Limiting Wild Shape?

[Ridureyu]

Of course, what's unsaid is the REASON for becoming an Eye Tyrant. I wouldn't use it to dominate combat, or break the game, or "Win" at D&D. I would choose to become a Beholder when:


1. Talking with the King.

2. Ordering a drink from the bar wench.

3. In an inn room with the bar wench.

4. Helping at the orphanage.

5. In the middle of the Temple of Pelor, right after saying, "And if what I say is not true, may Pelor strike me AARRRGGGHBLABLABLABLAAAAAAAA!!"

[Gnaeus]

Yeah, I noticed that right after making the post. It is 9th level spell combos that break the game (I believe).

I think most people would agree with that.

Shapechange, of course, requires 1,500 gp each time. The feats are a bit pointless, though. Well Alertness is.

1. Thats a focus, not a material component. You just have to own the circlet. Even if it were a per cast cost, it is still cheaper than a 5th level scroll. He should more than make up for that in the first encounter.

2. An 18th level druid, with a rod of metamagic (extend) casts shapechange that lasts 6 hours. He only has to cast it once per adventuring day. If he wants to go non-core in his cheese, he goes Cleric1/Druid 19 and casts Shapechange (persisted from Divine metamagic) first thing every morning.

3. Even without the shapechange, there is nothing MoMF can do that matches the druid 20 wildshaping into an air elemental and hovering over his enemies casting 9th level spells.

[Rhiannon87]

Perhaps it might be a good idea to limit Wild Shape, or at least talk with the player before he picks a new form. I mean...


Level 7 - Druid 5/Master of Many Forms 2

Wild Shape, Assume Supernatural Ability, Aberration Blood, Aberration Wild Shape

BECOME A BEHOLDER!!!

As I recall, you get the ability to turn into aberrations as an MoMF at 6th level of the PrC. My druid wanted to turn into a beholder, but that whole "familiar with the creature" thing bit me in the @$$. There was no logical argument for my character ever having SEEN one; thus, no beholder eye-ray fun for me. Sigh.

[aje8]

For the record MoMF is generally considered weak compared to straight Druid 20. Beaten to the punch.

In fact one of the ideas I would suggest for druid would be at lv. 5 pick EITHER regular druid progression w/o wildshape or MoMF progression.

Pun-Pun is a kobold paladin 1. Not a MoMF.

[Ungvar]

Why does anyone want to limit Wildshape? That's the thing that makes the Druid different!! Take that away, and he's just a cleric of Mother Nature. There are plenty of ways to balance it out. Slow down spell level progression, take away all the direct damage spells from his spell-list, employ the Natural Spell metamagic change that was mentioned above.

And limiting the forms of wildshape is just going to encourage the focus on combat. I'm playing a Druid 9/MoMF 2 right now, and the best thing about it is the ability to be sort of a super doppleganger. When you want to determine the plans of an enemy warlord, it's pure sweetness to wildshape into the form of his own dog, and wag your tail as you overhear him laying it all out for his commanders.

[grautry]

Strictly enforcing familiarity with the animal doesn't really work.

1. Knowledge: Nature that is effectively superhuman for a mid-level druid. If that doesn't work:
2. Summon Nature's Ally Lists, as mentioned. For animals unavailable on the list:
3. MM2 gives you a method for purchasing a warbeast animal(which is biologically no different than base animals, the only difference is that it's exceptionally well-bred and well trained). If magic items are available for purchase in your games then you have no excuse not to give players the opportunity to purchase whatever animal they wish.

It has some cost, true(50gp/HD if less than 3 HD, 100 gp + 75/HD for 4+) but he'll just purchase whatever animal he wants to have.

The only thing you'll really accomplish is - as has been mentioned - reducing the coolness and the flavour of the druid. You won't change a thing about the power of Wildshape.

[Saph]

Limit Wildshape to no dinosaurs and Core only and call it a day. This also cuts down on the DM's workload so that he doesn't have to look up the Dire Okapi in Monster Folio VII just because the Druid's player wanted the special "Okapi Sense" ability that it gets.

Note that even with those restrictions, the druid is still very, very good, but manageable. If you want to seriously limit the druid's power, just use the PHB II Shapeshift variant.

- Saph

[mcl01]

As mentioned earlier, the quickest fix I believe is the Shapeshifting Variant in PHBII. Vastly simplifies WS and makes it less abusable.

[AstralFire]

I believe Woodsman's aware of the variant, he was trying to see what could be done to salvage the original(ish, since Wild Shape's base mechanic is Alter Self, not polymorph anymore) mechanic.

[Mr.Moron]

Leave things otherwise alone, and change the durations.

Small/Tiny = 1min/Level
Medium = 1round/level
Large = 1round/2 levels
Huge/Plant/Elemental = 1 round/4levels

Strike Natural spell from the feat list.

[Ungvar]

Limit Wildshape to no dinosaurs and Core only and call it a day. This also cuts down on the DM's workload so that he doesn't have to look up the Dire Okapi in Monster Folio VII just because the Druid's player wanted the special "Okapi Sense" ability that it gets.

Note that even with those restrictions, the druid is still very, very good, but manageable. If you want to seriously limit the druid's power, just use the PHB II Shapeshift variant.

- Saph

The DM is already screwing himself up big-time if he's the one looking up form stats for the player. If the player wants a form, the player does the research. In fact, another good way of limiting wildshape would be to rule that the player has to fill out a complete character sheet (aside from stuff like inventory) for every form he wants to use. Simple laziness will itself be an effective restraint on the player's form repertoire.

