.
But which is the binding of demons from the warren of shadow?
what is the warren of shadow? it's part of a broken warren which expelains the most of the debarkle.
But rashan is decened from darkness not shadow... or is it?

then there Arval Gral. more demons.

and Thyr!
It has no defined uses (if you accept Gardens of the moon as cannon which many don't, than it can create sheilds and make a high warren for transport)
towards the latter books is discribe as being related to illisions, contrary to what many practioner's of thyr think (what ever that means).

and that's just warrens.
don't forget spirit/warlock magic, tile of the hold, the singing one (that can cause ascendancy) tanto spiritwalker IRRC.


One thing i have worked out how to do neatly is the deck of dragons.
it's simply a feat, min lvl 4.

[Yuki Akuma]

Well, in the World of Darkness (specifically in Mage: the Ascension (old WoD) or Mage: the Awakening (new WoD)), there are no spell lists, & you can be a big strong spellcaster, if you wanna be. Or a sneaky one, or a religious one, or a technomancy one, or whatever your want. The magic system is freeform & very complex, with a lot of whaddaya-wanna-do & howdoya-wanna-do-it back & forth with your storyteller. It's not for novices, but it's the most fun I've ever had being a mage, as a player.

So have you not played Mage: the Awakening ever or what?

The book is twice as thick as the other two "core" splats - because half the damn book consists of spell lists.

[Kiero]

Do you know how obscenely complicated magic Steven Erikson's Malazan Empire is?

It's awesome, but by no means simple. I'm working on a system for it.

Whoa, who's talking about using a D20 system for it? It's very simple with FATE/SotC.

[The Rose Dragon]

So have you not played Mage: the Awakening ever or what?

The book is twice as thick as the other two "core" splats - because half the damn book consists of spell lists.

Also, isn't Mage: The Awakening oWoD and Mage: The Ascension nWoD?

[Yuki Akuma]

Also, isn't Mage: The Awakening oWoD and Mage: The Ascension nWoD?

Not at all, no.

[Kiero]

Also, isn't Mage: The Awakening oWoD and Mage: The Ascension nWoD?

Other way around. And there's three editions of Ascension.

[shadow_archmagi]

I like magic. I see big, vast, complicated systems and think "OM NOM NOM DATA DOWNLOAD INITIATING ESTIMATE TIME REMAINING SIX HOURS NO WAIT TWO MINUTES NO WAIT TWO WEEKS NO WAIT IT'S DONE"


I like playing scrawny little mages; in a group of barbarians and rangers and paladins, I'm weak in the exact areas everyone else is strong, but I'm strong in areas that no one else even thought of.

[Saph]

Yeah, I love playing mages, so I can't really relate.

I suspect I'd find a no-options magic system very boring, because there just wouldn't be enough mechanical variety. I like having big spell lists and coming up with odd combos.

- Saph

[The Rose Dragon]

Not at all, no.

Hmm, what do you know? There are nWoD games that do end with "-ing".

Is it any good, at least?

[PairO'Dice Lost]

I like magic. I see big, vast, complicated systems and think "OM NOM NOM DATA DOWNLOAD INITIATING ESTIMATE TIME REMAINING SIX HOURS NO WAIT TWO MINUTES NO WAIT TWO WEEKS NO WAIT IT'S DONE"

I agree with the general sentiment, if not the particular method of data acquisition. I like magic because of all the ways you can accomplish it, all the effects it can have on a setting, mechanical expressions of flavor, and that sort of thing. I think I might be one of the few people who actually likes Vancian casting, because of all the implications it has for society (easily repeatable, easily accessed magic is world-changing) and because it's different from all of the "Here's spell points and a way to spend them" systems.

Granted, if you just take a random system of magic and plop it down in a setting without regard for consequences, the way many people play D&D as just "the Middle Ages plus magic and dragons," then I can see why magic would be tedious and boring. If you really integrate it into the setting, though, it can be fantastic in every sense of the word.

[The Rose Dragon]

I agree with the general sentiment, if not the particular method of data acquisition.

Hey, it takes around an hour to download Exalted 2nd Edition and it has little actual sorcery in it.

Book of Sorcery II takes around ten minutes and contains much, much more sorcery than the core rulebook has.

((Some of us download our .pdf's legally, after all.))

By the way, what constitutes a magic system? For all I know, the entire Powers chapter of Mutants & Masterminds is magic, but it doesn't have to be.

[Yrcrazypa]

I'm playing a caster that is far from weedy in NWN2 (hey, I enjoy it) on a persistent world server, and so far I have had to act as the guy who takes all the damage, even though as of right now I am only 10th level, and a wizard/rogue/arcane trickster. Built right, casters can be powerful at flinging spells, and can act as a beatstick. And this caster? He can do rogue things very nearly as well as a straight rogue.

