Is 3.5 Obsolete? (Purpose is NOT 4/3.5 ed-bashing)

[The Neoclassic]

As stated in the title, I didn't start this thread to gripe about 4e or encourage others to do the same (or complain about 3.5e either). I'm merely curious if the D&D gaming community generally considers 3.5 obsolete now. Are there any statistics or anecdotal evidence (oxymoron, I know) about how many people have switched over to 4e and how many stuck with 3.5? I still see a lot of people homebrewing and discussing 3.5 material here, but I'm unsure whether that's because most like 3.5 or my eyes just skim over the [4e] threads too quickly. Is this community representative of other D&D communities in that regard? Just wondering, as it is mildly disheartening to think that very soon no one will want to look at my homebrew (or anyone else's) because 3.5 is "obsolete."

[Frosty]

At least on this board, the number of 3.5 threads outnumber the number of 4e threads by a staggering amount. Same thing with the PBP games here, but that may be a function of the fact that playing 4e with Play by Post sucks bullocks because combat WILL takes months. My friends and I are still playing 3.5 (and L5R) and will not be moving to 4th ed anytime soon, if ever.

[Mystic Muse]

I played 4th first and like 3.5 better. in my mind 3.5 is NOT obsolete

[raitalin]

I think a lot more people are sticking with 3.5 than they did with 2nd ed., and with Pathfinder out there books will continue to be published that are compatible with the rules system, so I'd say no.

[AstralFire]

While 4E is alive and well, 3E is as well, and the somewhat popular Star Wars Saga Edition game has more in common with 3E than 4E. When you throw in the fact that the SRD is free and that 3E was the introductory point for MANY people into P&P gaming entirely, I suspect that 3E will have a sizable community for decades to come.

Heck, we have some people here who are members of message boards devoted to playing OD&D, AD&D 1e, and AD&D 2e, and most of those didn't have the relative industry splash that 3E did.

[Zergrusheddie]

WotC does, which is why 3.5 material will not be coming out. However, there are many people who do not like the new systems and will stay in 3.5 for a long time. Considering that Paizo is capitalizing on the fact that people still like 3.5 and are making their own system which is very similar to 3.5, I would not consider 3.5 obsolete.

Edit: I've been Ninja'd!

[Halna LeGavilk]

In all the groups I play in, we always play 3.5. It's still going strong.

[Oslecamo]

4e, altough it has it's strenghts, also offered several delusions to D&D players, so many people decided to stick with 3.X.

And as the OP himself pointed out, there's plenty of people still doing material for it.

Seriously, even with just the official books, one has material to entertain himself for years. Add in homebrew stuff and you really don't need to switch to a new version, specially one that cut down half the stuff you liked.

[Fhaolan]

My group plays primarily 3.0. And I know several groups that play 2nd edition, 1st edition, and even Classic.

Just like there are several MMOs that are considered 'obsolete' that are actually still being played such as Everquest and it's ilk, it's kinda hard to use 'is it still being played' as a criteria.

[Mando Knight]

Technically, it's obsolete. The company with the legal rights to produce and troubleshoot the system has officially discontinued the product, and any new material and support for it will be 3rd party and/or user created.

However, "obsolete" does not mean "worthless." The system will remain as useful as long as you wish to use it. However, without a dedicated company producing the system and developing new material for it, it will be replaced by later editions, just as 1st and 2nd edition AD&D were by 3.X.

[mistformsquirrl]

I would have to say generally no.

Obsolete is a term I generally associate with being able to compare hard numbers, and having one of the contenders being simply superior in every facet; while the older model is inferior and thus obsolete.

An RPG... doesn't really work that way. I mean yes - it can fall into disuse because people prefer the new edition; but even then I generally have a hard time seeing that as obsolescence. After all, an obsolete car will *never* run as well as whatever the improved version. On the other hand an old RPG, even one that's fallen out of favor, can always be picked back up and may well end up giving just as much enjoyment as a newer game. (Fun is just too hard a thing to compute really - too many factors. It's why you've got people who still prefer AD&D to 3.5e for example; and while I don't agree, it doesn't mean the older system is necessarily inferior - it just handles things differently.)