And as an aside, druids don't get the senses of the animals they wildshape into. I think it's ridiculous, but if you become a bat, you still don't get the blindsense.

[AstralFire]

The DM is already screwing himself up big-time if he's the one looking up form stats for the player. If the player wants a form, the player does the research. In fact, another good way of limiting wildshape would be to rule that the player has to fill out a complete character sheet (aside from stuff like inventory) for every form he wants to use. Simple laziness will itself be an effective restraint on the player's form repertoire.

And as an aside, druids don't get the senses of the animals they wildshape into. I think it's ridiculous, but if you become a bat, you still don't get the blindsense.

There are feats to get around the latter issue.

For the former part, by 'look up' he didn't mean 'hunt down the best stats' (though I often do this for my players, as many are not optimizers) he meant 'read for yourself', which I think every DM should do, so they don't get a nasty surprise. And you'd be surprised just how industrious people can be to get a power boost sometime... copying a sheet down straight from the MM and adding in your own Base Attack will not take long.

[Glyde]

If its a dinosaur and there are no dinosaurs, you can't turn into a dinosaur.

[Ungvar]

There are feats to get around the latter issue.

For the former part, by 'look up' he didn't mean 'hunt down the best stats' (though I often do this for my players, as many are not optimizers) he meant 'read for yourself', which I think every DM should do, so they don't get a nasty surprise. And you'd be surprised just how industrious people can be to get a power boost sometime... copying a sheet down straight from the MM and adding in your own Base Attack will not take long.

There's a spell that gives you the senses of the animal you become, Enhanced Wild Shape, but I don't know of any feat that gives you the senses of the animal you become, unless you mean Exhalted Wildshape.

And I understood he didn't mean hunt down the best stats for the player. I'm saying, if the player says he wildshapes into a dire ocelot, he has to have all the stats for the DM to see right then. He shouldn't be telling the DM, "I'm a Dire Ocelot now, you can find out what I can do if you go to X page of Y book".

Copying 1 sheet of the MM is no sweat. Copying 5 sheets is not so bad. Copying 10 sheets is reasonable. Copying 20+ sheets really starts getting tiresome. That's what I mean about it being self-limiting.

The variety of wildshape is what makes it interesting. If you limit it, players will just choose combat forms, and they won't think about creative, roleplaying ways to use it.

[AstralFire]

The people who really want powerful combat forms only need to copy a handful at most to begin with if they did their research, is the issue.

IMO, there's no real good universally applicable way to limit core Wild Shape without just holding the player to not being a jerk. Which usually worked for me. Last time I ran D&D, I used the pHB2 variant though.

[Ungvar]

If the player is copying down a handful of the really powerful forms he wants, I guess I just don't see the problem with that. They make their copies, the DM looks them over, and that's that. If there's a specific form in Savage Races of Faerun Monster Folio 6.5 that the DM feels is unbalancing, just don't allow it. Say it doesn't exist in your world.

Also, another way to limit wildshape is to say you can't assume the same form twice in one day.

[AstralFire]

I'd say all that ends up doing is hurting the "OOH THAT WAS AN AWESOME MONSTER I WANNA TURN INTO I- ooh, what does THIS megafauna do?" druids and doing nothing to actually limit the power of an optimizing druid, which is the intent of the OP.

[grautry]

If the player is copying down a handful of the really powerful forms he wants, I guess I just don't see the problem with that. They make their copies, the DM looks them over, and that's that. If there's a specific form in Savage Races of Faerun Monster Folio 6.5 that the DM feels is unbalancing, just don't allow it. Say it doesn't exist in your world.

Also, another way to limit wildshape is to say you can't assume the same form twice in one day.

Once again, that won't really change much. Straight from druid handbook, best forms around level ~8-12:

Grappling:
- Brown bear.
- Dire lion.

Charger:
- Sabre-tooth lion. Can be rare.
- Dire tiger.

Trampler forms - those, admittedly are the rare ones.

Defensive:
- Dire Bat.
- Legendary eagle.
- Treant.

Aerial:
- Dire bat.
- Dire eagle.

Aquatic:
- Polar bear.
- Giant octopus. Could be rare I suppose.
etc. I could list more forms but you can just look it up.

The point I'm trying to make is that for almost every conceivable application of wildshape, you can find multiple and fairly common forms that you can turn into. Even if each one isn't absolutely, perfectly optimized to the last +1, they will still be very, very strong.

So really, neither of your proposals "fixes" wildshape.

If you want to limit wildshape then just go for the PHBII variant. Though one thing that always made me laugh about this one though is that they called it an "Alternative Class Feature" with a straight face, when it's really a huge nerf(get a weaker wildshape and cough up your animal companion and spellcasting in forms, sign up now!).

But, if you want to limit wildshape, that's the way to go. Though I at least wouldn't deny the druid his animal companion.

[Ungvar]

I know there are powerful forms, but they're only REALLY powerful because the druid is also a spellcaster. All those creatures you listed? None are above a CR 8, and most are CR 4 or below.

I think our difference is that you think wildshape needs to be fixed mechanically, and I don't. Sure, there are things a DM can insist upon to prevent the player from giving him homework, but wildshape itself is fine. If you think the druid is overpowered because of the combination of wildshape and being a full caster, I'd say that fine, fix the overpowered druid by messing with the spellcasting, not the wildshape. Limiting the wildshape is just making the druid more like a cleric, and if you wanted to be more like a cleric, be a cleric.

