Natural Weapon Bite use

[Diadoch]

Hi everyone, I`m new here and have question that is giving me and my DM some trouble. I already looked trough the forum but haven`t found that it was asked before.

This is the problem:
My character is Sthein from Bastards and bloodlines that my DM allowed me to use in 3.5 game. Sthein has natural bite attack and rules say:
"Sthein may make natural bite attack instead of wielding a weapon."

Does that mean that she can bite only if she holds nothing in her both hands (gave her Mighty Nagaika and Heavy Steel Shield) or if her weapon hand is free or if making full attack bite instead of using a weapon?

My DM keeps saying that I have to designate primary and secondary weapon, but since she has only one attack per round can I just use bite or Nagaika as primary weapon for that round as necessary?

Thanks in advance!

[Rixx]

I would rule that the bite takes the place of a weapon strike - if your BAB is high enough that you get more than one attack per round, then you can strike with a weapon and then bite as a full attack action.

[Salt_Crow]

IIRC, there are natural weapons that can be used as secondary attacks (which mention it in the description) and those that cannot. Sthein's bite attack would indicate that it's latter. So you cannot use it as a secondary natural attack, but holding something in your hands do not matter as long as your mouth is free to bite the chunk of flesh off of your opponents.

[Tempest Fennac]

I agree with Salt Crow here (I'd let you use a Bite with a full attack with a penalty equal to your maximum attack bonus -5). What is a Sthein exactly?

[Melamoto]

I agree with Salt Crow here (I'd let you use a Bite with a full attack with a penalty equal to your maximum attack bonus -5). What is a Sthein exactly?

Elf-Snake Mermaid style

[Diadoch]

According to Bastards and bloodlines, there is theory that Elves and Naga were one race long ago and they can have offspring together. That offspring is Sthein, Elven female with serpentine lower body, blue, yellow, green or black skin, same hair, blue, yellow or red eyes without iris, big canines, slightly forked tounge. They have some great bonuses (again that is 3.0 rules, we think that bloodline 3.5 rules are too weak) like: +2 STR, +2 CON, +2 DEX, +4 CHA, Large creature, +1 natural AC, base speed 40ft, natural bite attack + poison, humanoid alternate form, immune to sleep, +4 ST against enchantment spells and effects, level adjustment +4.

But back to bite. So basically, bite can`t be used as secondary attack (so when I get two attacks, I can only make 2xNagaika attack), but can be used as normal single attack but with -5 on max attack bonus no matter what she holds in hands.
How about attack of opportunity? Can I make it with bite attack (again with -5?), since I can`t have AOO with Nagaika?

[KillianHawkeye]

You don't take a -5 if you're only attacking with your Bite. And if what Salt_Crow says is right, then it just means you have to choose between attacking with your Bite or attacking with your weapon from turn to turn.

You are definitely allowed to hold weapons and still use your Bite attack.

[Irreverent Fool]

I assume that you cannot use your bite as a secondary natural attack because it involves use of the character's full body, putting the arms out of position to do damage with a weapon.

obnoxious
sig

[Person_Man]

If you have a secondary natural attack, you can use it as part of a full attack at -5, IN ADDITION TO your primary attack routine. You can reduce it to -2 if you can qualify for and take the Multiattack feat, or -0 if you can then take the Improved Multiattack feat (Draconomicon, Savage Species).

However, its important to note that the controlling factor over whether or not you can use a natural attack as a secondary attack in addition to your normal attack routine is the wording of its source, and not any consistent or logical rule. A Lizardfolk has 2 claws and a bite. A Werebear has 2 claws and a bite. But a Lizardfolk using a sword only gets a secondary bite attack when it uses a weapon, whereas the Werebear gets the bite, a claw, and the weapon. I know that it makes no sense. That's just the way its written. If the rules for the race or bloodline that you're doing isn't clear, it's a DM call.

While the damage from natural attacks are typically quite low, they can be combined with Power Attack, Leap Attack+Pounce, and Touch of Golden Ice (Book of Exhalted Deeds, evil creatures must Save or be ravaged by 1d4 Dex damage).

Natural attacks also qualify for Sneak Attack (when all other normal conditions are met) and Weapon Finesse, making it an attractive option for Rogue builds who are willing to risk their necks on the front line of combat (which I wouldn't suggest).

[Diadoch]

If you have a secondary natural attack, you can use it as part of a full attack at -5, IN ADDITION TO your primary attack routine. You can reduce it to -2 if you can qualify for and take the Multiattack feat, or -0 if you can then take the Improved Multiattack feat (Draconomicon, Savage Species).

OK, that is for when I get aditional attacks per round. But now, while I have only one attack I can choose if I want to make Whip attack or bite attack at full attack bonus.

While the damage from natural attacks are typically quite low, they can be combined with Power Attack, Leap Attack+Pounce, and Touch of Golden Ice (Book of Exhalted Deeds, evil creatures must Save or be ravaged by 1d4 Dex damage).

Well, Sthein has bite damage 1d8 +1.5 x 5(STR) and does poison damage on fortitude DC18 for 1d4 rounds of stun primary and secundary damage. It looks rather nice to me so I`m posting here to see how well I can utilise it ingame. Biggest question now is can I make attacks of opportunity with bite?

[Jair Barik]

Give him a mouthpick weapon and go to town on the enemy

[Eldariel]

By default, you can use natural weapons as a secondary attack in addition to primary manufactured (or primary natural) attacks. It's like two-weapon fighting, except without the feat investment.

However, it seems like that race specifically spells out this weapon functions differently and like arm claw attacks, can only be taken when you aren't using the said limb for manufactured attacks (makes no sense given that you don't wield your weapons in your mouth, but them's the rules).


So yeah, by default a level 1 Fighter in such a race could make attacks with sword and then secondary Bite at -5 (without any iteratives from high BAB; on BAB 6 he'd attack with Sword at +6/+1 and Bite at +1; naturals are different and don't receive iteratives, and you always get that one attack even with 0 BAB). However, this ability specifically spells out it's different.