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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Pixie in the Playground
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    Default Thinking about starting shadowrun...

    Well the title just about sums up what this thread is about. I'd like to know peoples opinions on whether it is a good game or not and if I should buy into it.

    Also I'd like to know what edition is best or at least the merits of each.

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    Default Re: Thinking about starting shadowrun...

    A LOT of the SR bug going around lately.

    Anywho, Shadowrun is awesome. It's "Blade Runner" meets D&D meets Judge Dredd meets Neuromancer meets Ghost in the Shell.


    There's been 4 editions so far:

    1e - the original, from 1989. Literally oozes style, but the ruleset leaves a LOT to be desired. Not intuitive at all, and the skill web has been known to cause cancer in the state of California.

    2e - Significantly more cleaned-up and workable, this is the version most people seemed to have started with. For this edition (and 1e), the aim of the game is to start fairly low-powered and grow your way into becoming badass. Don't get me wrong, you're more than a street punk with a gun, but not by a lot. Both this and 1e are very dark in tone, taking heavily from Blade Runner and William Gibson works. The world of the near future is dark and depressing (not GRIMDARK, but close). Megacorps rule everything, and you're either on the top or in the gutter. Unless you're magically active, you need cyberware to stay alive running the shadows...but cyber is actively harmful to your "soul". You literally get a little less human with each new bit of cyber.

    3e - Shadowrun in it's most "mature" form as a set of game rules, this is the ideas behind 1e taken and completely polished to really work. There's still a lot of flaws that are inseparable from how the game really works (astral combat and decking just kill the flow of the game). The world is a little less dark, and the setting is such that its far easier to play a much "lighter" style game, or to make your runners MUCH more high-powered out of the gate, or both. This is where we first really start seeing the impact of anime on the genre. During this edition, the game move from standalone modules to some overarching metaplot, which put some people off, but there's support for all sorts of play with this edition. The book Dunklezahn's Will, for example, is something like 120 pages of nothing but adventure hooks. This edition is, of the first 3, be far the most clean-running, understandable, and balanced (insofar as Shadowrun is balanced at all). It's also got the best editing and writing of any edition yet published. Finally, it's got the benefit of being cheap to get into; although nothing is being published for it anymore, the books are extremely easy to get ahold of and inexpensive.

    4e - an entirely new take on Shadowrun from Catalyst Game Labs, SR4 ditches a great deal of the dark and depressing atmosphere in favor of a heavily-anime-influenced game world. The mechanics are good and actually are a little easier to grasp than SR3 (a dice pool system similar to White Wolf stuff), though they have some weird quirks of their own. The game fixes a lot of the issues that 3e had - the Wireless Matrix, for example, makes decking something that the decker can do without excluding the rest of the group from the game table for a hour. It's a continuation of the same game "universe", in that 3e ended in 2064ish, and 4e picks up in 2070. Technically, 4e isn't actually "cyberpunk" - it's "post-cyberpunk"; cyberware isn't really inherently harmful to one's humanity anymore, though there's still some limits to how much you can do and stay alive. A strike, in my opinion, against it is the point-based character creation system. In my experience, point-buy systems encourage rampant min-maxing by players, whereas the 3e Priority system was generalized enough that it didn't minmax quite so easily. It has the advantage of being currently supported, but there's a new edition (the 20th anniversary edition - 4.1, really) that's supposedly coming out at GenCon. Overall, it's a worthy successor to 3e, the real question is whether you like the new flavor or not.


    I can honestly recommend either 3e or 4e Shadowrun. Both have strengths and weaknesses. I prefer the flavor of the earlier game, so I run 3e...but I compulsively import the 4e Wireless Matrix into my 3e games. Either is a solid pickup.
    Last edited by Swordguy; 2009-07-22 at 05:04 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dervag
    Quote Originally Posted by kpenguin
    Thus, knowing none of us are Sun Tzu or Napoleon or Julius Caesar...
    No, but Swordguy appears to have studied people who are. And took notes.
    "I'd complain about killing catgirls, but they're dead already. You killed them with your 685 quadrillion damage." - Mikeejimbo, in reference to this

  3. - Top - End - #3
    Troll in the Playground
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    Default Re: Thinking about starting shadowrun...