Here's a hypothetical: Imagine a Druid 15 faces off against a Druid 5/ Master of Many Forms 10. Who do you think is going to win? The full Druid with his fully powered Animal Companion and his 8 levels of spells are going to TOAST the Druid/MoMF in whatever form he takes. The full Druid wouldn't even need to using his own wildshape.

Wildshape isn't overpowered, spellcasting is.

And are you sure the Druid Handbook is right that those forms are all for Level 8-12? The Treant is a Huge plant, and Druids don't get huge until 15th level. The the Dire Tiger is a 16 HD, animal, so that's level 16. Only way to get those before is with items or PrCs

[Ungvar]

I'd say all that ends up doing is hurting the "OOH THAT WAS AN AWESOME MONSTER I WANNA TURN INTO I- ooh, what does THIS megafauna do?" druids and doing nothing to actually limit the power of an optimizing druid, which is the intent of the OP.

I guess I'm just trying to change the general perception that wildshape is overpowered, and needs to be toned down. A Dire Bear wouldn't be a challenge to higher level monsters. It's when the Dire Bear is airwalking, buffing himself, calling down lighting, and baleful polymorphing that he becomes a heavy hitter.

Limiting wildshape limits what makes the druid different from other casters. You CAN give up spellcasting instead, is all I'm saying.

[Eldariel]

I guess I'm just trying to change the general perception that wildshape is overpowered, and needs to be toned down. A Dire Bear wouldn't be a challenge to higher level monsters. It's when the Dire Bear is airwalking, buffing himself, calling down lighting, and baleful polymorphing that he becomes a heavy hitter.

One other big problem is, Wildshape has broken mechanics. It means you can ignore two of your stats entirely and one of your stats partially, making a 1/1/14/ Druid almost as good as an 18/18/14 Druid.

Martial types need to pick up huge Str from level 1 and put their level-ups to it to keep it up to the level, while Druid just keeps picking bigger and stronger Wildshape-forms, getting all that for free. Like, it's possible for a Fighter to get Str 26 by level 8 (you gotta be Orc, get a +2 item, start with 8 and put both your level-ups to Str) and Large (Enlarge Person, Permanencied by an NPC - buffs the Str to 28), but a Druid doesn't need to do anything to reach the same number. And then Druid can have enchantment bonus on top of that.

The Wildshape/Bite of the X-mechanics of giving a numeric enchantment boost instead of replacing a stat function far better as they mean a Druid needs to invest in his physicals to be a killing machine. It's still a question of whether having all modes of movement, huge natural armor, speed increases, pounce, etc. at your fingertips for hours/day with one ability is too good, but at least that change forces Druids interested in fighting beyond level 5 to pick up related stats and care for physicals instead of just getting all those abilities for free regardless of magic gear and stats due to a class feature.


Note that this is less of an issue in high stat games, but as obviously few games go over 4d6b3 or 32pb, this is relevant.

[Ungvar]

One other big problem is, Wildshape has broken mechanics. It means you can ignore two of your stats entirely and one of your stats partially, making a 1/1/14/ Druid almost as good as an 18/18/14 Druid.

If the DM is allowing anything close to that kind of point buy, he doesn't care a whit about balance anyway.

Martial types need to pick up huge Str from level 1 and put their level-ups to it to keep it up to the level, while Druid just keeps picking bigger and stronger Wildshape-forms, getting all that for free. Like, it's possible for a Fighter to get Str 26 by level 8 (you gotta be Orc, get a +2 item, start with 8 and put both your level-ups to Str) and Large (Enlarge Person, Permanencied by an NPC - buffs the Str to 28), but a Druid doesn't need to do anything to reach the same number. And then Druid can have enchantment bonus on top of that.

There's a lot more to combat than just strength. Druids have a 3/4 BAB, and a lower hit die than many martial types. They also don't have any other combat specific class abilities like rage or bonus feats or martial maneuvers. Druids do get the special attacks of the form, but those are far more limited than what martial types can choose from.

And animal ACs are not that great, much worse than a heavily armored fighter, especially at higher levels. Sure, the Druid can cast barkskin and get wild armor, but those depend on spellcasting (in the first case, the spellcasting of the druid, in the second, the spellcasting of the armor enchanter). The DM can rule that barkskin only functions on the recipient's natural form, and that wild armor doesn't exist. Bam! Problem solved.

Plus, martial types (almost always) fight with weapons. Weapons with progressively more powerful magical enchantments. The weapons of a wildshape form are not magical. Sure, they can get magic fang'd, silvered claws'd, etc., but that's another case of spells making the form more powerful.

The Wildshape/Bite of the X-mechanics of giving a numeric enchantment boost instead of replacing a stat function far better as they mean a Druid needs to invest in his physicals to be a killing machine. It's still a question of whether having all modes of movement, huge natural armor, speed increases, pounce, etc. at your fingertips for hours/day with one ability is too good, but at least that change forces Druids interested in fighting beyond level 5 to pick up related stats and care for physicals instead of just getting all those abilities for free regardless of magic gear and stats due to a class feature.