From my perspective, you really can't compare 3.5e and 4e side-by-side and say, objectively, one is superior or inferior. They each have their quirks, and thus they're going to have adherents who simply don't like the other edition - and neither is, in my view, wrong.

I personally play both; though I prefer 3.5e.

[Gorbash]

Seriously, even with just the official books, one has material to entertain himself for years.

Quoted for truth.

When you take into account that one regular campaign lasts for years (if it doesn't fall apart for some reason, which doesn't happen in my group), and a staggering number of classes and prestige classes that 3.5 offers, I don't see the point of ever playing another system. There are so many characters/builds I want to play, but will never be able to simple because there isn't enough time in the world, so surely I won't reduce that time by switching to something else.

it will be replaced by later editions

Why would it be, when it's fine as it is? 3.5 has 100+ splatbooks, half a dozen huge settings, numerous web enhancement, dedicated communities everywhere, it's self-sustaining as it is. It doesn't need any new material. And it will take time for those editions to reach the number of splatbooks that 3.5 has.

[Shraik]

I see in my gaming region, 3.5 being distinguished for a reason that does not exist. I think 3.5 is far from obsolete, but 4.0 will grow. I grew up with 3.5(started DnD at age twelve with 3.5). It's got it's complications, but can be simple enough to be ******' awesome either way. I think 4.0 is too much like W.o.W with the power system. I really do not like the powers. Otherwise, I am cool.
Hell, in my opinion, star wars D6 isn't even obsolete. THe community is still very large after 13 years of no publsihing, and I know more people who play d6 then d20 or saga.

[T.G. Oskar]

Well, there's two important points to consider.

The first is that, given how the term of "edition" is used now for most books, D&D 3.5 and D&D 4th Edition aren't actually even editions, per se. You could argue that OD&D, AD&D and 3rd Edition are actual "editions" because despite the changes, most of the bulk of the abilities remained the same. Each edition changed a bulk of things (AD&D added weapon proficiencies, 3rd Edition replaced THAC0 and added feats and skills), but generally behaved in a same way. 4th Edition isn't a real edition in the sense of the term, but rather an entirely different version of the game. The rules, while the core mechanic remained the same, changed pretty violently.

I speak of this because, generally, the new edition of any book usually has the same content with one or two changes, some proofreading, a change in how the content is placed, and perhaps one or two updates. This doesn't apply directly to D&D, but it gives you an idea of the magnitude of the changes. 4th Edition, while using some familiar terms and rulings, is so different to 3rd Edition that it may very well be considered a different game altogether.

Which is basically the second point. 4th Edition can't be made backwards compatible with 3rd Edition, nor the latter can be updated to the former. You can make some work with alternate class features, the rules for monsters/items/spells, and Prestige Classes to adapt material from the 1st and 2nd Edition, but the way 4th Edition presents material is so strikingly different that it's too difficult to adapt one thing to the other, aside from what the developers already did (and even then, it's mostly spell-wise most of the time) So, it's often best to consider both "editions" as different games altogether. In that sense, 4th Edition can't make 3.5 obsolete, as it's the rough equivalent to replacing Windows XP with the latest version of Mac OS X. It's almost two different systems, but holding some similarities between each other. Even if WotC isn't making any more material for 3.5, the fact that it left the Open Game License pretty much ensured the edition won't stop receiving support.

I would argue that 3.5 was made obsolete if the change to 4th Edition resembled the change from 1st Edition to 2nd Edition of Exalted and WoD: it's the same system, pretty much word by word, but with a very limited set of changes and a retcon of the entire story which makes the first (at least in WoD) obsolete in the literal sense.

[jmbrown]

I think a lot more people are sticking with 3.5 than they did with 2nd ed., and with Pathfinder out there books will continue to be published that are compatible with the rules system, so I'd say no.