    Er.... What he said
    All Comicshorse's posts come with the advisor : This is just my opinion any difficulties arising from implementing my ideas are your own problem

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    Default Re: Thinking about starting shadowrun...

    I recently picked up Shadowrun 4e, and am running it soon for some friends. As someone who's completely new to the system, here's my take on it. (Keep in mind that this is someone whose gaming experience comes mostly from d20 systems. I've played non-d20 RPGs - Rifts, Aces & Eights, Hackmaster, AD&D 1e and 2e - but I've spent much more time with d20.)

    • I don't have any reference with regards to previous edition settings, but the 4e setting is pretty cool. High-tech, lowlives. Megacorps everywhere, the rich and powerful sequestered away into arcologies, and someone's watching your every step (unless you're careful)... It reminds me most of Stephenson's Snow Crash.
    • I dig the magic system - astral projection is really neat, and the ability to adjust the power level of your spells (even to the point where it results in physical injury.)
    • The [Skill] + [Ability] mechanic is really nice - it gives the system a lot of flexibility. It's like how in d20, if you had to climb in a zero-g environment, you might use Dex instead of Strength for Climb? The system makes that sort of thing really easy to do.
    • The rulebook is not terribly well organized. Rules for some things are spread out all over the place. (I'm specifically thinking of Rigging here, but there are other examples.) Skills only get a brief blurb describing how they work in the listing - actual usage is spread out across the book. Some things aren't very well elaborated at all. (Ok, those are the stats for the drones... but what are they?) I don't mind fleshing out details on my own, but...
    • I can't say as to whether or not 4e is simpler than 3e, but the rules are still pretty complex in their own right, at least to someone who hasn't seen them before. A lot of skills and actions have extensive lists of situational modifiers, and I guarantee that you'll need to go paging through to find them. (In fairness, the book says that you're better off winging it than looking it up in most cases.) I'm sure that hacking is simpler now than it once was, but it's still pretty complicated. It will probably take you some time to get comfortable with the rules, and character creation is not simple or quick. (Though the book includes some decent pregens, if you need characters fast.)
    • Point-buy encourages min/maxing, no two ways about it. However, the system expects you as a GM to take an active hand in character building and beat your players about the head if they try to pull anything silly. (Our rigger wanted to take Incompetent (Archery). I made sure he saw Reason*.)
    • I might recommend looking at some pre-made missions to start out, if you're the one running. In Shadowrun missions, the devil is in the details, and if you're just starting out, it will be hard to know what to do if the players go "off the rails".


    Swordguy: Not sure where you're getting the "anime influence" from - I just don't see it.

    But as far as I'm concerned, any interest in non-D&D systems is a good thing. I know GiantITP is a heavily D&D focused board, but I feel like a lot of people don't even recognize the fact that it's not the be-all and end-all of RPGs.

    *Reason is the name of my baseball bat.

    EDIT: Forgot to mention, there's some annoying typos in the book as well. Maybe they fixed them in the reprinting/errata, but we spent a few minutes trying to figure out why the elephant gun was under "machine pistols".
    Last edited by kjones; 2009-07-22 at 12:34 PM.
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    Default Re: Thinking about starting shadowrun...

    I wish the Shadowrun bug would migrate down into my area

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    Default Re: Thinking about starting shadowrun...

    Quote Originally Posted by kjones View Post

    Swordguy: Not sure where you're getting the "anime influence" from - I just don't see it.
    The designers. They've explicitly said they were moving away from dystopian, Gibson-esque cyberpunk and took as their new primary influence the anime series Ghost in the Shell: Stand Alone Complex.

