Dervish

[Runus]

I'm joining a friend's D&D campaign (starting at level 3), and i'm wondering how i should go about making a good TWF dervish. Any help is appreciated!

[Keld Denar]

There are lots of great build ideas around. BUT FIRST, we need more info from you! Things like....what books do you have/have access to, what level you anticipate playing at, for the most part, what specific house rules does your DM play with, and what level of optimization do you which to attain?

Also, the most important question...do you know the Gospel of Tome of Battle?

[Runus]

Starting at level 3, don't know how long the campaign is going for. i have quite a few books, if not i know friends that have them. no specific house rules, as far as i know.

and no, i have not heard of Gospel Tome of Battle.

from what i HAVE been able to dig out of the forum though is that scout is a good class to get 1 level in for their ability.

[McBish]

Bard with perform dance, to be used for Bardic Music. Add Battle Dancer from Frostburn. It's fun to dance and kill stuff. Though you need a nice DM to let you dance for Bardic Music.

[Kroy]

Behold! The mighty Dervish guide.

[Keld Denar]

Yea, the most popular entry into Dervish is either Scout4/Ranger2 or Swashbuckler3/Fighter2, neither of those in that order exactly though. At level 3, you'd be pretty well served by Scout1/Ranger2, in that order, and as a human taking Dodge and Mobility at 1st level and Weapon Focus: Scimitar at 3rd. When you get to 6th level, nab Combat Expertese and at level 7 you'll be ready to enter Dervish. Take it all the way through, and finish with 4 more levels of Ranger, or the craptacular PrC Tempest. Probably Ranger though. Once you have the prereqs, try to advance your TWF tree as fast as you can. Other good feats include Staggering Strike and Elusive Target, both in CWarrior.

Note, however, that you can make a "dervish" without playing a Dervish. Using Tome of Battle: Book of Nine Swords, a Bard4/Warblade16 actually makes a pretty impressive Dervish, if you take Dragonfire Inspiration and Song of the White Raven. You dance and grant fire damage to yourself and allies, then cut up the place with Tiger Claw and Diamond Mind maneuvers. Its just as much fun, without all the dead weight of a bunch of crappy feats (Dodge, Mobility, and Combat Expertese), plus you get a lot more freedom in your chosen weapons (not everyone likes Scimitars), and you buff your party as well as your own attacks. Much more versatile, IMO, and fun. You could also play a Swordsage straight through. Desert Wind, Setting Sun, and Tiger Claw are all very "dervishy". Takes out all the pain of elaborate multiclassing just to realize your character concept. Simple, yet VERY effective.

[Runus]

so, apparently, i'm not doing that campaign anymore. But i'm doing a different one with another group..starting at level 20.

Gonna be a dervish since he won't allow me to use dancing for bardic music. But he is gonna let me use the old ambidextrous feat to reduce my TWF penality to 0 if i want. Should i do that?

I also currently have 3 feat slots open and would like some suggestions..and would like some suggestions on what items to spend my gold on. i have like 760k, or whatever you start with at level 20.

The DM also told me that there are gonna be quite a few undead and was kinda curious on if there were feats so i could critical hit or use things like skirmish on them. Thanks!

[The Glyphstone]

Swift Hunter is your friend. choose Favored Enemy Undead, then take the Swift Hunter feat to make precision damage apply vs. your favored enemies. It also makes your Scout and Ranger levels stack for Skirmish and Favored Enemy.

So at level 20, you want Ranger 2/Scout 8/Dervish 10.

[Faleldir]

Since you already have Dodge, Mobility and Combat Expertise, you might as well take Elusive Target and Improved Trip.

[Eldariel]

Stat generation method and such?

[Cieyrin]

You only really need to worry about the undead causing you problems if you have Scout levels. If you go that route, there's a weapon crystal in the Magic Item Compendium that'll make you able to do precision damage (including Skirmish from Scout) and critical Undead. I'm fairly sure it's the Greater version, which requires a weapon of +3 or higher enchantment.

