Which (Core) spells are broken?

[GoatToucher]

Forget about splats, as all they seem to do it add more broke-ass spells to the mix.

Please note spell type (Divine/Arcane) and level. A (brief) explanation as to why it is broken would be nice.

[BobVosh]

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showp...52&postcount=9

A fairly good list. Feel free to ask about any, but take too long to list why each is too good.

[Gralamin]

In addition to the above, spells like Blindness / Deafness that give a permanent debilitating effect at low levels that can only be cured by more magic should go.

[GoatToucher]

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showp...52&postcount=9

A fairly good list. Feel free to ask about any, but take too long to list why each is too good.

Thank you, but I have no idea why at least some of them are on the list. Alarm? If someone could indulge me/us/the curious, I would appreciate it.

Blindness / Deafness

CL3 - Sor/Wiz2

Second level?!? Wow.

And not even a ray. Just :wiggles fingers: and FAPPO!

[Edit: Not even finger wiggling. Just a word.]

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Eliminate the spells with no defense(MDJ, Holy Word, Solid Fog)
Eliminate the spells that have undefined or poorly-considered effects(AMF, image-line)
Eliminate the spells that obviate entire skills(Detect Traps, Knock)
Eliminate the spells that eliminate entire mechanics(FoM)
Eliminate the spells that make entire schools useless(Shadow Evoc, Mindblank, True Seeing, Energy Immunity)
Eliminate the spells that make the caster immune to non-casters(Fly, Wind Wall)
Eliminate the spells with permanent benefits but no meaningful cost(Wall of X)
Eliminate the spells that give you control of NPCs for any serious duration(Dominate, Planar Binding/Ally)
Eliminate the spells that break the action mechanics(Contingency, Summon X)

Now you've eliminated half of core, most of the options that players want to use, and still missed something.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

We've still got Mage Armor and Haste.

[jmbrown]

Thank you, but I have no idea why at least some of them are on the list. Alarm? If someone could indulge me/us/the curious, I would appreciate it.

It's an undetectable suspense breaker. Alarm's cheap, it can be made permanent, and it can't be detected. A caster could use detect magic + spellcraft to learn an area is warded with an abjuration spell but you can never be for certain it's an alarm spell. You can't bypass alarm by conventional means (going ethereal but how many characters can do that?) aside from dispelling it and a mental alarm can't be silence.

As a DM, I love effin' with alarm. Most animals are tiny or larger so I built a custom "Alarm Buster" table that gives a percentage based on the area that a harmless animal will trigger the alarm. In a heavily forested area at night there's pretty much a 90% chance per hour that a tiny animal will enter your camp site especially if you have a fire going or left food out.

We've still got Mage Armor and Haste.

I don't have them on me but I remember mage armor in base 3.0 was caster only and haste fatigued you afterward. Those are good fixes IMO.

[AstralFire]

As a DM, I love effin' with alarm. Most animals are tiny or larger so I built a custom "Alarm Buster" table that gives a percentage based on the area that a harmless animal will trigger the alarm. In a heavily forested area at night there's pretty much a 90% chance per hour that a tiny animal will enter your camp site especially if you have a fire going or left food out.

That. Is. Brilliant.

[Gralamin]

Eliminate the spells with no defense(MDJ, Holy Word, Solid Fog)
Eliminate the spells that have undefined or poorly-considered effects(AMF, image-line)
Eliminate the spells that obviate entire skills(Detect Traps, Knock)
Eliminate the spells that eliminate entire mechanics(FoM)
Eliminate the spells that make entire schools useless(Shadow Evoc, Mindblank, True Seeing, Energy Immunity)
Eliminate the spells that make the caster immune to non-casters(Fly, Wind Wall)
Eliminate the spells with permanent benefits but no meaningful cost(Wall of X)
Eliminate the spells that give you control of NPCs for any serious duration(Dominate, Planar Binding/Ally)
Eliminate the spells that break the action mechanics(Contingency, Summon X)

Now you've eliminated half of core, most of the options that players want to use, and still missed something.

And Hilariously, Evocation is almost Untouched.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Contingency, Wall of Force, Wall of Ice, Wall of Fire, Wind Wall are all evocation.

[tyckspoon]

...Wall of Force, Wall of Ice, Wall of Fire, Wind Wall are all evocation.

The Evocation walls aren't permanent effects and mostly don't deserve to get screwed with. Wind Wall could use an alteration to the "no, you just miss" effect on the most common ranged weapons, but that's not enough reason to kill the entire spell.

