LA 0 Centaur attempt.

[Tempest Fennac]

I was making an LA 0 Centaur for someone yesterday, and I decided to use a version which I came up with for another thread but I'm not sure how balanced it is for an LA 0 race. Please could you guys tell me if you think this works? (By the way, I know there's an LA 0 Centaur in RotW, but I wanted to make one which was Large to begin with, but I keep thinking I nerfed it too much due to how climbing is such a huge problem for Centaurs).

+4 Str, -2 Int and Dex, Monstrous Humanoid, +1 with ranged weapons, Large sized, 40' movement, Darkvision 60', only able to use Medium Weapons, 1 1d4 hoof attack. Space: 10'. Reach: 5'.

[Salt_Crow]

Seeing how a centaur's something like reverse-powerful build (is large but acts like medium) and has tremendous trouble balancing/climbing etc, I'd say it's a decent start.

[Tetsubo 57]

I think this looks OK. I understand why you gave them Darkvision mechanically. But it doesn't make sense to me logically. Why would a race of creatures that *never* go underground have Darkvision? I think they should have Low-light vision instead.

[Tempest Fennac]

I mainly gave them that because all Monstrous Humanoids have Darkvision. Do the other features need changing at all?

[Tetsubo 57]

I mainly gave them that because all Monstrous Humanoids have Darkvision. Do the other features need changing at all?

Like I said, I understand why you gave it to them. It just doesn't seem to make sense in this case.

I think the rest looks fine.

[Evil DM Mark3]

Large size, I take it that does not include reach.

Otherwise it looks good, but a teeny bit on the strong side.

[Tempest Fennac]

Sorry about misreading your comment, Tetsubo (I thought you said you couldn't see the mechanical reasoning). What would you say is too strong about it, EvilDMMk3? (It doesn't get Reach by the way.)

[Evil DM Mark3]

The high strength and movement together make it a very VERY attractive choice for melee characters. Of course the fact that those classes are sub-par does help to even that out. This is LA0, but at the high end of that category.

[Tetsubo 57]

The high strength and movement together make it a very VERY attractive choice for melee characters. Of course the fact that those classes are sub-par does help to even that out. This is LA0, but at the high end of that category.

It's weaker than the Goliath which I think places it in the 0 LA range.

Look at the Dwarf, I don't think this Centaur is any more powerful.

[arkol]

Is this an LA0 race or an ECL0 race? Because at LA0 you could still be including te racial HD, which I think you're not, and that would make it an ECL0.

[Tempest Fennac]

I'm not including any HDs at all (I tend to only refer to LA with these things).

[Eldariel]

You should probably give them 5' reach too. The biggest thing about Large size is the 10' range. I'd also see to cutting the Str to +2, as they already have 40' movement speed (pretty huge), natural attack with a non-hand limb (huge for melee types) and darkvision (handy). But yeah, with those limitations they don't seem broken.

Note that their Large size is still huge for all forms of combat maneuvers - as it stands, they ****ing rape present options for e.g. trippers (+4 Str, +4 tripping naturally and 10' natural reach) while also gaining counter bonuses. So yeah, I strongly suggest the listed nerfs.

[bosssmiley]

Retrofit Bariaur (the goat centaurs from Planescape) as pony-centaurs. That gets you a Med size centaur-type who can fit in the tavern and climb like a SOB when confronted by stairs, inclines and such.

Dump their powerful charge and spell resistance abilities (keep the Quadruped racial quality: it's not a big deal, being comparable to the dwarven Living Cuboid quality), make them a monstrous humanoid instead of an outsider, call them lesser centaurs and you've a wholly tenable 1 HD/LA+0 race.

Bariaur is in Planar Handbook for reference.

[Tempest Fennac]

They don't have reach (I didn't put it in the description due to mentioing the fact that they use Medium weapons). Also, I think it would be weak if those nerfs were put in place due to the drawbacks it already has.

I've seen that race already, Boss (I don't have access to the book and I'm not sure if it's on Crystal Keep; I'll check once I've clarified some things in my 1st post).

EDIT: It's not on Crystal Keep.

[Riffington]

natural attack with a non-hand limb (huge for melee types)

Are both of you assuming that a centaur Barbarian 6 gets a full attack that looks like +6 Greatsword/+1 Greatsword/+6 Hoof?

[woodenbandman]

Any extra attack is useful. Why do 50 damage when you could do 63 damage?

EDIT: and at high levels, your attack routine looks like +34/+29/+29/+24/+19, which is 1 hit likely and 3 hits not uncommon.

[Eldariel]

Are both of you assuming that a centaur Barbarian 6 gets a full attack that looks like +6 Greatsword/+1 Greatsword/+6 Hoof?

No, +6 Greatsword/+1 Greatsword/+1 Hoof. However, Multiattack makes it +6 Greatsword/+1 Greatsword/+4 Hoof. That's just standard functioning of natural attacks; presently Centaurs get two Hooves and you can check their full attack entry for confirmation. Also, Hooves can be used to make attacks during Trample which is extremely useful, making Trample almost worth something sometimes.

But yeah, natural non-hand attacks are awesome; even Warforged's Slam kicks ass and it takes a handslot (on level 1, you can carry a heavy shield and use your Slam for damage given a high-Str type thus getting you 1.5x Str AND shield). The additional problem here is, of course, with just one natural attack the Centaur gets 1.5x Str on the Hoof-attack too. It definitely warrants spelling out that he only adds 1x Str on the Hoof-attack.

[Tempest Fennac]

I decided to go with just 1 hoof attack for my version because I thought 2 would be too powerful.

[Tetsubo 57]

I decided to go with just 1 hoof attack for my version because I thought 2 would be too powerful.

Which makes sense and brings it in line with the Warforge slam attack. Take Improve Natural Attack if you want more damage output and maybe a custom feat to allow a second hoof attack.