I second taking Swift Hunter, though I'd suggest going more Ranger than Scout, as you get more BAB that way than the opposite.

[Kroy]

Here's one of my favorite level 20 builds: Swashbuckler 3 / fighter 2 / Rogue 1 / scout 5 / CoC 2/ dervish 5/ Occult Slayer 2
with the feats
Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus, Expeditious Dodge, Combat Expertice, Mounted Combat, Daring Outlaw, Mobility, Improved Skirmish Two Weapon Fighting, Greater TWF, Karmic Strike, and Deadly Grace.
dual-wielding scimitars with skirmish and moving while full-attacking.
dex > int > con > str > wis > cha.

[Runus]

currently, i have: swashbucker3/fighter2/dervish10/scout5

stats are: str 17, dex 19, con 18, int 17, wis 16, cha 15. that's all including the stat points from leveling

[Eldariel]

currently, i have: swashbucker3/fighter2/dervish10/scout5

stats are: str 17, dex 19, con 18, int 17, wis 16, cha 15. that's all including the stat points from leveling

Could you post your base stats? That would be vastly more beneficial. I'm absolutely certain we could split those stats better. Anyways, three ways you can go with Dervish without ToB:

Swift Hunter (Scout 4-8/Ranger 2-6/Dervish 10) - you should go all the way if you go Scout since Swift hunter allows you to ignore 3 types' critical immunity, which is an absolute requirement for a precision damager's survival.

Elven Tempest (Fighter 2/Swashbuckler 3/Dervish 10/Champion of Corellon Larethian 2/Fighter +2/X 1) - Gets you Dex and Int to damage and qualifies you for Melee Weapon Mastery; unfortunately a lot of precision damage here, but makes GREAT use of Scimitars' threat range (Dex and Int are added as standards to your damage so they're doubled)

War-Trained Dervish (Martial Rogue 2/Monk 2/Fighter 4/Ranger [or Psychic Warrior] 2/Dervish 10) - Gets you a crapton of feats, allowing you to make all the Dervish requirements not-so-crappy. Requires Strength-focus using Dex just to qualify for TWF-line feats, but gets you:
Melee Weapon Mastery
Knock-Down
Elusive Target
Double Hit > Robilar's Gambit > Karmic Strike
and miscellaneous goodies. Basically, this has very few fancy class features, but a ton of feats making most out of the crappy prerequisites Dervish suffers of, leading to surprisingly solid capabilities (though you really want to be able to Power Attack here).


I wouldn't mix #1 and #2 as you are doing; that leads to inefficient Skirmish + inefficient feat use due to the things you miss out on.

Also realize that you are a non-full caster in a level 20 world so you need to do a lot of compensation and won't be in the same realm of power as the full casters provided they know what they are doing. However, if you're ok with this, no problem. Just warning you beforehand.

[Runus]

base stats were: str 17, dex 17, con 16, int 16, wis 16, cha 15

[Runus]

and i think i'm gonna use the weapon crystal from the Magic Item Compendium for the undead thing

[Eldariel]

and i think i'm gonna use the weapon crystal from the Magic Item Compendium for the undead thing

You should still go Swift Hunter if going that road: Elementals, Plants and to lesser extent, Oozes and Constructs are all immune and you can only cover Constructs and Undead with the crystals (and even those are questionable since the RAW only states they work with Sneak Attacks so even those two are questionable).

Swift Hunter gets the same number of feats and better damage disposition. Ranger 6/Scout 4 in particular gets a great bundle of feats in Ranger 2 (TWF), Ranger 4 (use the alternative class feature in Complete Champion to convert spellcasting into bonus feats) & Ranger 6 (Improved TWF), along with Scout 4. Burning one feat on Swift Hunter, you end up with the same number as the present build (you don't need Weapon Finesse).