By RAW, the Bite of the X spells stack with the stats gained in Wildshape. Wildshape gives you the stats of the new form, it's not a bonus, it's a replacement. The Bite of the X spells confer enhancement bonuses. So the druid that uses the Bite line of spells still doesn't have to invest in STR or DEX. And yes, that makes for one really powerful character. But again, that's because the Bite spells are themselves overpowered. The DM worried about them can simply rule they don't exist.

People look at wildshape and say it's too powerful, but they're only looking at one part of the equation.

It's like if x + y = too much, and everyone is insisting that x (wildshaping) needs to be decreased. Well, why isn't also possible that y (spellcasting) could be scaled back instead?

[Eldariel]

If the DM is allowing anything close to that kind of point buy, he doesn't care a whit about balance anyway.

You totally missed the point. The point is that a character with 1 Str shouldn't be the frontline melee warrior. The fact that Wildshape enables you to be one anyways is not fair compared to the other classes. The fact that it replaces Dex is even worse.

Due to Wildshape, a Druid only has 4 attributes on his stat sheet while the rest of the characters have 6. That just fundamentally breaks the point buy- and the roll system. Of course those stats don't come up in point buy but that has nothing to do with anything. Those stats are just the extreme examples of what the problem is all about. It should matter for an Str-focused melee type whether your Str is 1 or 18.

There's a lot more to combat than just strength. Druids have a 3/4 BAB, and a lower hit die than many martial types. They also don't have any other combat specific class abilities like rage or bonus feats or martial maneuvers. Druids do get the special attacks of the form, but those are far more limited than what martial types can choose from.

So? That doesn't make having 26 Str in a non-warrior character who put his 8 in Str any more fair. That's the unfair part - a Druid can be great Fighter with 0 investment. As to the issues you brought up:
- 3/4 BAB is mitigated by the fact that the forms you use for combat have multiple natural weapons and BAB doesn't grant you iteratives for those so you'll have just as many attacks as the warrior (generally having the additionals at higher bonus too) and you can use spells (say, Str boosters) to match the Fighters' highest To Hit scores.
- Sure, he doesn't have maneuvers or feats or Rage, but he can get comparable stat buffs from magic and his Wildshape forms already generate whatever feat he needs for whichever tactic he plans on using for any given situation. Pounce, Improved Grab, Poison and such are hard for most melee types to come by with anyways. I'm not going to argue that Warrior wouldn't have more developed options, but Druid has enough to get by for the basis of any given combat style due to the animals having those same abilities.
- Druid might only get some stuff in any given form, but on the other hand has many forms to choose from. Fighters have a hard time switching out their feats and even adepts are heavily limited in how much switching around they can do with their maneuvers. However, this is all besides the point - Wildshape breaks fundamental rules of the game (everyone having 6 stats of varying relevance) which is the principal problem.

And animal ACs are not that great, much worse than a heavily armored fighter, especially at higher levels. Sure, the Druid can cast barkskin and get wild armor, but those depend on spellcasting (in the first case, the spellcasting of the druid, in the second, the spellcasting of the armor enchanter). The DM can rule that barkskin only functions on the recipient's natural form, and that wild armor doesn't exist. Bam! Problem solved.

Yeah, if you deny Druid magic items and spellcasting you can make Wildshape fair, but that's mostly due to how magic item-focused D&D is. If you don't ban Clasped items and putting on items after Shifting and Wild Armor, you're still left with problematically strong crap compared to Fighters.

By RAW, the Bite of the X spells stack with the stats gained in Wildshape. Wildshape gives you the stats of the new form, it's not a bonus, it's a replacement. The Bite of the X spells confer enhancement bonuses. So the druid that uses the Bite line of spells still doesn't have to invest in STR or DEX. And yes, that makes for one really powerful character. But again, that's because the Bite spells are themselves overpowered. The DM worried about them can simply rule they don't exist.

What does this have to do with anything? Obviously Wildshape replaces your scores, that's the whole problem.

People look at wildshape and say it's too powerful, but they're only looking at one part of the equation.

Yes, Wildshape's power is considerably compounded by Druid being spellcaster and Wildshape Ranger is merely very strong, but that doesn't change the problem with Wildshape that it breaks the game rules much like Polymorph simply giving you something you shouldn't have.

If Wildshape worked more like the Bite-line and Shapeshift (while still maintaining the individuality of each form), it'd have the potential to be fair. As it stands, even if you scale back the numbers to make it work out, it's still a fundamental rule breaker and continues to be such as long as it enables a character with 0 investment in combat to be a capable combatant.

I have no problems with you getting something for something, but Wildshape gives you something for nothing. And for the record, I agree with you that spellcasting is still Druid's most powerful ability. I however don't agree that it makes Wildshape "Ok" as written.

[Ungvar]

You totally missed the point. The point is that a character with 1 Str shouldn't be the frontline melee warrior. The fact that Wildshape enables you to be one anyways is not fair compared to the other classes. The fact that it replaces Dex is even worse.

Not at all, my point is that characters w/ STR 1 shouldn't be allowed by the DM. They are totally unrealistic characters, even for a fantasy setting. You're letting the possibility of some uber-munchkining provide cause for nerfing a whole class ability. Don't nerf the class ability, disallow the munchkining.

Due to Wildshape, a Druid only has 4 attributes on his stat sheet while the rest of the characters have 6. That just fundamentally breaks the point buy- and the roll system. Of course those stats don't come up in point buy but that has nothing to do with anything. Those stats are just the extreme examples of what the problem is all about. It should matter for an Str-focused melee type whether your Str is 1 or 18.

