3.5- Why use a single class spell caster?

[Captain Alien]

Some PrCs offer full spellcasting, while giving some cool abilities. Then why would a sorcerer, for example, want to be a 20th level sorcerer, while obtaining just spells and upgrades for the familiar, instead of taking some levels in a cool prestige class, that let obtain full spellcasting as well, but also useful, unique abilities? Why are these full spellcasting PrCs not overpowered?

Also, the mystic theurge allows a character to be a 18th wizard with all the cleric's spells, when she is at 20th level. Wizard's BAB and Saving throws are exactly the same as mystic theurge. How could sacrificing a better BAB (cleric's), the Turn Undead ability and two levels make a character that can do almost everything underpowered?

Oh, and, would a Favored Soul/Sorcerer/Mystic Theurge be a good option? It does not as good idea as a Wizard/Cleric/Mystic Theurge.

[Eloel]

Some PrCs offer full spellcasting, while giving some cool abilities. Then why would a sorcerer, for example, want to be a 20th level sorcerer, while obtaining just spells and upgrades for the familiar, instead of taking some levels in a cool prestige class, that let obtain full spellcasting as well, but also useful, unique abilities?

Single-Class Sorcerers don't exist. They should PrC.

Why are these full spellcasting PrCs not overpowered?

They are. It's just that there are more overpowered PrCs.

Also, the mystic theurge allows a character to be a 18th wizard with all the cleric's spells, when she is at 20th level.

Err, no. MT need 3rd level Wiz & 3rd level Cleric. At L16, you're 13th level in each. Since there's no other PrC that fully advances both, you're stuck with the lost caster levels on both sides, and you can't get 9th level spells on both sides. (You can get it on 1 side, but then the other side is stuck at 7th level spells) You're also losing caster levels, which means your spells are less effective and easier to dispel. You also have only 1 9th level slot. Grats, you can kill someone, once. And that is only if you are lucky and enemy doesn't make the abysmally low saving throw, or hasn't shot you down first. You need to split your stats between Int and Wis, and thus ignore Con & Dex, which means low AC and VERY LOW HP. 8 Con, with d4 HD gives you 1.5HP on average per level. 30HP over 20 levels. Your dear friend Barbarian with 16 Con has 190HP. Your single-classed wizard who could spare point-buy on Con for 16 Con has 110HP, almost 4x you.

Wizard's BAB and Saving throws are exactly the same as mystic theurge. How could sacrificing a better BAB (cleric's), the Turn Undead ability and two levels make a character that can do almost everything underpowered?

3 levels. And it's not 'almost everything', you don't get 9th level spells.

Oh, and, would a Favored Soul/Sorcerer/Mystic Theurge be a good option? It does not as good idea as a Wizard/Cleric/Mystic Theurge.

It might be on par with melee. You don't even get 8th level spells though.

[mikej]

Some PrCs offer full spellcasting, while giving some cool abilities. Then why would a sorcerer, for example, want to be a 20th level sorcerer, while obtaining just spells and upgrades for the familiar, instead of taking some levels in a cool prestige class, that let obtain full spellcasting as well, but also useful, unique abilities? Why are these full spellcasting PrCs not overpowered?

Generally, if I'm going to go through the effort and often useless requirements, i'd better have a some what decent PrC. Also, why would any smart player enter such a horrible PrC, if the end result was worse than the entering class.

[Fiendish_Dire_Moose]

Basically, what the gentleman/lady two before me said.
Mystic Theurge is good, but there are better, much better.
And as the person said, there are no level 20 Sorcerers. It just wouldn't make sense. There are so many PrCs that will raise your casting and grant you more abilities that taking 20 levels in sorcerer or PrC-ing is a non choice. Not multi classing into a PrC is just silly for a sorc.

[Captain Alien]

Oh, I see. Thanks.

Now, I have a sorcerer in my party. What PrC should I suggest him? We have access to CM, CA, CW, LoM, BoED, BoVD, PHII, CS, Miniatures Handbook, UA, and those from the 3.0 ed (If there is a PrC from another sourcebook that is especially cool, I might give it a try).

He is Neutral, so BoED and BoVD may not work. He is also an aasimar. I want him to have a good build, but I do not know what might be suitable. Any suggestion?

Thank you all, again.

[mikej]

Mage of the Arcane Order [CA] is fairly decent. It's worth it for the Sorcerer IMO. Other than that, there is the Incantatrix, but that's in the the Player's Guide to Faerun. What does this player hope to achieve with his character?

[Captain Alien]

What does this player hope to achieve with his character?

Well, this is the first time he makes an arcane caster, but I guess he does not know what he really wants. He is still at the first level, so there is still time. Probably evocation, and he might take some useful conjuration or transmutation spells, because he likes to give me headaches with the most versatile ones.

[Fiendish_Dire_Moose]

Conjugal sorcerer? (Yes I did that on purpose) Throw the alienist at him. Summoning useless and freaky sins against god is always fun.

[Tyrrell]

In my present game we have a wamage/favored soul Mystic theurge. we're 9th level my character is throwing around 5th level spells, his is highest level spell is second. While this is the level of highest futility for him , his characters available spells will always be as a caster levels lower than the other spellcasters. I've got Baleful polymorph while he's got scorching ray.


On the other hand I don't find that the arguments about not getting ninth level spells are at all persuasive to me. Everyone's experiences are different but I've been playing for 30 years now and I've never had a character who progressed from low levels to having ninth level spells. Games end too quickly and in my experience most stories can be told before the characters acquire enough experience to reach 17th level. Worrying about the high level end game is pointless if you're never going to get there.

