Blah, another Warlock, Hideous Blow question

[drebb]

Alright, now as a weapon-like spell, Eldritch Blast will threaten a crit on a 20.
However, let's say you're using Hideous Blow, where the attack roll is replaced with your weapon's attack roll. Easy to say if the weapon has the same crit chance.

But how would this work with, say, a short sword, or even a rapier?

One might say an 18 or 19 only threatens for the sword and not the blast, and that a 20 threatens for both. But this idea seems unsymmetrical with things like burst weapons.

What are all your thoughts?

[Flickerdart]

Seeing as how Hideous Blow, well, blows, I'd allow it to use the weapon's critical range.

[KIDS]

Since Eldritch Blast (Hideous Blow) is bonus damage like a sneak attack, I think it can't crit when used through a weapon. The weapon damage could still crit normally on its usual crit range.

p.s. but I also agree with the above poster, the ability blows a lot, so there would be no harm in allowing it to work.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

Since Eldritch Blast (Hideous Blow) is bonus damage like a sneak attack, I think it can't crit when used through a weapon. The weapon damage could still crit normally on its usual crit range.

It is extra dice, which normally isn't multiplied, but you are technically using both the blast and the weapon in conjunction, rather than adding dice on the weapon like sneak attack, so I'd say it gets multiplied as normal.

[Person_Man]

It uses the weapon's crit. But as others have pointed out, extra dice of damage aren't multiplied on a crit, and as a Standard Action Hideous Blow has very limited use beyond low levels. Consider Eldritch Glaive instead.

[drebb]

Yeah, definitely going with Eldritch Glaive when my BAB makes it more viable.

Until then, I'd like my meleelock to be doing as much damage as possible. Weapon damage may seem puny to a caster, but it's still more damage.

Actually, I'm headed towards Eldritch Theurge (yeah, not normally a great idea for a meleelock, but the defensive spells are too good to pass up.)
There's going to be a sweet spot where I'll be doing Hideous Blow with a Thunder Lance. Yes, that's right. My Eldritch Blast + 3d6 + my charisma and a natural reach of 20 feet. One enlarge person potion away from being a walking, talking obelisk of light. heehee.

[Person_Man]

Actually, I'm headed towards Eldritch Theurge (yeah, not normally a great idea for a meleelock, but the defensive spells are too good to pass up.)
There's going to be a sweet spot where I'll be doing Hideous Blow with a Thunder Lance. Yes, that's right. My Eldritch Blast + 3d6 + my charisma and a natural reach of 20 feet. One enlarge person potion away from being a walking, talking obelisk of light. heehee.

Eldritch Theurge is fun if you want to play a mini-Batman at mid-high levels. But you're a Warlock. You can Take 10 on UMD checks. You don't need to take levels of a spellcaster class in order to cast spells. Just buy wands. Unless you're going to be using a wide array of different spells, it's far more efficient, especially at low-mid levels when you're at ECL 2-6ish and suffering through something like Warlock 2/Sorcerer 3/ET 1ish (2nd level spells and invocations) while your friends are throwing 4th level spells/powers/manuevers around.

Also, be aware that Eldritch Glaive will give you 1-4 TOUCH attacks per round (depending on your level and whether or not you've cast Divine Power via a wand) PLUS attacks of opportunity PLUS the effects of your Eldritch Essence (forcing multiple Saves per round). So even the best Hideous Blow combo is a joke compared to the Eldritch Glaive, especially by the time you get access to spells like Thunder Lance (4th level spell).

Anywho, play what you think is fun. Just thought you should know.

[drebb]

Blah. Yeah, yeah. Wands. Humbug.

Wands only go up to level 4, and they're expensive as hell up there.
Also, ALL invocations use somatic components, and there's no way to still them. What is a single-class warlock to do when he gets grappled? Just take it like a b****, apparently.

I don't know. If there's no way I'm getting Ruin Delver's Fortune, then I'm going to have to sink two levels into Hexblade for the Cha bonus on saves.

[Tokiko Mima]

Also, it should be mentioned that Hideous Blow *really* screws you if you fight a foe with even a small amount of Spell Resistance. You'll be making an SR check as well as a melee attack roll, along with possibly a Concentration check for casting in a threatened space just to land a single attack. Fail any of those, and your attack will be disrupted or blocked.

What is a single-class warlock to do when he gets grappled? Just take it like a b****, apparently.

Once you can afford it, a Ring of Freedom of Movement cures all worries about being grappled.

You can still use your Eldritch Blast while grappled as well. Unlike your invocations which do have somatic components, Eldritch Blast itself is a true Spell-like Ability with no somatic components or any other components whatsoever. You can even use it when paralyzed, held, pinned, etc. A Warlock is solid as long as they can take purely mental actions.

[drebb]

You can still use your Eldritch Blast while grappled as well. Unlike your invocations which do have somatic components, Eldritch Blast itself is a true Spell-like Ability with no somatic components or any other components whatsoever. You can even use it when paralyzed, held, pinned, etc. A Warlock is solid as long as they can take purely mental actions.

