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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    DruidGuy

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    Default Limiting Wild Shape?

    Basically, the idea was to limit the number of animals a druid can wild shape into, but not by HD. The idea was they gained one every druid level (after getting wild shape, so a lv 20 druid would have 16, lv 19 would have 15, etc.), they have to be able to wild shape into it, and it cannot exceed their HD (as normal).

    It's just an idea, I'm not sure if it's a good one or a bad one. An attempt at trying to lessen the brokenness of wild shape, I'll call it.

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    PairO'Dice Lost's Avatar

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    Default Re: Limiting Wild Shape?

    Well, most druids have one or two combat forms they rely on and one or two utility forms, changing into others only if necessary, so this would limit their ability to pull weird abilities out of thin air but not necessarily their combat or sneaking ability. It could work if you combined it with a "must personally encounter wild shape form" clause, but that's a bit too swingy for good balance.
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  3. - Top - End - #3
    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Limiting Wild Shape?

    Technically, "The form chosen must be that of an animal the druid is familiar with." is RAW - so you could require a Knowledge: Nature check. That just means they'll max the skill and add the form out of combat so they can take ten, but it's a start.

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    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: Limiting Wild Shape?

    Yeah, most druids only need a few forms. A couple of good combat ones, something that flies, swims and burrows, and you're pretty much set.
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    Default Re: Limiting Wild Shape?

    Quote Originally Posted by Woodsman View Post
    Basically, the idea was to limit the number of animals a druid can wild shape into, but not by HD. The idea was they gained one every druid level (after getting wild shape, so a lv 20 druid would have 16, lv 19 would have 15, etc.), they have to be able to wild shape into it, and it cannot exceed their HD (as normal).

    It's just an idea, I'm not sure if it's a good one or a bad one. An attempt at trying to lessen the brokenness of wild shape, I'll call it.
    Any particular reason you're not going to use the PHB II variant?

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    Sstoopidtallkid's Avatar

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    Default Re: Limiting Wild Shape?

    Generally a Druid will want:
    Charger form(big cat/triceratops)
    Bruiser/grappler form(Bear/crocodile)
    Water form(croc)
    Scouting flyer(bird)
    combat flyer(dire bird/bat)
    Indoor scout(cat/rat/dog)

    Limiting the number of forms is going to cut down on access to the more estoric options, but all that really means is that you face the same overpowered lightning-spitting animal in combat for about 5 levels, rather than a different one occasionally because the player was in the mood for a new way of stomping encounters.
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    HalfOrcPirate

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    Default Re: Limiting Wild Shape?

    Wildshape is BANNED. BANNED, do you hear me?

    Really though the choice between wildshape and spells should be one that every druid makes. They either get wildshape OR Spells, not both. And ditch those broken spells on the list.

    Actually, you know what? Just use Spirit Shaman (CDiv) as a replacement for the druid class. Done.

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    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    DruidGuy

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    Default Re: Limiting Wild Shape?

    I prefer the Shapeshifting variant, but this is just an idea I had.

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    GnomeWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Limiting Wild Shape?

    You could use the 2nd edition version of wildshape. Where you get to pick one bird, one reptile and one mammal. Then one more for any category they choose. So for instance they could have for their shapes a hawk, gecko, bear and then maybe a wolf. It severely limits how many shapes they get and might make them think carefully about what they choose.

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    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    DruidGuy

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    Default Re: Limiting Wild Shape?

    That's more akin to the shapeshifter variant from PHB II.

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    RogueGirl

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    Default Re: Limiting Wild Shape?

    I'd enforce the "can only wildshape into a creature they're familiar with" thing pretty strictly. When I played a MoMF druid, my DM ruled that I had to have seen the creature to wildshape into it. Considering where my character was from (northern forest/plains areas), this limited my choices somewhat... but as I adventured, I encountered new creatures, and was able to turn into them. Making the "familiar with" thing based on knowledge (nature) works mechanically, I guess, but it's kind of asking for abuse. If you really want to limit it, enforce some RP and backstory.
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    Default Re: Limiting Wild Shape?

    Quote Originally Posted by evil-frosty View Post
    You could use the 2nd edition version of wildshape. Where you get to pick one bird, one reptile and one mammal. Then one more for any category they choose. So for instance they could have for their shapes a hawk, gecko, bear and then maybe a wolf. It severely limits how many shapes they get and might make them think carefully about what they choose.
    Dire (big cat), Dire Eagle, Giant Crocodile. Form 4 to taste. You've reduced flavor of druids, cutout a few options, but in-combat they're going to be just as effective.
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  13. - Top - End - #13
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    DruidGuy

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    Default Re: Limiting Wild Shape?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rhiannon87 View Post
    If you really want to limit it, enforce some RP and backstory.
    Now that's my style. I'm not afraid to say "Give me a good reason" for a player's actions OOC. Often times when I ask this, they stop and say "Nevermind."

