3.5.- Eight times your weight.

[Captain Alien]

Spell descriptions of Enlarge Person, and the Expansion power say that your character grows to the next Size Category, wich means that small and medium characters, this means increasing two times your original size, but... Why do them also state that the characters weigh eight times their original weight when they grow? Is it related to Science? A mistake? When you grow a size category, you can carry two times your capacity, so this would mean that, sometimes, you would not be able to carry your own equipment, while you were able when you were smaller.

Also, is there any spell that allows increasing two or more size categories?

[Catch]

Yes, it's based on science. It's also the reason why giant robots are infeasible.

[paddyfool]

It's assuming a rough mathematical approximation of height x2, width (side-to-side) x2, and thickness (front-to-back), x2 = x8. "Realistically", to be able to function effectively at 8 times the weight (never mind with gear of 8 times the weight), your character would have to change in structure rather more seriously, as Catch suggests. But then, this is magic, so what the hell.

[Tengu_temp]

Imagine a 1x1x1 feet cube of some material that weights 1 pound. Let's cast Enlarge Person Cube on it - it's 2x2x2 feet now. How many 1x1x1 cubes fit inside a 2x2x2 one? Precisely eight. Thus, the mass increases eighthold.

Also, is there any spell that allows increasing two or more size categories?

Expansion, if psionics count. Apart from that, Wu Jen has one, although I forgot its name - Giant Size?

[Jack_Simth]

Yeah, it's related to science. If you take a 1x1x1 cube, and double it to a 2x2x2 cube, it's now got eight times the volume it had previously. At the same density, it'll be eight times the weight, as well.

And yes, Enlarge Person will occasionally pin someone under their own equipment if your DM looks at things closely.

[Ernir]

Also, is there any spell that allows increasing two or more size categories?

Giant Size, a Wu Jen spell, and an augmented Expansion power come to mind.


EDIT: The ninjas!

[Saph]

Is this more or less accurate, biologically? If you double a creature's height, what would be a ballpark figure for its carrying capacity increase?

- Saph

[Riffington]

Is this more or less accurate, biologically? If you double a creature's height, what would be a ballpark figure for its carrying capacity increase?

- Saph

As a ballpark, strength grows with the square of height and weight grows with the cube of height. So quadrupling would be the best ballpark for the carrying capacity increase.

[Mr.Moron]

Now, all you need to do is figure out a good use for weighing that much. A character with a heavy build and heavy armor can wind up weighing over a ton.

Imagine you're a paladin, druid or ranger with a fairly hefty special mount/animal companion. You share spells with them when you have enlarge person cast on you, since share spells ignore typing.


2600lb man riding on 28.000lb Dire Lion? Gotta be something you can do with all that heft directly under your control. It's even a light load for the critter at that size with the STR enhacement.

Or if it was an elephant.. or.. a T-Rex.

[daggaz]

The classic answer is, of course, to drop yourself on the BBEG.

[paddyfool]

Is this more or less accurate, biologically? If you double a creature's height, what would be a ballpark figure for its carrying capacity increase?

- Saph

The classic problem is that with your weight growth being linear growth cubed, and your strength being linear growth squared, you end up being crippled by your own weight. Hence, partly, the classic story of how industrially farmed chickens today get broken legs so often (bred, fed and often drugged for rapid weight gain and greater final size, but the legs can't keep up).

A secondary problem involves heat. Your surface area, through which you primarily lose heat, again only increases by the square of your linear growth, which very much alters the temperature balance of your body. With the scales concerned, it's not as major, but with expand person, you'd want to shed your clothing and get pretty sweaty under previously comfortable conditions; and with shrink person, you'd want to put a warm coat on.

But once again, this is magic, not science. All this stuff can be handwaved easily.

[tyckspoon]

And yes, Enlarge Person will occasionally pin someone under their own equipment if your DM looks at things closely.

Except Large gear only weighs twice as much as Medium gear, per the weapon and armor rules. The weights of equipment scale exactly to the increased carrying capacity of larger creatures, with the exception of Huge, where the gear weighs 5x but the carrying capacity is only 4x.. but Huge and bigger creatures are probably getting into the tremendous strength section of the carrying rules, which provides another 4x increase in capacity for every 10 points over 20.

[Captain Alien]

Oh boy. Science.

The rules are not consequent with themselves. Large races do not weigh eight times humans do. A Large greatsword does not weigh eight times a Medium sword.

Should I make characters weigh two times their original weight while using those spells so they avoid jumping off a cliff to damage their enemies? Or breaking their own legs?

Thank you everyone. It is interesting to see how people disagree so much with one single rule, because it helps to solve the problem the rule creates.

[Dervag]

Oh boy. Science.

The rules are not consequent with themselves. Large races do not weigh eight times humans do. A Large greatsword does not weigh eight times a Medium sword.