Oh, I don't know if that's Rules As Intended, but very useful. Thanks!

Can I apply Blast Shape invocations to my Eldritch Blast without using somatic components as well? Or can I only use the standard EB while grappled?

[drebb]

Hmm. If Divine Power, Righteous Might, and Righteous Wrath of the Faithful are so good at turning a cleric into a war marchine, I'm actually considering going Eldritch Disciple. I wouldn't have to waste all that bloody money on wands (although I'll still keep a wand handing for casting Shield, Repelling Shield, etc)
I get D8!!! hit dice for all the levels of Eldritch Disciple. And I only have to give up three warlock levels to cleric to qualify.

In fact, I could go Cloistered Cleric for massive skill points since I'll be Divine Power-ing my BAB anyway. And Divine Magician would give me the few Abjuration spells I really want from Sorc/Wiz anyway.

Warlock 4/Cleric 3/Eldritch Disciple 10/Hellfire Warlock 3

Monster.

(I don't mind lagging a bit behind in power for the first half of the campaign. I enjoy being a more versatile caster, anyhow.)

[Burley]

You can still use your Eldritch Blast while grappled as well. Unlike your invocations which do have somatic components, Eldritch Blast itself is a true Spell-like Ability with no somatic components or any other components whatsoever. You can even use it when paralyzed, held, pinned, etc. A Warlock is solid as long as they can take purely mental actions.

Wait... In what Complete Arcane book are you reading this rule? Because, Eldritch Blast does have a somatic component. If I recall correctly, however, there is, somewhere a "Still Spell-Like Ability" feat that lets you use it stilled 3/day.
Something to keep in mind for your Melee Warlock: Eldritch Glaive, like all weapon-like spells/spell-like abilities, can be finessed, letting you attack with dexterity, instead of strength.
That means, higher AC and not having to worry about Strength, which you would need for Hidious Blow... Unless you're using a finessable weapon. And, the Warlock would have to spend a feat to get one that's worth a dook.

[Fostire]

You can still use your Eldritch Blast while grappled as well. Unlike your invocations which do have somatic components, Eldritch Blast itself is a true Spell-like Ability with no somatic components or any other components whatsoever. You can even use it when paralyzed, held, pinned, etc. A Warlock is solid as long as they can take purely mental actions.

That was errata'd, Eldritch blasts are invocations too.

[drebb]

That was errata'd, Eldritch blasts are invocations too.

Sad. :(

But that's okay. If I'm Large with a reach weapon, I'd like to see anything but a great wyrm or the tarrasque try to grapple me.

I'll definitely be taking Repelling Shield, too. When they hit me, they get knocked back. Nyeh nyeh.

[AmberVael]

Can someone point out to me where it says Invocations have somatic components? Because I've looked all through the warlock section in complete Arcane, the invocation section in the 4th chapter of complete arcane, and the Arcane errata, and I haven't found a single thing that says they do.

I also checked up on Spell-like Abilities, just to make sure I wasn't being silly and forgetting they have somatic components.

There's a vague reference under their Weapon and Armor proficiencies, but I can't find anything else.

[Fostire]

Can someone point out to me where it says Invocations have somatic components? Because I've looked all through the warlock section in complete Arcane, the invocation section in the 4th chapter of complete arcane, and the Arcane errata, and I haven't found a single thing that says they do.

I also checked up on Spell-like Abilities, just to make sure I wasn't being silly and forgetting they have somatic components.

There's a vague reference under their Weapon and Armor proficiencies, but I can't find anything else.

There's this part in the warlock's weapon and armor proficiencies:

However, like arcane spellcasters, a warlock wearing medium or heavy armor or using a shield incurs a chance of arcane spell failure (all invocations, including eldritch blast, have a somatic component).

[VirOath]

Hmm. If Divine Power, Righteous Might, and Righteous Wrath of the Faithful are so good at turning a cleric into a war marchine, I'm actually considering going Eldritch Disciple. I wouldn't have to waste all that bloody money on wands (although I'll still keep a wand handing for casting Shield, Repelling Shield, etc)
I get D8!!! hit dice for all the levels of Eldritch Disciple. And I only have to give up three warlock levels to cleric to qualify.

In fact, I could go Cloistered Cleric for massive skill points since I'll be Divine Power-ing my BAB anyway. And Divine Magician would give me the few Abjuration spells I really want from Sorc/Wiz anyway.

Warlock 4/Cleric 3/Eldritch Disciple 10/Hellfire Warlock 3

Monster.

(I don't mind lagging a bit behind in power for the first half of the campaign. I enjoy being a more versatile caster, anyhow.)

Warlock 3/Cleric 4/ Eldritch Disciple 10/Hellfire Warlock 3 would be better. You'd still get a Dark, and you'd cast as a 13th level cleric, which is 7th level spells.