[Saph]

Honestly, the only one of those that I'd say is problematic is Contingency, and that because you get into arguments about what counts as a trigger.

If I had to make a list, it would be:

Broken Core Spells

2 - Alter Self (possibly)
4 - Polymorph
8 - Polymorph Any Object
9 - Shapechange
9 - Gate
9 - Time Stop

. . . and that would be it.

Note that broken isn't the same as overpowered. Glitterdust is overpowered because it does too many things for a level 2 spell (blinds, breaks Hide, breaks Invis, multi-target, no-SR) but it's not actually broken because it's easy to defend against. Similarly, Alter Self is merely very good if you're just using basic forms and gaining disguise or a Swim speed, but becomes broken if your players start splatbook diving for obscure forms.

When I'm DMing I generally don't ban any core spells except for the above, and I usually find things work okay.

- Saph

[Tempest Fennac]

I'd include all save or die spells due to how they reduce the game down to solely hoping that the victim rolls low enough to be taken out instantly, which seems potentially overpowered to me (that sort of spell, Contingency and the Celerity line are the only spells I tend to ban from my games). Is Time Stop really that bad? It only really looks useful for unloading buff spells quickly to me. (I've not really had much experience with Polymorph spells but I'd probably ban those if players were abusing them.)

[SethFahad]

Broken spells?

One word, 5 letters:

KNOCK

because a 3rd level wizard can open the lock DC=40+++ that a 10th level rogue with special tools and training can't.

As SK Reynolds said:

If the god of locks comes to the Material Plane and uses his godly power to lock a lock, Wizbo the 3rd level wizard can still get through it automatically with the spell.

Italics mine.

[Doc Roc]

Okay, notes from the front:

I can tell you wall of force is actually worthy of being on the list.
Timestop, timestop, timestop, and also timestop.
Alarm is detectable, and you can resolve its nature using spellcraft with arcane sight. But that's not really core. So you are correct.

Core is a terrible stillbirth of a beautiful game.


Knock doesn't necessarily handle warded doors or, as worded doors with multiple locking sequences, or locking mechanisms that aren't part of the door.

[Saph]

I'd include all save or die spells due to how they reduce the game down to solely hoping that the victim rolls low enough to be taken out instantly, which seems potentially overpowered to me (that sort of spell, Contingency and the Celerity line are the only spells I tend to ban from my games).

Bear in mind that a critical from a Barbarian's Greataxe or a full attack from a TWFing Rogue can kill a monster in a single round too, with a little luck. So effectively melee characters have SoDs too, it's just that they roll the dice instead of their opponents. With that in mind, I don't think spells like Slay Living are unreasonable, especially since many creatures are immune to them.

Is Time Stop really that bad? It only really looks useful for unloading buff spells quickly to me. (I've not really had much experience with Polymorph spells but I'd probably ban those if players were abusing them.)

It breaks the action economy rules by giving you more turns than your opponent. In general, that's a bit too strong for common use unless you're fighting opponents that can do the same thing.

KNOCK

*shrug* This one I don't care about. If the wizard wants to spend his 2nd-level spell slots duplicating what the Rogue can do for free, I don't see a problem with that. Generally it's something you do when your party doesn't have a skillmonkey.

- Saph

[tyckspoon]

I'd include all save or die spells due to how they reduce the game down to solely hoping that the victim rolls low enough to be taken out instantly, which seems potentially overpowered to me (that sort of spell, Contingency and the Celerity line are the only spells I tend to ban from my games). Is Time Stop really that bad? It only really looks useful for unloading buff spells quickly to me. (I've not really had much experience with Polymorph spells but I'd probably ban those if players were abusing them.)

Depends on how many non-targeted durable spells you have at your disposal. Do remember that Time Stop also permits summoning; one of the classic applications is to just dump as many Summon Monster (Y) spells as you have time for (or multiple Gates, if you're in a serious OH CRAP situation.) If you happen to know the Delay Spell metamagic, you can use that to put down a number of blasts (same way the Delayed Blast Fireball bomb works). For very high levels, a Spell Compendium classic is stacking Maws of Chaos. Pretty much any mechanic that lets you turn one action into multiple actions is going to be somewhere between very, very powerful and flat out broken unless it is so severely restricted that it doesn't actually let you do anything.

[Doc Roc]

Timestop is......


I...

Tim...

I...

Look, timestop is the single best spell in the game in the opinion of many experienced optimizers. Here is a weak and low-end example of what it can do.