As I understand it, the largest "Large" creatures aren't twice human size; they're more like 50% larger or so. Therefore, it's no wonder that they don't weigh eight times as much. An ogre is about 50% larger than a largish six-foot adult human male, so he should weigh about 3.375 times more, maybe a little more if he's proportionately stockier and more heavily muscled.

I speculate that maybe giants' superhuman resistance to damage comes not from their size, but from the fact that their muscles and bones are made of something rather stronger, pound for pound, than human tissue. For a twenty-foot giant to be able to move and act like a scaled-up human, he's going to need flesh and bone that are at least twice as strong, and probably four times as strong.

[Yora]

Do elephants have different muscle tissue than humans or cats?

[paddyfool]

As I understand it, the largest "Large" creatures aren't twice human size; they're more like 50% larger or so. Therefore, it's no wonder that they don't weigh eight times as much. An ogre is about 50% larger than a largish six-foot adult human male, so he should weigh about 3.375 times more, maybe a little more if he's proportionately stockier and more heavily muscled.

There's really a spectrum within the "large" size category.

Adult ogre: 9 to 10 feet tall
Adult hill giant: 10 1/2 feet tall
Adult stone giant: 12 feet tall
Adult male fire giant: 12 feet tall
Adult male frost giant: 15 feet tall

Incidentally, I just noticed that an adult male fire giant apparently weighs in at 7000 pounds. If he was medium sized (divide by 8), the equivalent wound be 875 pounds. These chaps are big.

Given that an average adult male human is a little under 6', to say that these large, human shaped monsters are about double human height isn't all that inaccurate.

I speculate that maybe giants' superhuman resistance to damage comes not from their size, but from the fact that their muscles and bones are made of something rather stronger, pound for pound, than human tissue. For a twenty-foot giant to be able to move and act like a scaled-up human, he's going to need flesh and bone that are at least twice as strong, and probably four times as strong.

Nice fluff-wise, too. You could spin it as some kind of divine heritage, magical heritage, etc.; like the titans of greek myth, or the ice giants of norse myth, giants in this setting would be more than human in more ways than one.

[paddyfool]

Do elephants have different muscle tissue than humans or cats?

I'm not sure, but they certainly have a very different skeleton - much thicker bones compared to their length, fused vertebrae in the "upper" spine to support the head, etc.

[Droodle]

And yes, Enlarge Person will occasionally pin someone under their own equipment if your DM looks at things closely.

...although I'd recommend against looking at things quite so closely. Just as a hafling can carry far less weight than a human with the same strength score can, presumably because he's so small, It's reasonable to argue that that Enlarging a human a size or two would increase his carrying capacity beyond what his strength score would necessarily dictate. RAW may or may not address this, but fit it doesn't, I'd argue that this is only because Giants aren't a core PC race.

[Jack_Simth]

Except Large gear only weighs twice as much as Medium gear, per the weapon and armor rules. The weights of equipment scale exactly to the increased carrying capacity of larger creatures, with the exception of Huge, where the gear weighs 5x but the carrying capacity is only 4x.. but Huge and bigger creatures are probably getting into the tremendous strength section of the carrying rules, which provides another 4x increase in capacity for every 10 points over 20.

Only sort of.

Purchasing Large/Small equipment that was designed as Large equipment generally weighs in at either double/half (weapons and armor), by 4's (most worn mundane equipment and most foodstuffs), or doesn't scale with the intended character's size (the rest of the mundane equipment).

However, the equipment enlarged/shrunk by an Enlarge/Reduce Person spell (or comperable effect) is not the same as getting Large/Small equipment off the rack. The Enlarge Person spell lists what it does to the person - *2 size, *8 weight - and it also specifies that "All equipment worn or carried by a creature is similarly enlarged by the spell." As written, despite the fact that a n off-the-shelf Large suit of Fullplate weighs in at 100 lbs, a suit of fullplate that became Large through the Enlarge Person spell weighs in at 400 lbs.

...although I'd recommend against looking at things quite so closely. Just as a hafling can carry far less weight than a human with the same strength score can, presumably because he's so small, It's reasonable to argue that that Enlarging a human a size or two would increase his carrying capacity beyond what his strength score would necessarily dictate. RAW may or may not address this, but fit it doesn't, I'd argue that this is only because Giants aren't a core PC race.

Actually, it does - quite clearly, in the Carrying Capacity section on Bigger and Smaller creatures:

The figures on Table: Carrying Capacity are for Medium bipedal creatures. A larger bipedal creature can carry more weight depending on its size category, as follows: Large ×2, Huge ×4, Gargantuan ×8, Colossal ×16. A smaller creature can carry less weight depending on its size category, as follows: Small ×¾, Tiny ×½, Diminutive ×¼, Fine ×1/8.

Quadrupeds can carry heavier loads than characters can. Instead of the multipliers given above, multiply the value corresponding to the creature’s Strength score from Table: Carrying Capacity by the appropriate modifier, as follows: Fine ×¼, Diminutive ×½, Tiny ×¾, Small ×1, Medium ×1½, Large ×3, Huge ×6, Gargantuan ×12, Colossal ×24.