    Really - 4e is significantly different in flavor to the earlier editions. It can always be run as an older style, but that's not where the system "wants" to be, if you catch my drift. There's no one thing you point to and say "that's anime". It's the feel of the entire work.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dervag
    Quote Originally Posted by kpenguin
    Thus, knowing none of us are Sun Tzu or Napoleon or Julius Caesar...
    No, but Swordguy appears to have studied people who are. And took notes.
    "I'd complain about killing catgirls, but they're dead already. You killed them with your 685 quadrillion damage." - Mikeejimbo, in reference to this

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    Default Re: Thinking about starting shadowrun...

    I ran, and played, many a Shadowrun game from 2nd and 3rd editions. A friend of mine got me a PDF of Shadowrun 4th ed to see if I liked it and just trying to build a character seemed a major hassle. Normally I enjoy building characters more than playing them, but this was a bit too difficult to understand. It might be easier if I had a hardback book to flip through, but I just wasn't that interested. I got rid of the PDF as I realized I wasn't going to play it. It didn't offer that much more than my 3rd edition books had and I have an entire collection of those.

    Maybe the other rules were easier to understand, but it wasn't my cup of tea.
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    Default Re: Thinking about starting shadowrun...

    If you ask me, the setting, chargen, and overall feel of the game were better in 3rd ed. But the rules and play were smoother in 4th.

    To me the only major problems with 3rd ed were the Matrix and Astral Combat, but those are two things you can circumvent to some extent. However, I hate the wireless Matrix. I understand that it's the progression of the setting and that it makes some kind of sense but I just can't stand it. Something about it just gets under my skin.

    Given the choice, I'd go with 3rd ed, but 4th is not without its good points.

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    Bugbear in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Thinking about starting shadowrun...

    Quote Originally Posted by Swordguy View Post
    The designers. They've explicitly said they were moving away from dystopian, Gibson-esque cyberpunk and took as their new primary influence the anime series Ghost in the Shell: Stand Alone Complex.

    Really - 4e is significantly different in flavor to the earlier editions. It can always be run as an older style, but that's not where the system "wants" to be, if you catch my drift. There's no one thing you point to and say "that's anime". It's the feel of the entire work.
    I've only watched a little SAC, but I guess I can understand this. Like I said, though, the thing it reminds me most of is Snow Crash - does anyone else feel this way? Depending on who you ask, Snow Crash is technically post-cyberpunk, but...

    Cristo Meyers: Sure, you can circumvent astral/matrix combat - but you shouldn't have to circumvent things that are major components of the game world. Which one is better, the 3e wired hacker that is relegated to an NPC role, or the 4e wireless hacker who actually gets to go on runs?

    Fixer: Having a physical copy of the book during character generation makes a big difference IMHO, since you're constantly flipping back and forth. Even then, it's complicated, possibly needlessly so by poor organization (as I talked about before). I still enjoy it, but I'm the sort that enjoys being a BP weenie - YMMV.

    I don't want to get into an edition war - I've never played 3e, and I've yet to actually play 4e. But as far as I'm concerned, the more people playing Shadowrun, of any stripe, the better.

    (And we thought D&D edition wars are bad - at least in D&D, the mechanics of different editions aren't so closely tied to the settings of different editions!)

    EDIT: I think I really need to pick up a copy of the 3e rulebook... dammit, there goes my food money for another week...

    EDIT EDIT: Swordguy, I didn't realize that you actually used the word "post-cyberpunk" to describe 4e. I guess that makes sense then - 4e does little to emphasize the dehumanizing aspects of cyberware, beyond simple Essence cost (and you only need Essence for cyberware!).
    Last edited by kjones; 2009-07-22 at 04:54 PM.
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    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: Thinking about starting shadowrun...

    I used to play 2nd and 3rd edition (mostly 3rd) back in the day, and recently the gang and I have picked up 4th edition. My players *love* character creation in 4th edition. Even the veterans like my original game master from the 2nd & 3rd edition games thinks that character creation is much smoother and easier. None of us particularly appreciate the organization of the book, but once you figure out *how* to create a character, making more is a pleasure!