Every new edition of DnD has brought with it criticism and a split in fanbase. When 3.0 came out people still clung to 2E because the system was already established and had tons of material available. Once 3.5 came out a few years later and 2E books were hard to find everyone switched over.

I predict 3.5 will have a half-life of at least 2 more years. After that majority of the players will move on like all things.

[AslanCross]

I'm sticking to 3.5, and so is my group. We might try 4E, but none of us really like it enough to shift. Also, 3.5 books are selling dirt-cheap now, so I'm going to invest in them instead.

[Thurbane]

I can only speak for my group(s), which are most definitely sticking with 3.5 - possbly moving to Pathfinder at some stage.

[Eldariel]

We'll be 3.5ing; we just don't feel 4.0 after the initial attempts. It's worth noting that there's a major difference between 3.5 and 2.0-conversions; broadband internet is now practically everywhere which means that 3.5 books will be easily available for anyone interested forever and ever.

That removes the necessity of transiting just due to new books and is like to keep many more people in 3.5 than with the last transition. It's also worth noting that 4.0 hasn't sold as well as 3.X or AD&D in their first years, which would suggest that more people are sticking over than on the previous switches.


But I don't have enough data to properly analyze this stuff so I'll just stop here.

[RTGoodman]

Of the people I've ever played D&D with, it seems about evenly split, if not erring on the side of 4E being the predominant version nowadays. However, with the folks I know online but haven't played with, it's slightly more biased towards the 3.x end.

In general, I think 3.x still probably has more people that play it more often or prefer it, but it also has had several more years to get followers. For folks that don't follow D&D stuff online, that don't buy new books more than a couple of times a year, and so on, they still haven't even looked at 4E yet, probably. On the other hand, given another year or so, I think the split will probably be closer to 50/50, eventually moving towards a 4E focus, but that'll be at least a couple of years.

[Mando Knight]

Why would it be, when it's fine as it is? 3.5 has 100+ splatbooks, half a dozen huge settings, numerous web enhancement, dedicated communities everywhere, it's self-sustaining as it is. It doesn't need any new material. And it will take time for those editions to reach the number of splatbooks that 3.5 has.

It isn't self-sustaining. All of the official material for it (including the PHB and DMG, which contain rules that the SRD doesn't have) is out of print. The old books will wear out. Eventually, it will become like 2nd edition AD&D: It will have a large fanbase, but one that is definitely aging and nearly stagnant. Thanks to being the first major edition of D&D released after the internet boom, it will survive longer in a healthier form than 2E did, but it will show its age some time. It might take a decade. Might take two or three.

Regardless, 3.5 won't be the primary fantasy RPG system forever, especially since it isn't perfect. I suspect that 4E will gain traction as the most popular edition of D&D within four years, if 5E isn't released in that time, or if it isn't already.

However, just as 3rd Edition was the first one released after the internet "boom," 4th Edition has the dubious status as the first edition of D&D released after data piracy became "popular," which cuts into its sales significantly (There are pdfs of the books available on torrents and such for free, and I know people who don't pay for the books because of that.), which also cuts into both WotC's profits and into the development team's paycheck. It also didn't help 4E that the US economy kinda collapsed in the fourth quarter of '08, cutting into everyone's "other stuff" budget... which tends to include games.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Plenty of ways to get your hand on a digital version of the 3.5 books, so even as the physical copies degrade, anyone with a computer and a printer can make their own versions.

[Tetsubo 57]

I am a 3.5 loyalist. I don't consider it obsolete in the least.

And thanks to the SRD and the OGL we can keep playing 3.5 forever. Not even mentioning Pathfinder. Or any of the OGL based game systems out there.

Long live 3.5! :)

[erikun]

Is 3.5 Obsolete?

No, and that is a bit of an odd question if you really think about it.