It doesn't break anything: have minimum required stats for STR and DEX if you're using point buy. Say that you have to buy at least an 8 in each stat. Druids don't pop from the womb with wildshape, and even when they reach 5th level and get it, they still only have one use for one hour. If you're letting your player get away w/ 1s in anything, that's your failure as a DM. Because even if you're starting a campaign at level 15, there's no way a STR and DEX 1 druid would have survived long enough to make it that far. And if you're rolling with dice, how on earth are you going to roll a 1 with at least 3d6???

And you are VASTLY overestimating the importance of all six stats for the other classes. Every class has dump stats, even the monk.

So? That doesn't make having 26 Str in a non-warrior character who put his 8 in Str any more fair. That's the unfair part - a Druid can be great Fighter with 0 investment.

Wrong. The druid would have to also invest in buffing spells and magic armor/items to compete w/ a martial type. No, he doesn't have to put his 18 in STR and his 14 in DEX, but those are most definitely not the only investments needed to be a credible combatant. Every buff spell he prepares for himself is one less slot he can use on Vigor, or Warp Wood, or Speak to Animals, or Flamestrike and on and on.

As to the issues you brought up:
- 3/4 BAB is mitigated by the fact that the forms you use for combat have multiple natural weapons and BAB doesn't grant you iteratives for those so you'll have just as many attacks as the warrior (generally having the additionals at higher bonus too) and you can use spells (say, Str boosters) to match the Fighters' highest To Hit scores.

You might have multiple attacks, and you might not, depending on the form. Dire Bear? Sure. Dire Wolf? Nope. And again you mention that you can use spells to augment the To Hit, and again I point out that you can simply rule that selected stat buffing spells don't work on forms other than your natural form.

- Sure, he doesn't have maneuvers or feats or Rage, but he can get comparable stat buffs from magic and his Wildshape forms already generate whatever feat he needs for whichever tactic he plans on using for any given situation. Pounce, Improved Grab, Poison and such are hard for most melee types to come by with anyways. I'm not going to argue that Warrior wouldn't have more developed options, but Druid has enough to get by for the basis of any given combat style due to the animals having those same abilities.
- Druid might only get some stuff in any given form, but on the other hand has many forms to choose from. Fighters have a hard time switching out their feats and even adepts are heavily limited in how much switching around they can do with their maneuvers. However, this is all besides the point - Wildshape breaks fundamental rules of the game (everyone having 6 stats of varying relevance) which is the principal problem.

The druid still has 6 stats of varying relevance. You have to be an 8th level druid before you can spend all 24 hours of the day in wildshape. So while you're not in wildshape, that STR and DEX absolutely matters. And if you created an immobile weakling, you're as helpless as a newborn. Any DM worth his screen would choose THAT time to have the monsters attack.

And even at level 8 and above, it's not always a good idea to begin a day in wildshape unless you KNOW it's the best for what you're going to be doing that day. You're uses of wildshape are still limited.

Yeah, if you deny Druid magic items and spellcasting you can make Wildshape fair, but that's mostly due to how magic item-focused D&D is. If you don't ban Clasped items and putting on items after Shifting and Wild Armor, you're still left with problematically strong crap compared to Fighters.

That's my whole point! D&D is MAGIC focused. That's why fairness doesn't even enter into the picture. Is the power of a 15th level fighter fairly balanced w/ a 15th level wizard? Absolutely not.

And there's no way a druid would be able to afford all the differently sized items that would fit all the differently sized and shaped forms he has. And since he likely can't even put the stuff he does have on by himself, that's another limitation.

What does this have to do with anything? Obviously Wildshape replaces your scores, that's the whole problem.

It has to do with this from your previous post:

The Wildshape/Bite of the X-mechanics of giving a numeric enchantment boost instead of replacing a stat function far better as they mean a Druid needs to invest in his physicals to be a killing machine.

You seem here to be saying the combination of wildshape and using the Bite spells give an enchantment (sic) boost. I was clearing that up, if you were under that impression.

Yes, Wildshape's power is considerably compounded by Druid being spellcaster and Wildshape Ranger is merely very strong, but that doesn't change the problem with Wildshape that it breaks the game rules much like Polymorph simply giving you something you shouldn't have.

If Wildshape worked more like the Bite-line and Shapeshift (while still maintaining the individuality of each form), it'd have the potential to be fair. As it stands, even if you scale back the numbers to make it work out, it's still a fundamental rule breaker and continues to be such as long as it enables a character with 0 investment in combat to be a capable combatant.

I have no problems with you getting something for something, but Wildshape gives you something for nothing. And for the record, I agree with you that spellcasting is still Druid's most powerful ability. I however don't agree that it makes Wildshape "Ok" as written.

D&D isn't fair. Period. There is no equality among the classes. Not so long as magic is in the picture. Wildshape does not give you "something for nothing". You took Druid levels to get that, at least 5 of them. You burn a use of your limited wildshapes to obtain the benefits of one particular form at a time, not the abilities of your whole menagerie at once.

And for the record, I never said that because spellcasting is the Druid's most powerful ability, that makes wildshaping "ok" as written. I said that wildshape is ok as written, and if you want to make the druid less powerful overall, so he doesn't make the PC fighter's player unhappy, then you can tone down the druid's ACTUAL most powerful ability instead, and leave wildshape alone.