    I like 4th edition's feel much better than 3rd, maybe because I can handle only so much GRIMDARK before I start to get the shakes. The post-cyberpunk feel is much more suited to our game group. It allows for plenty of dark alleys and all-powerful corps, while still giving the characters hope that somehow they can change things for the better. That tiny infusion of hope makes for a better game environment, in my opinion.

    Thanks to the wireless matrix, we no longer have to operate on a "Deckers are Banned" rule, but the effects of AR/VR are still yet to be fully understood by my group. Maybe once we've gotten more than three games under our belt we'll no more, but we're having a ton of fun.

    System-wise, I've never played with a better game system. The rules are simple to understand and have enough realism in them to keep me happy. I'd love to see this rule set ported to a pre-industrial setting.
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  11. - Top - End - #11
    Pixie in the Playground
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    Default Re: Thinking about starting shadowrun...

    I have looked at the free demo aventure and quickstart rules on the shadowrun website and it does look interesting, just a few questions about the rules though

    How much amo is there in a clip?
    and
    how do mages run out of magic casting power? (or do they not)

    edit: also does the sample sameri get to go twice because he has two "initiative passes"?
    Last edited by seventhearl; 2009-07-22 at 05:49 PM.

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    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: Thinking about starting shadowrun...

    Quote Originally Posted by seventhearl View Post
    how do mages run out of magic casting power? (or do they not)
    Mages can cast spells call day if they don't go overboard on the power of their spells. Then again, you're not going to affect a cybered-up trog with a Force 2 Powerbolt, so it's a matter of effectiveness.

    Casting spells causes magic users to resist drain, in much the same way that a character resist damage. Drain takes a toll on a character's stun damage chart (unless they go overboard, in which case the spell energies can physically start to tear them apart). Essentially, the more powerful spell you cast, the more exhausted you become and the less concentration you can put behind your spells. Eventually you've got nothing left an can actually knock yourself unconscious (or dead, if you overchannel) by casting too many spells too fast.

    The nice thing is that stun damage recovers relatively quickly, so if you cast a couple powerful spells over breakfast, you'll be feeling shiny again by lunch.
    This is one of my very favorite things about the Shadowrun systems.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teddy View Post
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  13. - Top - End - #13
    Troll in the Playground
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    Default Re: Thinking about starting shadowrun...

    How much amo is there in a clip?
    That depends on the weapon. A light pistols clip will hold less than an assault rifle.
    The ammo the weapon has will be included on the weapon tables (P 308 in 4e) under the AMMO heading. The way the ammo is held is included in brackets by the ammo. 'c' for clip, 'm' for magazine, 'cy' for cylinder for revolvers

    how do mages run out of magic casting power? (or do they not)
    Every time a mage casts a spell it causes 'DRAIN'. This is the mental or physical damage channeling the power of the spell does to the mage. The more he casts the more he can be hurt, the more he's hurt the harder it gets to cast spells. Eventually he will pass out or be so loaded with wound penalties he can't go on. ( Which is why mage's should always pack a gun as back-up)
    High enough level spells will do actual physical damage. In one game our mage actually killed herself casting a high level spell on a tank.

    edit: also does the sample sameri get to go twice because he has two "initiative passes"?
    Are you using 4E cause that Samurai has 3 passes. But yes every initiative pass is another go
    All Comicshorse's posts come with the advisor : This is just my opinion any difficulties arising from implementing my ideas are your own problem

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    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: Thinking about starting shadowrun...

    I've never looked at 4th ed, so this is a very naive question, but:
    How does a wireless matrix increase the chances of deckers going on runs? I mean, with a wired one, the decker sometimes needs to physically be in the secure zone in the building to bypass some killer ice, which means he needs to be on the run. If it's all wireless, wouldn't he just stay in Tahiti while you're in Seattle?

    Also, how do the new matrix rules work? Can they be ported into 3E without taking all/nothing?

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    Pixie in the Playground
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    Default Re: Thinking about starting shadowrun...