  14. - Top - End - #14

    Default Re: Limiting Wild Shape?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sstoopidtallkid View Post
    Dire (big cat), Dire Eagle, Giant Crocodile. Form 4 to taste. You've reduced flavor of druids, cutout a few options, but in-combat they're going to be just as effective.
    Actually, since a druid won't be going to turn into a dire anything any time soon, their combat power got a big hit untill higher levels.

    Anyway, best is to simply the DM discuss a balanced fauna with the druid player, and have the druid only have acess from that fauna, since it's the only one he'll be familiar with, having grown on it.
    Last edited by Oslecamo; 2009-07-22 at 12:54 PM.

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    JonestheSpy's Avatar

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    Default Re: Limiting Wild Shape?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rhiannon87 View Post
    I'd enforce the "can only wildshape into a creature they're familiar with" thing pretty strictly. When I played a MoMF druid, my DM ruled that I had to have seen the creature to wildshape into it. Considering where my character was from (northern forest/plains areas), this limited my choices somewhat... but as I adventured, I encountered new creatures, and was able to turn into them. Making the "familiar with" thing based on knowledge (nature) works mechanically, I guess, but it's kind of asking for abuse. If you really want to limit it, enforce some RP and backstory.
    Really, that's all you have to do. Especially if you - quite logically - assume that 'familiar' means 'has some actual knowledge about how said animal is put together', not just encountered in combat once (though if the druid took the time for study and dissection of a slain unfamiliar animal, that should definitely qualify).

    Just because dinosuars are listed as possibilities doesn't mean they should be auotmatic - escecially those munchkiny later-MM edition ones.

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    Default Re: Limiting Wild Shape?

    Quote Originally Posted by Woodsman View Post
    Now that's my style. I'm not afraid to say "Give me a good reason" for a player's actions OOC. Often times when I ask this, they stop and say "Nevermind."
    I'm rather blessed in that my PCs always have a good RP reason for when they do something like this.

    I think the fact that I open up interest threads for campaigns doubly emphasizing RP and the fact that I both know how to optimize and spend a lot of houserules on killing cheese tends to attract PCs of a similar stripe.

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    Default Re: Limiting Wild Shape?

    I ran a game where the only decent player was a munchkin as well, and he picked druid as his class.

    I told him from the start, no problem, but..

    1) There is no such thing as natural spell.

    2) You must be very familiar with a creature to wild shape into it. Write me up a good backstory, and Ill toss you a few forms to start with based on your "upbringing," but any additions have to have been personally encountered. No rolling knowledge nature checks. You find it, you watch it, you study it, (fighting it will give a bonus) and you can make a wisdom check to see if you have garnered enough knowledge to make the transformation.

    It worked pretty good and he was by far the dominant party member, but alas the group melted right when things were going to get interesting.

    I think my favorite part was when he surprised the tuckers kobolds by casting sleet storm in their tunnels and then switched into a crocodile to chomp at their fleshy bits as they were washed past him.. He didnt know since that was our last session, but I gave him kudos bonus xp for that one.
    Last edited by daggaz; 2009-07-22 at 01:58 PM.

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    Default Re: Limiting Wild Shape?

    If he's a 'decent player', then he's an optimizer or powergamer, not a munchkin. While definitions for all of these vary, it's generally accepted that a munchkin is someone who has little redeeming value as a player in any way.

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    Default Re: Limiting Wild Shape?

    Here's a big problem with the "must be familiar with the animal" rule - spontaneous conversion of summon nature's ally spells.

    As soon as he hits 5th level, a Druid can spend the day summoning critters, probably 8-10 a day. (Probably 4 from the 1st-level list, if he isn't familiar with them, 3 from the 2nd-level list, and 2 from the 3rd-level list, assuming bonus spells from high Wis.)

    Given a week (can be done "off-screen" I suppose if you enforce training times), he can know most of the most commonly used forms (lion, crocodile, dire bat, black bear, and so on).
    Last edited by RTGoodman; 2009-07-22 at 02:23 PM.
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    Default Re: Limiting Wild Shape?

    Quote Originally Posted by AstralFire View Post
    If he's a 'decent player', then he's an optimizer or powergamer, not a munchkin. While definitions for all of these vary, it's generally accepted that a munchkin is someone who has little redeeming value as a player in any way.
    well yeah ok this isnt exactly the place to get into either a) your definitions or b) how exactly my friend fits them or not.. .so yeah thanks tho for the input. I will write that down for all future use I can assure you.