So do you agree that by some combination of limiting the spells a druid can cast, and what items/armor he can use while wildshaped, at that point wildshape as written can be ok?

[Eldariel]

Not at all, my point is that characters w/ STR 1 shouldn't be allowed by the DM. They are totally unrealistic characters, even for a fantasy setting. You're letting the possibility of some uber-munchkining provide cause for nerfing a whole class ability. Don't nerf the class ability, disallow the munchkining.

You're clinging to trivialities here. Str 3 is a possible result from 4d6b3 and still just as unfair. Str 8 being a strong melee Fighter is still unfair.

It doesn't break anything: have minimum required stats for STR and DEX if you're using point buy. Say that you have to buy at least an 8 in each stat. Druids don't pop from the womb with wildshape, and even when they reach 5th level and get it, they still only have one use for one hour. If you're letting your player get away w/ 1s in anything, that's your failure as a DM. Because even if you're starting a campaign at level 15, there's no way a STR and DEX 1 druid would have survived long enough to make it that far. And if you're rolling with dice, how on earth are you going to roll a 1 with at least 3d6???

...fine, make it 3, make it 8, none of that changes the point. You're arguing off the point here.

And you are VASTLY overestimating the importance of all six stats for the other classes. Every class has dump stats, even the monk.

Sure, and a Druid doing all roles in combat has 4 of them. Even the Wizard and the Cleric need the auxillary stats to a degree especially if multiroling in Dex/Cha/Str.

Wrong. The druid would have to also invest in buffing spells and magic armor/items to compete w/ a martial type. No, he doesn't have to put his 18 in STR and his 14 in DEX, but those are most definitely not the only investments needed to be a credible combatant. Every buff spell he prepares for himself is one less slot he can use on Vigor, or Warp Wood, or Speak to Animals, or Flamestrike and on and on.

"Wrong" is such a blunt term to use in such a semantic question. Sure, he has to buy some gear but he'd probably have that anyways, just for defensive purposes 'cause he doesn't have the illusionary/teleportation based defenses accessible to a Wizard. And spells...you're kidding, right?

You might have multiple attacks, and you might not, depending on the form. Dire Bear? Sure. Dire Wolf? Nope. And again you mention that you can use spells to augment the To Hit, and again I point out that you can simply rule that selected stat buffing spells don't work on forms other than your natural form.

Trivial.

The druid still has 6 stats of varying relevance. You have to be an 8th level druid before you can spend all 24 hours of the day in wildshape. So while you're not in wildshape, that STR and DEX absolutely matters. And if you created an immobile weakling, you're as helpless as a newborn. Any DM worth his screen would choose THAT time to have the monsters attack.

No DM should metagame to that degree; if enemies have no ways of scouting on the party and just happen on them, that should happen on a random time, not when the party is at its weakest, and if they are scouting on the party, that's party's defensive error that enables it. But yeah, you'll be Wildshaped the whole adventuring day on 7, and most on 6 - Extended Rope Trick makes the night ambushes unlikely. Also, this doesn't change anything.

And even at level 8 and above, it's not always a good idea to begin a day in wildshape unless you KNOW it's the best for what you're going to be doing that day. You're uses of wildshape are still limited.

Sure.

That's my whole point! D&D is MAGIC focused. That's why fairness doesn't even enter into the picture. Is the power of a 15th level fighter fairly balanced w/ a 15th level wizard? Absolutely not.

So because the game is unfair, we shouldn't fix the unfair parts?

And there's no way a druid would be able to afford all the differently sized items that would fit all the differently sized and shaped forms he has. And since he likely can't even put the stuff he does have on by himself, that's another limitation.

Monk's Belt doesn't really care about anything but size. Wild Armor melds. After that, it's just few stat buffs and spells and he's done. So yeah, you'll have to go with slightly lesser stat buff items if you plan on shifting a lot in combat.

You seem here to be saying the combination of wildshape and using the Bite spells give an enchantment (sic) boost. I was clearing that up, if you were under that impression.

I was referring to the change I suggested for Wildshape to function like Bites do now.

D&D isn't fair. Period. There is no equality among the classes. Not so long as magic is in the picture. Wildshape does not give you "something for nothing". You took Druid levels to get that, at least 5 of them. You burn a use of your limited wildshapes to obtain the benefits of one particular form at a time, not the abilities of your whole menagerie at once.

Meaningless.

And for the record, I never said that because spellcasting is the Druid's most powerful ability, that makes wildshaping "ok" as written. I said that wildshape is ok as written, and if you want to make the druid less powerful overall, so he doesn't make the PC fighter's player unhappy, then you can tone down the druid's ACTUAL most powerful ability instead, and leave wildshape alone.

Alright.

So do you agree that by some combination of limiting the spells a druid can cast, and what items/armor he can use while wildshaped, at that point wildshape as written can be ok?

You can make it not overshadow other characters and you can make it suck, yes. But as long as it overwrites your previous stats, it breaks rules that shouldn't be broken (and are only broken by it and the Polymorph-line). I also see no reason to allow Wildshape as written when it's so easy to just use enchantment bonuses instead making it a lot more fair and getting rid of 2 dump stats (they still aren't high priority even for combat Druid, but a low point buy Druid is then hurt at least as much as the Cleric).

[Ungvar]

You're clinging to trivialities here. Str 3 is a possible result from 4d6b3 and still just as unfair. Str 8 being a strong melee Fighter is still unfair.