    This is where i've learnt what i know about shadowrun 4e from.

    Another question is what would I need to start playing it and how much would it cost?

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    Troll in the Playground
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    Default Re: Thinking about starting shadowrun...

    This is where i've learnt what i know about shadowrun 4e from.
    That seems to have just enough information to really confuse you
    All Comicshorse's posts come with the advisor : This is just my opinion any difficulties arising from implementing my ideas are your own problem

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    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: Thinking about starting shadowrun...

    Quote Originally Posted by seventhearl View Post
    Another question is what would I need to start playing it and how much would it cost?
    Other than a group of friends, all you need is the main source book. Amazon's new price for 4th edition is running $25-$30.

    Swordguy did a good job of breaking down the edition differences. The only thing to add is that 4th ed will be easier to get into (both purchasing and learning) if no one in your group has previous editions. If they do, look for whatever the majority of the group has. :)

    Quote Originally Posted by Riffington View Post
    I've never looked at 4th ed, so this is a very naive question, but:
    How does a wireless matrix increase the chances of deckers going on runs? I mean, with a wired one, the decker sometimes needs to physically be in the secure zone in the building to bypass some killer ice, which means he needs to be on the run. If it's all wireless, wouldn't he just stay in Tahiti while you're in Seattle?
    Swordguy may need to correct me as most of my experience is with 2nd ed but 4th seems to have made the majority of electronics network accessible via a shortrange Bluetooth equivalent. The result - hackers can do more than simply network overwatch. If they're in range they can hack into your opponents' gear and screw with them. I haven't played 4th, so am not certain how well it plays.
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    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: Thinking about starting shadowrun...

    Quote Originally Posted by Riffington View Post
    I've never looked at 4th ed, so this is a very naive question, but:
    How does a wireless matrix increase the chances of deckers going on runs? I mean, with a wired one, the decker sometimes needs to physically be in the secure zone in the building to bypass some killer ice, which means he needs to be on the run. If it's all wireless, wouldn't he just stay in Tahiti while you're in Seattle?

    Also, how do the new matrix rules work? Can they be ported into 3E without taking all/nothing?
    Well, the rules are a bit different, so it's not a straight port, but you can easily bring a lot of the concepts over to 3rd edition. When we played 2nd and 3rd edition we always had an NPC decker because it was a pain in the butt to have one of the PCs take care of the decking. Whenever the decker had to do any matrix work, the rest of the players were sitting around twiddling their thumbs for a half hour, and when the decker wasn't in the mix, she was bored as heck.

    With the new wireless matrix rules and augmented reality, hacker characters will often find that they can get higher level access by getting into the building that houses the node that they're trying to work on. Any corp worth its rep isn't going to have all its paydata sitting around connected to the outside, so that any schmo in Tahiti can just sleaze in and rob them blind. Instead, the decker needs to get inside the actual corp offices or physical data warehouse location with his team, and then he can hack into the local intranet. Once he beats the internal security, then there's no end of mayhem he can cause or trouble he can get in.
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    Bugbear in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Thinking about starting shadowrun...

    Quote Originally Posted by OverdrivePrime View Post
    With the new wireless matrix rules and augmented reality, hacker characters will often find that they can get higher level access by getting into the building that houses the node that they're trying to work on. Any corp worth its rep isn't going to have all its paydata sitting around connected to the outside, so that any schmo in Tahiti can just sleaze in and rob them blind. Instead, the decker needs to get inside the actual corp offices or physical data warehouse location with his team, and then he can hack into the local intranet. Once he beats the internal security, then there's no end of mayhem he can cause or trouble he can get in.
    This is basically the case - but how is this different from having the hacker sneak in during the run and connect with a wired connection, as someone mentioned before?
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    Default Re: Thinking about starting shadowrun...