Also, swap your Knowledge Domain for the Knowledge Devotion. Easy way of getting bonuses to hit, which on touch attacks is overkill. Picking up Shape Soulmeld (Strongheart Vest) will let you blast away with all of your Hellfire Warlock abilities all day long. DR1 vs stat damage/drain isn't the same as immunity, as any effect that would increase that damage would cause it to hurt you. 0 Damage is different than No Damage.

[Person_Man]

Blah. Yeah, yeah. Wands. Humbug.

Wands only go up to level 4, and they're expensive as hell up there.
Also, ALL invocations use somatic components, and there's no way to still them. What is a single-class warlock to do when he gets grappled? Just take it like a b****, apparently.

I don't know. If there's no way I'm getting Ruin Delver's Fortune, then I'm going to have to sink two levels into Hexblade for the Cha bonus on saves.

A spell-like ability has no verbal, somatic, or material component, nor does it require a focus or have an XP cost. The user activates it mentally. The Warlock entry makes you subject to attacks of opportunity and spell failure from armor, but does not give you a somatic component. If you're Grappled, just blast them.

Again, be very mindful of multi-classing. A Warlock/Hexblade would have screwed invocation progression and screwed BAB. Eldritch Disciple is rockin - but be aware that with a progression like Warlock 4/Cleric 3/Eldritch Disciple 10/Hellfire Warlock 3 you get 6th level Cleric spells and 17/20 Invocations. Nifty. But you'll always be 3ish levels behind other caster (and psionics, incarnum, Tome of Battle) builds friends in terms of their power.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

A spell-like ability has no verbal, somatic, or material component, nor does it require a focus or have an XP cost. The user activates it mentally. The Warlock entry makes you subject to attacks of opportunity and spell failure from armor, but does not give you a somatic component. If you're Grappled, just blast them.

Except Warlock SLAs do have Somatic components. Read the section on their ability to cast in armor.

[AmberVael]

There's this part in the warlock's weapon and armor proficiencies:

Knew I was missing it somewhere. Speed reading can be handy, but when you can't stop it, you tend to miss crucial things like this.

[9mm]

Except Warlock SLAs do have Somatic components. Read the section on their ability to cast in armor.

and casting a spell/using an SLA is an action you can take in a grapple.

[AmberVael]

and casting a spell/using an SLA is an action you can take in a grapple.

Cast a Spell

You can attempt to cast a spell while grappling or even while pinned (see below), provided its casting time is no more than 1 standard action, it has no somatic component, and you have in hand any material components or focuses you might need.

That would be the problematic section.

[drebb]

Yeah, exactly. If Eldritch Blast also counts as an invocation, then pure Warlocks can do absolutely *nothing* when they are grappled, short of making a (probably impossible) grapple check to pull out a wand and use that. (I think that's possible. I'm getting all confused now.)

But anyhow. Eldritch Disciple. 17/20 invocations, and 7th level cleric spells are ALRIGHT for ME! I'm sure I'll find something in there that'll cure me of my grapple dillemma.

[drebb]

In case y'all haven't noticed, I don't like playing item-reliant characters. I prefer to have all my abilities naked. Magic items are just cute little tricks for awkward situations. And too pricey.

[drebb]

Oh, I also decided to make my first feat Battle Caster. Clerics already get heavy armor, and I intend my melee lock to be wearing some pretty fancy mithral full plate by the end of this fiasco.

[Keld Denar]

But anyhow. Eldritch Disciple. 17/20 invocations, and 7th level cleric spells are ALRIGHT for ME! I'm sure I'll find something in there that'll cure me of my grapple dillemma.

Like say....Freedom of Movement? Its a 4th level Cleric spell in the PHB that allows you to AUTOWIN all grapple checks you make to resist a grapple or break free from a grapple, among other things. The duration isn't super long, but there is always DMM Persist...

[drebb]

Unfortunate that I won't learn Divine Power until 11th level. But I'm sure I'll find other ways to help out until then.

[Tokiko Mima]

Well, I suppose the solution to Warlocks being grappled depends on whether or not the DM uses the errata. If they don't use the errata, Elditch Blast is a true SLA, and you can use it when grappled since it lacks somatic components and isn't an invocation. If they do use the errata, then Eldritch Blast is a the equivalent of a 1st level spell, and eligible for the Quicken SLA Feat at Caster level 10, which would allow it to be used in a grapple 3/day.

[Burley]

Well, I suppose the solution to Warlocks being grappled depends on whether or not the DM uses the errata. If they don't use the errata, Elditch Blast is a true SLA, and you can use it when grappled since it lacks somatic components and isn't an invocation. If they do use the errata, then Eldritch Blast is a the equivalent of a 1st level spell, and eligible for the Quicken SLA Feat at Caster level 10, which would allow it to be used in a grapple 3/day.

No. The somatic component is in Complete Arcane. This isn't an Errata issue. It has been, and always will be, a spell-like ability with somatic components.

However, Grappling isn't used often, because it's confusing and stupid. Have a rogue in your party and he automatically get sneak attack on anything grappling you (read the grapple rules, it's true).
Check out the Player's Handbook 2 for an aura of fire that replaces your fast healing. That'll deal with grapplers and stuff.