So that Strength-12 Medium Dwarven Cleric in Fullplate with a Heavy Steel Shield, hit with Enlarge Person becomes a Strength 14 Large Dwarven Cleric in Fullplate; max load is 350 lbs, the "stagger around" carrying capacity is 700 pounds. And the Fullplate weighs in at 400 lbs, while the shield weighs in at 120 pounds - which puts that Dwarven Cleric at a considerable disadvantage (into the "stagger around" weight only). To get that Fullplate + Heavy Shield down to just under max load, the cleric's pre-Enlarge Person strength would need to be 15 ... and that's not including the weight of a backpack, holy symbol, cloak of resistance, and so on.

[Tetsubo 57]

I'm not sure, but they certainly have a very different skeleton - much thicker bones compared to their length, fused vertebrae in the "upper" spine to support the head, etc.

There is a reason that they have legs like pillars. They need them. That's why without magic giant creatures can't exist. Double an elephants size and it's legs would have to become correspondingly thicker, or snap like twigs. The dinosaurs hit the upper limit for land animals. That's the reason the biggest animals in history are whales.

[Droodle]

As written, despite the fact that an off-the-shelf Large suit of Fullplate weighs in at 100 lbs, a suit of fullplate that became Large through the Enlarge Person spell weighs in at 400 lbs.

This seems like a pretty good rule to ignore, if you ask me.

[Fhaolan]

Do elephants have different muscle tissue than humans or cats?

Their skeletons are structured quite differently, which allows them to carry a much heavier mass. Also, comparing an elephant to a... cow, for instance, the skeleton itself is more massive relative to total body weight. 17% or more vs 10% or less.

Also, an elephant doesn't weigh as much as it would if it was just a cow scaled up. The skull, for instance, has sections that are sponge-like rather than solid, making it lighter. Structural differences.

Another example, take dogs. The big dogs like mastifs aren't just toy terriers scaled up, there are structual differences between them to be able to carry the larger mass. And even then, the big dogs really aren't as modified as the *should* be to carry that mass, which is why the biggies tend to have shorter lives and suffer from joint and organ failure more than the teenies do. That's because they are that big size due to breeding programs that increased size faster than the necessary structural changes. The same thing occurs in draft horses and farm animals and *humans*.

[Tetsubo 57]

This seems like a pretty good rule to ignore, if you ask me.

I see your point but it does make sense. If you just make a suit of armour larger but don't increase its thickness it becomes much weaker. So it should weigh more. I'm not sure how much more though. We don't have any large humanoids with which to test this theory with. Any structural engineers in the house?

[Jack_Simth]

This seems like a pretty good rule to ignore, if you ask me.

Maybe. But that's how things are written.

[Milskidasith]

There are a bunch of other stupid rules, and the encumbrance rules in general are crap. Plus, your carrying capacity should quadruple, not double, when you double in size.

[TSED]

This difference in mass is why insects can do feats of strength that are AMAZING when compared to larger animals. Ant carrying capacity, for example, makes everyone who's ever lived jealous.

[Rion]

I see your point but it does make sense. If you just make a suit of armour larger but don't increase its thickness it becomes much weaker. So it should weigh more. I'm not sure how much more though. We don't have any large humanoids with which to test this theory with. Any structural engineers in the house?

I'm not someone with a lot of knowledge about how this works, but if armour becomes thicker I would assume it also becomes stronger, which means that if Large is identical to Medium armour except from size then it would be stronger. If it thinner it might be relatively weaker than Medium armour (like a muscular small human is relatively stronger than a muscular large human), but since we aren't comparing them relatively Large armour could still be as strong as Medium armour while being thinner than scaled up Medium armour.

[Epinephrine]

The classic problem is that with your weight growth being linear growth cubed, and your strength being linear growth squared, you end up being crippled by your own weight.
<snip>
A secondary problem involves heat.

Not to mention oxygen transfer. You need proportially larger lungs; the surface area of the lungs increased at a lesser rate than the increase in volume. Enlarge person would result in having to keep your activity level down lest you pass out due to your decreased oxygen availability from the now-undersized lungs.

[ashmanonar]

Do elephants have different muscle tissue than humans or cats?

They have denser bones, and thicker hide. They also cannot run as fast, inch for inch, as humans; running as fast as their 4 legs would dictate would injure them, possibly mortally.

[Jack_Simth]

Not to mention oxygen transfer. You need proportially larger lungs; the surface area of the lungs increased at a lesser rate than the increase in volume. Enlarge person would result in having to keep your activity level down lest you pass out due to your decreased oxygen availability from the now-undersized lungs.

Heh, yeah, that too. So when you get bigger, you end up with more muscle mass, but....
1) Much of it is used in carrying your own weight (and past a point, it can't even do that anymore)
2) You can't necessarily use it all due to heat and air transfer issues.

You know, that does make the Enlarge Person spell, as written, seem somewhat reasonable, doesn't it?