    Quote Originally Posted by kjones View Post
    This is basically the case - but how is this different from having the hacker sneak in during the run and connect with a wired connection, as someone mentioned before?
    Because now the rest of the players don't groan when someone brings in their hacker PC. In the previous editions a decker meant that half the time the decker was having fun and half the time the rest of the party was having fun. With agumented reality and the wireless matrix, everyone can have a good time together. It's more important as a player mechanic than as a game mechanic, I think.
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    Default Re: Thinking about starting shadowrun...

    One thing I have always found goofy about 4ed SR: you typically have a car parked somewhere near with a group of (typically 2-3) unconcious bodies.
    The Rigger is in a bot somewhere else, the hacker is network guarding and doing other various things, and the magic user is in the astral.

    Just werid to me.
    Quote Originally Posted by Alabenson
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    Default Re: Thinking about starting shadowrun...

    Quote Originally Posted by kjones View Post
    This is basically the case - but how is this different from having the hacker sneak in during the run and connect with a wired connection, as someone mentioned before?
    It's possible to be hacked in and do other things.

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    Default Re: Thinking about starting shadowrun...

    Quote Originally Posted by BobVosh View Post
    One thing I have always found goofy about 4ed SR: you typically have a car parked somewhere near with a group of (typically 2-3) unconcious bodies.
    The Rigger is in a bot somewhere else, the hacker is network guarding and doing other various things, and the magic user is in the astral.

    Just werid to me.
    But you don't always have a hacker, a rigger, and a mage. In my group, the hacker and rigger are the same character, and there's no mage.

    But when you put it that way - yeah, that is kind of funny.
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    Default Re: Thinking about starting shadowrun...

    Quote Originally Posted by kjones View Post
    But you don't always have a hacker, a rigger, and a mage. In my group, the hacker and rigger are the same character, and there's no mage.

    But when you put it that way - yeah, that is kind of funny.
    Took doubling up on one character (a very easy thing to do in 4ed for the hacker/rigger) and skipping an entire combat style. We had 7 characters, so quite a few bodies.

    I'm used to most parties having technoman(hacker/rigger combo) and a mage in a car, and the street samarai with a marker drawing mustaches.
    Quote Originally Posted by Alabenson
    Evil Intelligence is knowing the precise ritual that will allow you to destroy the peaceful kingdom that banished you.

    Evil Wisdom is understanding that you probably shouldn’t perform said ritual while you’re standing in the estimated blast radius.

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    Default Re: Thinking about starting shadowrun...

    Quote Originally Posted by Riffington View Post
    I've never looked at 4th ed, so this is a very naive question, but:
    How does a wireless matrix increase the chances of deckers going on runs? I mean, with a wired one, the decker sometimes needs to physically be in the secure zone in the building to bypass some killer ice, which means he needs to be on the run. If it's all wireless, wouldn't he just stay in Tahiti while you're in Seattle?

    Also, how do the new matrix rules work? Can they be ported into 3E without taking all/nothing?
    Raum was pretty close - the Bluetooth analogy was excellent. Also, because practically everything is wireless now, the hacker can do more when he's actually ON the run; hacking into guns to make them misfire, hacking into cyberware to turn it off...that sort of thing. Thus, he becomes a a downright useful guy to have with you on the run, whereas before actually decking during a run was a Bad Idea.

    The real issue is that the time now syncs up between the Matrix and the real world. In 1-3rd edition, both Astral and Matrix "time" was incredibly faster than 'real' time. I'd have to go back and check my books, but IIRC a "round" in the Matrix is less than a second - it's a "speed of thought" thing. Now with the VR "overlay" in the decker's vision field, it's explicitly slowed back down, so that the timing syncs up.

    Finally, the reason hackers can go on runs is that they don't have to be unconscious to do their thing. Jacking into an old cyberdeck basically pulled your mind out of your body - it's useless for the duration. You're completely helpless while you're jacked-in. The Wireless Matrix no longer requires this, so you aren't a helpless meat puppet while you do your thing. You're still better off doing nothing but hacking (there's dice pool penalties for hacking and doing real-world stuff simultaneously), but you can still participate.