Fun character to play in groups when other people can support him, but as of right now he doesn't have all the necessary things to be amazing at everything (IE equipment.)

As limiting as NWN2 is, his build is very flexible, which one thing I always love to have is flexibility.

Trying to play a straight caster though? Very tedious, since you have to worry about so many more things than even my multiclass wizard/rogue, because most of the time all he does is buff and bash. With throwing a few other spells here and there in sticky situations.

[Yuki Akuma]

Hmm, what do you know? There are nWoD games that do end with "-ing".

Is it any good, at least?

It is pretty good, yes. Even though half the book is spell lists, the magic system is surprisingly flexible.

[The Rose Dragon]

It is pretty good, yes. Even though half the book is spell lists, the magic system is surprisingly flexible.

Which one is better, then: Ascension or Awakening?

[AslanCross]

I forgot to add. I've actually played a high-level caster (Lv 18 Wizard/Cleric/Geometer/Silver Flame Pyromancer).

Yes, it was tedious. The Book of Geometry that the Geometer gets wasn't anywhere enough to contain all the spells that a Wizard with the Elf Wizard substitution level and Collegiate Wizard gets. I had to buy a Blessed Book when I generated my character.

I had to actually study every single spell I chose and figure out how to properly Metamagic my spells so they'd be more effective. It was a very cerebral process. It was hard, but honestly, I enjoyed it for all its tedium. My high-level paladin was much more frustrating to play due to her being useless in a lot of battles.

By contrast I find running casters as a DM way easier. The caster is typically only expected to fight one battle. Using up all of one's spells is typically the way an NPC caster should fight, since all of the spells prepared/chosen are combat-oriented and he doesn't need to worry about saving some for later.

[Tengu_temp]

I like magic because I like options in combat, and in many RPGs playing a character with spellcasting or other special powers is the only way to have options significantly more varied than moving around, auto-attacking with your weapon, and using items from time to time.

Also, I find it quite amusing how Kiero says that all casters are weedy runts, and mentions Exalted and its charms two paragraphs later.

[The Rose Dragon]

Also, I find it quite amusing how Kiero says that all casters are weedy runts, and mentions Exalted and its charms two paragraphs later.

Does that amusement include how Twilights, the most common sorcerers, get a damage reducing anima power or is it amusing enough without it?

[Tengu_temp]

Actually, from my experience 90% of sorcerers in Exalted are weedy runts. It's just that using charms is enough to qualify as a caster, even though there's a high chance you're a powerful warrior clad in golden armor and wielding what can only be described as a sharpened industrial girder.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

Hey, it takes around an hour to download Exalted 2nd Edition and it has little actual sorcery in it.

Book of Sorcery II takes around ten minutes and contains much, much more sorcery than the core rulebook has.

((Some of us download our .pdf's legally, after all.))

I was referring to the part about yelling "OM NOM NOM DATA DOWNLOAD" when reading the spells; I prefer PDFs over hardcover myself, since I can't fit many physical books in my dorm room. If you insist on saying OM NOM NOM when you click the download button, I can't fault you for that.

By the way, what constitutes a magic system? For all I know, the entire Powers chapter of Mutants & Masterminds is magic, but it doesn't have to be.

D&D has a magic system, the Force is a magic system, Mage has a magic system. If there's a mechanical way to represent bashing the laws of physics upside the head, and it's believable and internally consistent, it's a magic system. Basically, it includes pretty much everything you'd think of when you think of "magic" except the various magic-works-however-is-most-relevant-to-the-plot approaches occasionally seen in LotR, the Shannara books, Eragon, etc.--not that I want to lump in the latter two ripoffs with Tolkien, of course, but in all of those cases magic does whatever is right for the story, whether because it's meant to be mysterious and awe-inspiring or because the author is pulling it out of...ahem, thin air.

[The Rose Dragon]

Actually, from my experience 90% of sorcerers in Exalted are weedy runts. It's just that using charms is enough to qualify as a caster, even though there's a high chance you're a powerful warrior clad in golden armor and wielding what can only be described as a sharpened industrial girder.

Well, weedy runt is a relative term. Even a dedicated sorcerer can be a melee killing machine when facing a group of mortals. Then again, they are mortals. Unless they are using the Mass Combat rules and / or cheating, their greatest narrative role is to fall like leaves in autumn.

Though Solar charms are not really caster-level Charms. At least by the D&D definition of "caster". Sidereal and Dragon-blooded Elemental Charms, now those are caster-level Charms.

[Yuki Akuma]

Which one is better, then: Ascension or Awakening?

I'm going to say Awakening even though I've never played Ascension.

'Cause it uses the much-better nWoD system.