    @rtg0092 Heh thats funny, thats exactly the fist thing he brought up. I just said no. No because the whole point is to limit the ability, but if you really really want some fluff to explain it, well then the summoned monsters act differently, almost as if they were under your control, and the magic behind actually changing forms requires a very natural, some would say druidic knowledge of the creature in its most natural and normal environment and behaviors. The munchkin in him squirmed, but he accepted it for balance reasons.
    Last edited by daggaz; 2009-07-22 at 02:03 PM.

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    Default Re: Limiting Wild Shape?

    Perhaps it might be a good idea to limit Wild Shape, or at least talk with the player before he picks a new form. I mean...


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  22. - Top - End - #22
    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: Limiting Wild Shape?

    Making Natural Spell a +2 Metamagic helps too - it isn't necessary to outright ban it.

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    Default Re: Limiting Wild Shape?

    Heh... I cringe at anything that includes pieces of PunPun in its build... you just know its meant to be over the top as written. Master of Many Forms... eeeesh!

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    DruidGuy

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    Default Re: Limiting Wild Shape?

    Hey, when I smell cheese, I'll release the dire rats. not on the characters, but the players, the puny first-level commoners.

    I'm not afraid to use every resource at my disposal to send a hint. Especially Spell Compendium. Antimagic Ray...

    I mean, I've run into (as a player) an Undead dual-wielding Maximized Black Blades of Destruction. Of course, it was epic, but still, it was crazy.

    And of course, I'll have a perfectly legit IC reason. Aberrations are killed on sight in the world (My world. Needs a homebrew thread, I should think), so Aberration Wild Shape isn't necessarily a good idea.

    That, and they could only become a Gauth at lv 7. HD restrictions, mate.
    Last edited by Woodsman; 2009-07-22 at 02:26 PM.

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    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Imp

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    Default Re: Limiting Wild Shape?

    Quote Originally Posted by daggaz View Post
    Heh... I cringe at anything that includes pieces of PunPun in its build... you just know its meant to be over the top as written. Master of Many Forms... eeeesh!
    What's wrong with MoMF? Sure it's breakable, but then so is everything (more or less)...I always thought it quite a balanced PrC myself...
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    Default Re: Limiting Wild Shape?

    Quote Originally Posted by JellyPooga View Post
    What's wrong with MoMF? Sure it's breakable, but then so is everything (more or less)...I always thought it quite a balanced PrC myself...
    Nothing is _wrong_ with it, per say.. its just a PrC that is focused almost exclusively around one of the most overpowered and breakable mechanics in the whole game, namely superior shape changing. So as soon as you see this, you have to accept the fact that the game must be high powered for it not to be completely overpowered, and you have to be very careful that it still isnt pushed into the realms of God-destroying-gouda.

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    DruidGuy

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    Default Re: Limiting Wild Shape?

    Striking some of the aspects of MoMF (Shifter's Speech, Fast Wild Shape, Evershifting Form) could make it better, but it's still pretty powerful.

    I'd honestly like to try the class, but not to break the game. I'm not a munchkin; I'm in it to have fun with myself and others.

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    Default Re: Limiting Wild Shape?

    Shifting (like most supernatural power) is really, really easy to uncheese if you're playing just 'to be cool' - when I was new to 3.0, the druid actually seemed terribly weak (even with Natural Spell, first released in Masters of the Wild) because my first instinct was to shapeshift into -birds-. I found myself very underwhelmed with my combat performance as a result. Everything was birds - I had no interest in summon nature's ally because, well, another bird or 1d4+1 of them weren't all that good.
    Last edited by AstralFire; 2009-07-22 at 02:40 PM.

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    DruidGuy

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    Default Re: Limiting Wild Shape?

    Why would you NERF MoMF? Thats rediculous!

    MoMF is WEAKER than Druid 20. Weaker by, oh, the difference between 5th level and 9th level spells. Also weaker by the difference between a pet tiger and a pet T-Rex. And you have to take 2 useless feats to even enter it! A MoMF can't do much of anything, with all 10 levels of the class, that a core druid can't do at level 17, and he is way behind in all other areas.

    Unless you are also heavily nerfing Druid, Wizard, Cleric, Sorcerer, and all the other Tier 1 and 2 classes, taking stuff away from MoMF makes no sense at all. If I wanted to balance it, I would take away the entry requirements, and thank the player for not taking the route that leads to 9th level spells.

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    DruidGuy

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    Default Re: Limiting Wild Shape?

    Yeah, I noticed that right after making the post. It is 9th level spell combos that break the game (I believe).

    Shapechange, of course, requires 1,500 gp each time. The feats are a bit pointless, though. Well Alertness is.

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