    The resolution system for hacking is also much faster than decking. Let's see, going off memory, here's a sample decking run to "erase the team's activities from the local police (Lone Star's) databanks". This is something reasonably common.

    1) Logon to Seattle LTG (requires an Opposed roll, Logon to LTG vs Access Rating)
    2) Find the Lone Star PLTG (requires an Opposed roll, Locate File vs Index Rating)
    3) Logon to Lone Star PLTG (requires an Opposed roll, Logon to LTG vs Access Rating)
    4) Find a way past mandatory Lone Star Probe-10 Intruder Countermeasures (requires a least 1 Opposed roll)
    5) Find the subhost that holds criminal records (requires an Opposed roll, Locate File vs Index Rating)
    6) Logon to said subhost (requires an Opposed roll, Logon to Host vs Access Rating)
    7) Scan for IC (requires an Opposed roll, Locate IC vs Index Rating)
    7) Search for the record you want (requires an Opposed roll, Locate File vs Index Rating)
    8) Delete the record you want (requires an Opposed roll, Edit File vs Files Rating)
    9) Alter database so no record of the file was there (requires an Opposed roll, Edit File vs Control Rating)
    9) Ensure you have no Trace-IC tracking you (requires an Opposed roll, Locate IC vs IC's Cloak Program Rating)
    10) Jack out (requires an Opposed roll IF you've got IC on you)

    And this is assuming that there's no Matrix Combat whatsoever. During each of those Opposed rolls within the Lone Star System, the GM keeps track of every success the system makes, even if the system fails to beat the decker. Each success raises the Security Tally (a pregenerated list of what happens as the system goes more and more on alert) by 1. As the tally goes up, more and more IC or security deckers stop by to see what's going on. Since the Lone Star System is rolling between 11 and 14 dice per opposed test (the TN being the decker's program ratings - usually between a 6 and 9), each opposed test is almost certain to generate successes. Which means cybercombat becomes almost a sure thing.


    ...and the whole time this is going on, the rest of the team is sitting with their thumbs up their butts, because this entire operation is going to take - perhaps - a minute or two of "real time". In real life, of course, you're looking at 15-25 minutes if there's no cybercombat at all and the run goes perfectly smooth, and potentially an hour or more, depending on the competence of the decker in question.

    From a "representing the gameworld" PoV, and from a "cool flavor" PoV, this is awesome. From a "game flow" PoV, or the PoV of the rest of the party, this sucks horribly. Which is why, even in my 3e games, I've embraced the idea of the Wireless Matrix with such abandon.
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    Default Re: Thinking about starting shadowrun...

    One thing I dislike about wireless is that it destroyed any reason to have an otaku. Deckers are much better and easier to do with the wireless.

    Also someone on this forums posted how (with starting cash/basic points) you can easily replace both with anyone having a good enough bank roll.
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    Default Re: Thinking about starting shadowrun...

    Just to reinforce what's already been said, 4th ed Shadowrun is very Ghost in the Shell. Which is fine by me - I'll go for GitS over cyberpunk any day.

    Something I think is worth mentioning though is that with (4e) Shadowrun you really do have everything you need in the main book. The supplements consist of about 15% game material, and it's not even very useful game material, so think twice before buying.
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    Default Re: Thinking about starting shadowrun...

    Only familiar with the 3rd edition, but can very highly recommend it (even if it is, by my standards at least, rather on the rules-heavy side).

    I always thought fixing the Matrix problem was rather simple - all one has to do is to remove the rule that says time passes faster in the Matrix than in the real world. Voilà, the decker monitors the Matrix, turns off cameras etc. at the same speed as the other runners advance and can participate in the run and interact with his chummers actively.
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    Default Re: Thinking about starting shadowrun...

    Shadowrun is a great game.
    But unless your really going to go for the fantasy elements I have always found Cyberpunk to be a little better.
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    Default Re: Thinking about starting shadowrun...

    Did they move Bioware to the main book in SR4?
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