I want to make it clear that I intentionally picked a poor means by which to ruin Eurus's day. I could do much worse with core.

[Kylarra]

Broken spells?

One word, 5 letters:

KNOCK

because a 3rd level wizard can open the lock DC=40+++ that a 10th level rogue with special tools and training can't.

As SK Reynolds said:
Italics mine.

Technically if you invented a spell that wasn't arcane lock and used it to prevent entry, knock doesn't effect it.

[Zergrusheddie]

Find Traps is not broken at all. It is Cleric only, and it just lets you search for traps. You don't automatically find them. So you cast a 2nd level spell to be able to search for traps at a 1/2 CL bonus. Search is cross class for a Cleric and Clerics tend not to have the most skill points because Wisdom, Strength, and Constitution are usually better.

Solid Fog has a defense in Freedom of Movement. If you think that Freedom of Movement is too powerful because it makes you immune to grapple, than make it do it doesn't make you immune to grapple or only grants you a bonus.

Blindness/Deafness is too low of a level. The funny thing is that the level 3 Wizard hit you with it but the level 5 Cleric is the only one that can remove it. However, B/D is only nasty against players because who cares if some mook is permanently Blinded? The odds are he is going to die in that combat so being permanently blind is the least of his concerns.

Polymorph is pretty bad but Shapechange is more broken. There are very few spells that can match: "I have Fast Healing 20 (I change forms as a free action to gain 20 HP), a strength of 37, AC of 40, can still cast spells, and Regeneration 5/ Silver AND Good. I'm a Pit Fiend lulz!"

The most broken spell? Gate. Hands down.
DM: "You just made 17th level. What are you going to do?"
Wizard: "I cast Gate. I Gate in an Efreeti. I Wish for a +10 Intellect Headband, a +1 Stat add, and a Candle of Invocation."
DM: "I don't remember the Candles. What do they do again?"
Wizard: "Nothing really, but they can cast Gate. I Gate in an Efreeti!"

Any DM will stop this, but it is still broken only because it is possible. I believe the term is RAWtarded?

[Pharaoh's Fist]

10th level rogue should be able to hit DC 40.

+7 dex, +2 tools, +13 ranks = +22 modifier.

You open it on a roll of 18 to 20.

[AstralFire]

Saph?

Can I ask the etymology of 'broken' and 'overpowered' for you?

I use broken to mean that something is erratically inconsistent in strength, overpowered to mean consistently too good.

I see broken used as a synonym for overpowered often.

I think I understand how you're distinguishing broken from overpowered, (broken is uncounterable OP, OP is... uh... OP) but not why those words got assigned those definitions and it's breaking my brain.

Silly thing to ask about, I know, but I am a silly person.

[SethFahad]

Mr Sean K. Reynolds adds 2 more spells:

See invisibility automatically pierces any invisibility spell. Wizbo automatically sees right through a 20th-level sorcerer's casting of invisibility, even if the sorcerer uses Heighten Spell to make his invisibility a 9th-level spell.
If Sneakofficus, god of stealth and hidden things, turns invisible with his invisibility spell-like ability, Wizbo sees him.

Protection from evil blocks any attempt to exercise magical mental control over the subject. This means that a 1st-level commoner with this spell is immune to the mental influence of the most powerful advanced aboleth in the world using its enslave ability.
He's immune to the influence of Dracula's vampire domination ability.
He's immune to Satan trying to possess him.

[Nightson]

Knock is fortunately not hard to fix, simply have it substitute a spellcraft check for the open lock check.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

If some of the examples that have just come up are to be taken seriously, wizard spells that do anything but damage are broken.

[AstralFire]

If some of the examples that have just come up are to be taken seriously, wizard spells that do anything but damage are broken.

People are reacting to the fact that Wizards can do all of these things moreso than that they can do them, I think. Even if they don't realize it.

[Tempest Fennac]

Thanks for explaining about Time Stop (I forgot about it still being possible to summon).

[Pharaoh's Fist]

People are reacting to the fact that Wizards can do all of these things moreso than that they can do them, I think. Even if they don't realize it.

Clarify your Pelor loving pronouns.

[SethFahad]

10th level rogue should be able to hit DC 40.

+7 dex, +2 tools, +13 ranks = +22 modifier.

You open it on a roll of 18 to 20.

...yeah right...+30 DEX... meh

[AstralFire]

Clarify your Pelor loving pronouns.

People are reacting to the fact that Wizards can do all of these things moreso than that Wizards can do any of them, I believe. Even if the people complaining don't realize it.