That's argument by simple assertion. I've been trying to show you that the relevant comparison is total combat effectiveness, of which initial and ability-score-increase investment in STR is but a part.

...fine, make it 3, make it 8, none of that changes the point. You're arguing off the point here.

No, I was arguing against points you raised. If you now concede the points, then I accept that.

Sure, and a Druid doing all roles in combat has 4 of them. Even the Wizard and the Cleric need the auxillary stats to a degree especially if multiroling in Dex/Cha/Str.

D&D is not pure combat. Again, I pointed out how, in fact, STR and DEX of his natural form actually DO matter to a druid. And every class has certain stats that go rarely, if ever, used in combat.

"Wrong" is such a blunt term to use in such a semantic question. Sure, he has to buy some gear but he'd probably have that anyways, just for defensive purposes 'cause he doesn't have the illusionary/teleportation based defenses accessible to a Wizard. And spells...you're kidding, right?

It's neither semantic, nor a question. You made a claim that was demonstrably false. You seem to recognize that. And if you don't see a limited daily supply of spells as a resource that must be managed and allocated with care, then we're even further apart than I thought. A fighter can swing his sword as many times as he wants, for as long as he wants. There is no time limit. He has an unlimited supply. That's part of what his fighter level bought him. But a druid's Bull's Strength spell is of only minutes/level duration. If he uses the only one he's prepared when the party is fighting the kobold ambush, he might be regretting it when later in the day they face the Barbarian Bugbear troop.

Trivial.

Really? A one word response? That is an unsupported negation, and I can only assume it's because you can't support it. So, moving on...

No DM should metagame to that degree; if enemies have no ways of scouting on the party and just happen on them, that should happen on a random time, not when the party is at its weakest, and if they are scouting on the party, that's party's defensive error that enables it. But yeah, you'll be Wildshaped the whole adventuring day on 7, and most on 6 - Extended Rope Trick makes the night ambushes unlikely. Also, this doesn't change anything.

If a player is playing a STR 1 DEX 1 character, the DM should absolutely metagame that way. And the fact that you admit that there is a party defensive error, is an implicit recognition that yes, a STR1, DEX1 druid really would be limiting himself. But then, you have admitted that a couple of times now in this post.

Also, Rope Trick isn't a Druid spell, so if your arcanist doesn't have it, or if for some reason you don't have an arcanist at all, you don't have that option. And besides, what if you're having an audience with the King, and you have to be in human form? What happens if you're attacked then?

Or better yet, what about when you're in an Anti-Magic Field?

Sure.

So because the game is unfair, we shouldn't fix the unfair parts?

No, you shouldn't screw up the cool parts in the effort to make the game fair. You can "fix" the druid w/o even touching wildshape.

Monk's Belt doesn't really care about anything but size. Wild Armor melds. After that, it's just few stat buffs and spells and he's done. So yeah, you'll have to go with slightly lesser stat buff items if you plan on shifting a lot in combat.

As a druid, you change size all the freaking time. I'm not just talking about size categories, either. Just because a Dire Bear and a Dire Eagle are both Large sized, do you think they both could wear the same belt? No way are their girth's even close to each other.

But my actual point is that you CAN ban wildling clasps and wild armor.

I was referring to the change I suggested for Wildshape to function like Bites do now.

I see.

Meaningless.

Please reference my response to your previous one-word rebuttal.

You can make it not overshadow other characters and you can make it suck, yes. But as long as it overwrites your previous stats, it breaks rules that shouldn't be broken (and are only broken by it and the Polymorph-line). I also see no reason to allow Wildshape as written when it's so easy to just use enchantment bonuses instead making it a lot more fair and getting rid of 2 dump stats (they still aren't high priority even for combat Druid, but a low point buy Druid is then hurt at least as much as the Cleric).

Wildshape absolutely breaks no D&D rules whatsoever. You seem to write "it breaks rules" when what you actually mean is "I don't like it". It's perfectly valid to have those preferences, but it's not valid to expect others to treat your personal preferences as if they are the equivalent of rules. That only works if you're the DM.

I've been giving you the reason to allow wildshape as written: because it's cool, and different, and your players may enjoy doing it. I cannot fathom, nor will I speculate, why you don't think that's not an excellent reason, much less a reason at all.

[SinsI]

I'd require the Druid to intimately know the animal form he wants to assume - meaning something like several weeks of living together/nearby, and you have to do a daily "handle animal" check; after each week you do a knowledge check to see if you've studied that animal enough, with +1 cumulative bonus for each week passed.
The animals he met before the beggining of the adventure would be pretty limited - in a normal environment the Druid will only have a Brown bear form, various wolf/wolverine/eagle forms, and - if he has elf background - a Treant.
All the rest he has to encounter - and become familiar with - during the course of adventure.

That way, DM can freely control his Wild Shape power level.

[quick_comment]

I'd require the Druid to intimately know the animal form he wants to assume

Id require the druid's player to explain to us in great detail how exactly he knew he initmately.

If he can get through it without blushing, he can assume the form.

[Eldariel]

That's argument by simple assertion. I've been trying to show you that the relevant comparison is total combat effectiveness, of which initial and ability-score-increase investment in STR is but a part.

No, I was arguing against points you raised. If you now concede the points, then I accept that.

No you're not. You're saying "1 is not a realistic number", which is totally missing the point. Therefore I'm not wasting any more time on this until you either address my point or concede it.