With those stats, you should obviously go Strength-focus due to your high Str (scratch that: high everything). You can get a Tome of Dex +2-+3 to qualify for Greater TWF no problem, without investing a single point in it. This means you can put all your level-ups to Str giving you Str of 22 already with just level-ups, and ~32 with all pumps you can put into it. Suddenly you're semi-decent at hitting things and damaging them (not least of which is thanks to your +3d6 base skirmish and +2d6 from Improved Skirmish; your total damage output is very notable).

You still get Dex 26 which gives you the capability to use Celestial Armor to its full benefits.

[Runus]

Just a few questions: how do i get +3d6 base skirmish with scout being level 4, how do i still get 26 dex, and how do i get my str to 32..belt of giant strength and..?

[Cieyrin]

Just a few questions: how do i get +3d6 base skirmish with scout being level 4, how do i still get 26 dex, and how do i get my str to 32..belt of giant strength and..?

the 3d6 skirmish is due to Swift Hunter, which lets you stack ranger and scout levels for purposes of determining skirmish and favored enemy.

Stat-wise, Eldariel is suggesting putting your 5 points of stat gain from levels into Strength, so 22, Belt +6 for 28, Tome +5 for 33. Dex is a little more difficult, though possibly not impossible. Tome +5 puts it at 22 and a Gloves +4 for 26 to hit max dex on Celestial Armor. Though it's actually probably cheaper to go Gloves +6 and just take a Tome +3.

[Eldariel]

the 3d6 skirmish is due to Swift Hunter, which lets you stack ranger and scout levels for purposes of determining skirmish and favored enemy.

Stat-wise, Eldariel is suggesting putting your 5 points of stat gain from levels into Strength, so 22, Belt +6 for 28, Tome +5 for 33. Dex is a little more difficult, though possibly not impossible. Tome +5 puts it at 22 and a Gloves +4 for 26 to hit max dex on Celestial Armor. Though it's actually probably cheaper to go Gloves +6 and just take a Tome +3.

I only suggest Tome +4 on Str, Tome +3 on Dex and Tome +2 - +4 on Con; they're expensive and as such, you don't want to get any more than you need. Dex 28 would allow you to use a Celestial Armor of Nimbleness, but that doesn't seem worth it anymore.

But yeah, that's how you get it (17+5 Level + 4 Tome + 6 Item). Single stat focus on your level-ups is your friend.

[Runus]

thanks for the help! now i just need to work on weapons and other magical goodies. probably making one of the scimitars i'm using Holy, dunno about the other yet.

and spending money isn't too much of a problem, as i have 760k to blow on items.

and do you have a link somewhere for that ranger variant that you mentioned?

[Runus]

for feats, not including the pre reqs, i took: Swift Hunter, Flay Foe, GTWF, Improved Crit, Acrobatic Strike, and Improved Skirmish

[Draz74]

Note, however, that you can make a "dervish" without playing a Dervish. Using Tome of Battle: Book of Nine Swords, a Bard4/Warblade16 actually makes a pretty impressive Dervish, if you take Dragonfire Inspiration and Song of the White Raven.

Ugh. A little complex for a first-time Tome of Battle user. And bardsong doesn't really feel very dervish-y to me (although I guess if it's Perform (dance) it could be a compelling argument ...)

You could also play a Swordsage straight through. Desert Wind, Setting Sun, and Tiger Claw are all very "dervishy". Takes out all the pain of elaborate multiclassing just to realize your character concept. Simple, yet VERY effective.

Now, that's more like it. And if you want to powergame more you can always wend your way to Stormguard Warrior with either a Warblade dip or a few feats.

