Dread Swordsage

[Down Comforter]

So I'll soon be starting up a campaign with a group I've got at school and as my last PC died a horrible death, I'll soon be rolling up a new one. The concept I've working on lately is a Dread Necromancer/Swordsage(following the Unquiet Twilight Path) and I just need some input.

First of all, would this build even be viable? I want to focus on raising undead through the dread necro(going through at least 8th level in that class) but I'm not sure how well that balances out with the abilities of the swordsage.

Secondly, my group is about 50/50 good/neutral characters. While I'm going to be TN (follower of Boccob) I'm worried that playing a necromancer has the possibility for too much conflict IG. Especially since I'm hoping to grab the Necropolitan template as soon as I can. Thoughts? (first post, so let me know if I missed anything)

[AslanCross]

Your most immediate problem would be MAD. Swordsage depends on Wis and Dex. Con is never a good idea to dump, and Strength is good for extra damage. The Dread Necro gets bonus spells based on Cha.
If you roll really well, why not?

[ZeroNumerous]

Might I suggest Cleric instead? Wis/Str/Con focus and still retains some undead raising.

EDIT: Also, I strongly suggest against Necropolitan. Melee fighters should never lose their CON or they will suck.

[Faleldir]

Crusader would be interesting if you can get the same homebrew discipline. Their healing maneuvers are neither positive nor negative.

[Sinfire Titan]

Might I suggest Cleric instead? Wis/Str/Con focus and still retains some undead raising.

EDIT: Also, I strongly suggest against Necropolitan. Melee fighters should never lose their CON or they will suck.

Depending on the starting level, he could get an effective +6 Con mod upon being turned into a Necropolitan. If his starting level is 8th or higher, he can do this.

[Kylarra]

If you're worried about how the other players' characters will react, why not talk to them ahead of time before getting your hopes up and build planned out?

[AstralFire]

If you're worried about how the other players' characters will react, why not talk to them ahead of time before getting your hopes up and build planned out?

As often she does, Kylarra speaks sense.

[Woodsman]

See, the whole "Necromancer adventuring with good/neutral characters" has always thrown me.

It's why I tried to think of a way to work with it, especially with clerics in the party. So I rummaged through various books and found the "Deathless" type in BoED. From there, I reversed some of the Dread Necromancers abilities, and voila! The Convival Necromancer was born. Still needs a thread, though.

[Emong]

See, the whole "Necromancer adventuring with good/neutral characters" has always thrown me.

It's why I tried to think of a way to work with it, especially with clerics in the party. So I rummaged through various books and found the "Deathless" type in BoED. From there, I reversed some of the Dread Necromancers abilities, and voila! The Convivial Necromancer was born. Still needs a thread, though.

Hey, that name was my idea, you know You also left out the second 'i' in convivial. Don't worry I fixed it for you. :P

Back on topic though, why use the Unarmed Swordsage and see if your DM will allow you to use the Ascetic Mage feat to switch the Swordsage's use of Wis to Cha.

[Woodsman]

Hey, that name was my idea, you know

I know, don't worry.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

See, the whole "Necromancer adventuring with good/neutral characters" has always thrown me.

Not if you don't start from the assumption that Necromancers are Evil. There is no reason for, say, Animate Dead to be evil other than 'because WotC said so'.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

You should either use the Unarmed Swordsage variant, or ask your DM if you can replace your one martial weapon proficiency from DN with Improved Unarmed Strike. From there take the feat Ascetic Mage in Complete Adventurer to add your Cha bonus to AC instead of your Wis bonus. Just dump Wisdom, and don't bother taking any maneuvers that allow a saving throw (Wis-based DC) or have another effect based on Wisdom.

Another option would be to take the Arcane Swordsage variant found on page 20, and just learn the proper necromancy spells as maneuvers. Since a maneuver is always either supernatural or extraordinary, you wouldn't even need a costly material component for Animate Dead anymore. All of your spells/maneuvers would be Wisdom-based as normal for a Swordsage.

[Thrawn183]

I'm concerned with loss of BAB (Dread Necro has 1/2 right?)

[Omegonthesane]

Not if you don't start from the assumption that Necromancers are Evil. There is no reason for, say, Animate Dead to be evil other than 'because WotC said so'.

Create Undead is questionable, mind, because it creates sentient evil undead - but a mindless thing surely cannot be truly evil.

Ultimately the decision you have to make is "Is negative energy evil?" If it isn't, then spells cannot get the [Evil] tag for using negative energy. If it is, then mindless undead exist only to kill everything in sight and will act as such unless controlled. It's the difference between zombies being actual mindless servants and blood-frenzied killers on a tight leash.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Any spell that creates an undead creature, plus all of the Summon Undead line of spells that every DN should be extremely fond of, have the Evil descriptor. Casting such spells is an evil act, therefore any good-aligned character who follows any sort of moral code (i.e. casts divine spells) should have a problem with it. Thus, this type of character in a neutral/good-aligned party inevitably leads to conflicts unless people outright ignore either alignments or RP in general. A Belkar in the party works out because he doesn't have to give in to his evil inclinations, but an evil spellcaster who blatantly casts evil spells on a regular basis will lead to alignment issues when he's adventuring with good-aligned characters. They can ignore it or assume that the ends justify the means, but realistically a truly good-aligned character would not keep that sort company unless there was no way they could know in-character what the necromancer was up to.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Don't start with the alignment descriptors. Deathwatch has the Evil descriptor as well, and all it does is tell you who is dying. Even the Healer, a good-only class that gets a Unicorn because she's so nice, can cast it. Meanwhile, Sanctify the Wicked, a spell that wipes out someone's personality and replaces it with something that agrees with you is not only good, but Sanctified. The Alignment descriptors of spells are bunk.

[AstralFire]

To be fair, I'm pretty sure Deathwatch is generally agreed to be a mistake and it's supposed to be on a spell near it alphabetically. I do agree with you generally speaking, though.

[Down Comforter]

Well it looks like Swordsage is very much out, thanks for the input.

As for the alignment of the spells, the both myself and the character(an arcane scientist type) are a bit more utilitarian about it. Negative energy spells are just tools to be used like any other spell and aren't inherently evil. When you have wizards summoning creatures from other planes and using spells like phantasmal killer, weird, etc, summoning undead and using negative energy don't seem that different.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Don't start with the alignment descriptors. Deathwatch has the Evil descriptor as well, and all it does is tell you who is dying. Even the Healer, a good-only class that gets a Unicorn because she's so nice, can cast it. Meanwhile, Sanctify the Wicked, a spell that wipes out someone's personality and replaces it with something that agrees with you is not only good, but Sanctified. The Alignment descriptors of spells are bunk.

Alternate Intepretation: The Gods are jerks.