D&D is not pure combat. Again, I pointed out how, in fact, STR and DEX of his natural form actually DO matter to a druid. And every class has certain stats that go rarely, if ever, used in combat.

Sigh, I feel like I'm hammering my head to a wall here. You just keep repeating yourself no matter what I say. The fundamental problem is that the Druid's ability scores are replaced. That's the issue. You buy 6 stats, but you can remove 2 of them.

Be it ability drain, skill check, stat checks or whatever, it's not a trivial matter - even the "dump stats" matter to a degree for every class...except the Druid.

It's neither semantic, nor a question. You made a claim that was demonstrably false. You seem to recognize that. And if you don't see a limited daily supply of spells as a resource that must be managed and allocated with care, then we're even further apart than I thought. A fighter can swing his sword as many times as he wants, for as long as he wants. There is no time limit. He has an unlimited supply. That's part of what his fighter level bought him. But a druid's Bull's Strength spell is of only minutes/level duration. If he uses the only one he's prepared when the party is fighting the kobold ambush, he might be regretting it when later in the day they face the Barbarian Bugbear troop.

Spells are a temporary investment that you can change on a whim. Attributes are a permanent investment. That's the principal difference here; when Druid wants to be a good Fighter, he burns few recurring temporary resources (and frankly, even unbuffed a Druid is a fair Fighter, and given a Lesser Metamagic Rod of Chain, he might just be able to get the buffs for free while buffing his AC) while basically any other class has to invest starting attributes to this end.

Really? A one word response? That is an unsupported negation, and I can only assume it's because you can't support it. So, moving on...

Not wasting time when you keep straying off the point. We're discussing whether Druid's Wildshape as written is too good, not which forms he should be picking to perform comparably to Fighter in combat.

Also, Rope Trick isn't a Druid spell, so if your arcanist doesn't have it, or if for some reason you don't have an arcanist at all, you don't have that option. And besides, what if you're having an audience with the King, and you have to be in human form? What happens if you're attacked then?

*shrug* Sure, there are scenarios where Druid is in his human form, and he's not the Fighter in those scenarios unless he burns an action to shift, but that doesn't change the combat prowess while he's fighting, which is what I was talking about.

Or better yet, what about when you're in an Anti-Magic Field?

What's your point? That there are scenarios where the Druid is not comparable to the Fighter?

No, you shouldn't screw up the cool parts in the effort to make the game fair. You can "fix" the druid w/o even touching wildshape.

Yeah, and how does changing few numeric factors with Wildshape screw it up?

As a druid, you change size all the freaking time. I'm not just talking about size categories, either. Just because a Dire Bear and a Dire Eagle are both Large sized, do you think they both could wear the same belt? No way are their girth's even close to each other.

But my actual point is that you CAN ban wildling clasps and wild armor.

Sure. Is that the best way to go about it though?

Please reference my response to your previous one-word rebuttal.

It's a quick way of telling you to stop straying off the point.

Wildshape absolutely breaks no D&D rules whatsoever. You seem to write "it breaks rules" when what you actually mean is "I don't like it". It's perfectly valid to have those preferences, but it's not valid to expect others to treat your personal preferences as if they are the equivalent of rules. That only works if you're the DM.

I've been giving you the reason to allow wildshape as written: because it's cool, and different, and your players may enjoy doing it. I cannot fathom, nor will I speculate, why you don't think that's not an excellent reason, much less a reason at all.

I love Wildshape. I can't fathom what makes you think otherwise; because I think it's broken as written? What I don't like is how it enables Druid to mostly ignore two stats on character creation. That's frankly completely unnecessary and easy to change.

[Gnaeus]

D&D is not pure combat. Again, I pointed out how, in fact, STR and DEX of his natural form actually DO matter to a druid. And every class has certain stats that go rarely, if ever, used in combat.

If a player is playing a STR 1 DEX 1 character, the DM should absolutely metagame that way. And the fact that you admit that there is a party defensive error, is an implicit recognition that yes, a STR1, DEX1 druid really would be limiting himself.

Really, you are just wrong. A Str 3 Dex 3 druid is a perfectly playable character after level 5. He has no problems that aren't easily surmountable with moderately intelligent play. He is VASTLY better than a fighter with 3s in any 2 stats, or even a fighter with average stats.

No, you shouldn't screw up the cool parts in the effort to make the game fair. You can "fix" the druid w/o even touching wildshape.

You know what that is called? Wildshape variant ranger. It seems that if you reduce Druid casting to almost nothing, and nerf their animal companion, you still wind up with a character who outperforms your fighter. Amazing.

As a druid, you change size all the freaking time. I'm not just talking about size categories, either. Just because a Dire Bear and a Dire Eagle are both Large sized, do you think they both could wear the same belt? No way are their girth's even close to each other.

This is so wrong its funny. You think my 4 foot tall, 250 pound dwarf and my slim willowy elf have the same girth? They are both medium. Simple answer, all magic items except arms/armor resize to fit wearer.

I've been giving you the reason to allow wildshape as written: because it's cool, and different, and your players may enjoy doing it. I cannot fathom, nor will I speculate, why you don't think that's not an excellent reason, much less a reason at all.

This part is actually right. Wildshape is a fun system. The shapechange druid isn't bad because it is a nerf to druid awesomeness, which it is, it is bad because it removes all the versatility of the ability, making it into nothing but a combat tactic.