[Eldariel]

for feats, not including the pre reqs, i took: Swift Hunter, Flay Foe, GTWF, Improved Crit, Acrobatic Strike, and Improved Skirmish

I wouldn't take Improved Critical and Flay Foe anymore. The rationale for Improved Critical is that it costs a lot to get Scabbards of Keen Edges...but in your wallet, it's pocket change; also, Skirmish isn't doubled on Criticals so Improved Crit is pretty weak for you. Also, I wouldn't get Acrobatic Strike; it's nice, but I think the below feats are superior. Instead, I suggest you utilize your Str with:
Improved Trip > Knock-Down (hit someone, Knock them down, get bonus attack as per Improved Trip)

Tripping opponents not only gets you nice bonuses To Hit, but also gives them penalties to attacking and movement, and in larger fights, being able to trip a ton of people around the battlefield is excellent. Get Permanencied Enlarge Person to help with Tripping & al.

Finally,I suggest you also consider Elusive Target [CWar] and Deadly Defense [CScoundrel] over Flay Foe; I think Deadly Defense is slightly better and Elusive Target offers defensive benefits.


It's a real pity you can't fit Combat Reflexes > Double Hit > Mage Slayer > Robilar's Gambit in there, but c'est la vie. Dervish-builds are feat-starved.

[Cieyrin]

and do you have a link somewhere for that ranger variant that you mentioned?

A quick Google search revelas that that ACF wasn't excerpted, so your kinda outta luck on that. Essentially, when you would get a new spell level, you get a bonus feat from a limited fighter bonus feat list.

[Eldariel]

A quick Google search revelas that that ACF wasn't excerpted, so your kinda outta luck on that. Essentially, when you would get a new spell level, you get a bonus feat from a limited fighter bonus feat list.

So in your case, you get a bonus feat on level 4. Improved Trip and Combat Expertise both just so happen to be on the list of alternatives, so it'll work out fine for you, just taking the ACF and picking one of the two feats.

[Cieyrin]

I wouldn't take Improved Critical and Flay Foe anymore. The rationale for Improved Critical is that it costs a lot to get Scabbards of Keen Edges...but in your wallet, it's pocket change; also, Skirmish isn't doubled on Criticals so Improved Crit is pretty weak for you.

Multiple Scabbards for two-weapon fighters leads to Power Up Dance syndrome, which is a tad annoying, I find. The Scabbard is also a bit over-priced for what it does. Money is not really an object for him but still. It follow the formula exactly but that doesn't really put it on the same par as the Belt of Giant Strength +4 or Gloves of Dex +4. It may be the right price if they keen whatever they hold so you don't have to spend an action to get the effect.

[Eldariel]

Multiple Scabbards for two-weapon fighters leads to Power Up Dance syndrome, which is a tad annoying, I find. The Scabbard is also a bit over-priced for what it does. Money is not really an object for him but still. It follow the formula exactly but that doesn't really put it on the same par as the Belt of Giant Strength +4 or Gloves of Dex +4. It may be the right price if they keen whatever they hold so you don't have to spend an action to get the effect.

Oh, ******* **** on a ******* ********, does it always have to be "On Command"?! Just about all of those would be just fine with just free action activation; indeed, Major Cloak of Displacement would be fair as would Scabbard and so on (though Cloak would still suffer when getting surprised, but c'est la vie).

Eh, get Keen Scimitars then. And Blessed Scabbard [MiC]. At least it doesn't have the audacity to claim to be a Standard Action to activate. ****.

[Person_Man]

May I ask if you are wedded to the Dervish prestige class, or do you just like the concept of the class?

If you definitely want to use the Dervish PrC, then several pieces of excellent advice have already been given, and I don't have much to add.

If you just like the concept, then I highly suggest that you not use the Dervish. It was a half decent PrC when Pounce was rare and 100 other supplements didn't exist. But now it's pretty much a waste of time. Weak pre-reqs. Minor bonuses. TWF math problems. And so on.

[Starbuck_II]

Also, the most important question...do you know the Gospel of Tome of Battle?

Now I'm thinking of Tome of Battle's Witness. Going door to door to spread the fun and goodness of its word.