D&D 3.0 could be considered obsolete by D&D 3.5, as 3.5 was basically an update and revision of the 3.0 rules. Pretty much everything that was 3.0 has been updated into the 3.5 ruleset, or can be converted easily. There isn't much 3.0 played anymore; it's been obsoleted by 3.5.

The same can't be said about AD&D 2nd edition. D&D 3.5 isn't really an update of 2nd edition, it's more like a similar system with 2nd edition material translated into it. If you ask to play 3.0, you'll have people who think of 3.5 instead. If you ask to play 2nd, you aren't likely to have many people mistake it for 3.5.

Much like 2nd edition, 3.5 isn't going to be obsoleted until something comes along to render it obsolete. (Sorry, Pathfinder, you aren't there yet.) It does have it's uses, namely a free online SRD, but it hasn't suddenly gone away or become "updated" to 4E.

I'd like to note that two different editions can be popularly played and enjoyed side-by-side. The current situation with World of Darkness comes to mind, where a number of players who play the older editions (generally Werewolf or Mage) have no problems playing other newer edition games, namely Chameleon. Yes, it's an overgeneralization, but I see a lot of people who will play Werewolf: The Apocalypse right next to Hunter: The Vigil, and they don't see a problem with it.

[ericgrau]

Plenty of people are still playing 2e even, and I'd say the number sticking with 3.5 are a much greater number. So ya, 3.5 is gonna stick around.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

Plenty of ways to get your hand on a digital version of the 3.5 books, so even as the physical copies degrade, anyone with a computer and a printer can make their own versions.

It doesn't even require a printer. Everyone in my group has a laptop handy at games; since we're at a college that sells its endorsed laptop at a steep discount, even people who didn't show up with laptops have them now. Even ruling out the two people who download books in a dubiously legal fashion, the rest of us have enough PDF books among us that getting access to, say, Cityscape or Weapons of Legacy or another somewhat-obscure book is as easy as walking across the room. If you really want a hardcover copy you can get one, but if the cost of that is too much you can do without.

[RandomNPC]

3.5 is still being printed by some groups is it not?
seriously is it?

anyway, it took me long enough to find a group and i had to teach them all. no more updated systems for me. besides BESM runds d20 and i just got that book. and there are so many more books to get.

i'll update when i can pickup some cheap used 5th edition books. if i like the edition.

[Tetsubo 57]

3.5 is still being printed by some groups is it not?
seriously is it?

anyway, it took me long enough to find a group and i had to teach them all. no more updated systems for me. besides BESM runds d20 and i just got that book. and there are so many more books to get.

i'll update when i can pickup some cheap used 5th edition books. if i like the edition.

I've been picking up cheap used books on Amazon and B&N online. I just paid $2 for a copy of D20 Trigun. Lots of good stuff out there to fill out my gaming shelves for 3.5. I'll be buying books for years.

[Doc Roc]

I still run it quite extensively.

[ghost_warlock]

It isn't self-sustaining. All of the official material for it (including the PHB and DMG, which contain rules that the SRD doesn't have) is out of print. The old books will wear out. Eventually, it will become like 2nd edition AD&D: It will have a large fanbase, but one that is definitely aging and nearly stagnant. Thanks to being the first major edition of D&D released after the internet boom, it will survive longer in a healthier form than 2E did, but it will show its age some time. It might take a decade. Might take two or three.

3.5 also has a few things going for it to keep it thriving long past the point where the books wear out - free online SRD and a plethera of books in .pdf format that can be copied and reprinted by anyone with the file who's willing to invest the resources in ink, paper, and time.

4e will also benefit from this once it becomes 'obsolete.' Heck, electronic versions of 4e books were available even before the physical copies were distributed.

It's true that you can find electronic 2e and even OD&D & 1e books online, too, but in my experience they're much harder to obtain, especially when you're looking for a specific, obscure book.

[Badgercloak]

No. Just like 2nd AD&D before it no new 3.5 material will be published by its parent company yet people will still continue to play it.