[Indon]

Are there any Sor/Wiz builds that go without PrC's to focus on the familiar, I wonder?

In my present game we have a wamage/favored soul Mystic theurge. we're 9th level my character is throwing around 5th level spells, his is highest level spell is second. While this is the level of highest futility for him , his characters available spells will always be as a caster levels lower than the other spellcasters. I've got Baleful polymorph while he's got scorching ray.

To be frank, if you're going to be a blaster caster - and that's obviously his intention with Warmage - Scorching Ray should keep for a long time.

Blasting is more caster-level oriented, rather than spell-level oriented, since blasting spells don't significantly increase in power with spell level. In fact, I'd say that the most you lose is the ability to easily metamagic lower-level spells.

[Frog Dragon]

Oh, I see. Thanks.

Now, I have a sorcerer in my party. What PrC should I suggest him? We have access to CM, CA, CW, LoM, BoED, BoVD, PHII, CS, Miniatures Handbook, UA, and those from the 3.0 ed (If there is a PrC from another sourcebook that is especially cool, I might give it a try).

He is Neutral, so BoED and BoVD may not work. He is also an aasimar. I want him to have a good build, but I do not know what might be suitable. Any suggestion?

Thank you all, again.

Arf. If you had CSCO I'd suggest Malconvoker. It's totally awesome though it loses one caster level. The class also gives you a few extra spells for free which is nice for a sorc. Th class is basically cheating demons and devils into service and doing acceptable or even good deeds. If you can get your hands on CSCO, I recommend.

[Oslecamo]

And that is only if you are lucky and enemy doesn't make the abysmally low saving throw, or hasn't shot you down first. You need to split your stats between Int and Wis, and thus ignore Con & Dex, which means low AC and VERY LOW HP. 8 Con, with d4 HD gives you 1.5HP on average per level. 30HP over 20 levels. Your dear friend Barbarian with 16 Con has 190HP. Your single-classed wizard who could spare point-buy on Con for 16 Con has 110HP, almost 4x you.

Not really. You only need uber int, you don't need uber wis. The really good cleric spells are almost all buffs or summoning stuff, so you can get away with a 17 wisdom. Add a periapft of wisdom +6, and you can get away with just starting 11 wis, and focus the remaining points in int and con.

Dex and AC bonuses are laughably easy to obtain between all your spell variety, three of your levels are actually d8s, and hell, between cleric and wizard defensive buffs, your oponents will need a miracle to hit you, let alone kill you, if you for example take that cleric spell that you cannot be killed by damage for X time.

All in all, not too shabby really.

[Captain Alien]

Arf. If you had CSCO I'd suggest Malconvoker. It's totally awesome though it loses one caster level. The class also gives you a few extra spells for free which is nice for a sorc. Th class is basically cheating demons and devils into service and doing acceptable or even good deeds. If you can get your hands on CSCO, I recommend.

Malconvoker is also in Complete Scoundrel, which I have already read, so it is viable. It seems pretty good, and the player might like it. I shall tell him about.

Throw the alienist at him. Summoning useless and freaky sins against god is always fun.

Oh, he is some kind of badass Legal Neutral sorcerer. It does not fit at all. In fact, I told him about the alienist, but he did not seem interested. Thanks anyway.

Now I have to check that Arcane Order guy.

Do you really think it is that terrible, losing three levels of caster level?

[Sinfire Titan]

Are there any Sor/Wiz builds that go without PrC's to focus on the familiar, I wonder?

Wizard to about 5th level, or Wizard 4/Sorcerer 1/Ultimate Magus. Gets the most important ability the familiar can have: Share Spells. After that, PrC out and just ignore familiar advancement (as the Skills/BAB/HP continue to increase normally no matter what class you are).


A few Hexblade and Duskblade builds take Obtain/Improved Familiar. Seul Arcanamach too. Warblade 2/Crusader 2/Unarmed Swordsage 2/Seul 5/Abjurant Champion 5/Master of Nine 4 makes for a solid Familiar/Martial Adept build (the casting on it is OK).

[Telonius]

Malconvoker is also in Complete Scoundrel, which I have already read, so it is viable. It seems pretty good, and the player might like it. I shall tell him about.


Oh, he is some kind of badass Legal Neutral sorcerer. It does not fit at all. In fact, I told him about the alienist, but he did not seem interested. Thanks anyway.

Now I have to check that Arcane Order guy.

Do you really think it is that terrible, losing three levels of caster level?

In terms of optimization, yes. In this particular case, it sounds like quite a few of the players are just starting out, so it might not be all that bad comparatively. Remember, as DM one of your jobs is to give everybody a chance to shine. If your Fighter is going for the full Weapon Specialization tree instead of Shock Trooper, and your Cleric hasn't figured out what Divine Metamagic is capable of, and nobody has heard of Pun-Pun, then sure! Losing a couple caster levels isn't going to make the character unplayable. In fact, it might be balancing. But in a "normal" (for the boards) game, yeah, it's terrible.

[valadil]

Wizards could conceivably go for the bonus feats every 5 levels. They probably wouldn't do this all the way to twenty, but it might be worth holding out to hit wiz 5 or 10 instead of taking a PrC a level or two early.

Sorcerers have no excuse, if they're trying to optimize.

The last time I played 3.5 was for a one shot. I knew the GM but none of the players. He told me they didn't power game. They had room for an arcane caster so I played a straight sorcerer. It was suboptimal but it was still effective and certainly not gimped. I played a single class caster to keep from irritating casual players. The character was still fun and I didn't overshadow anybody (although I did deliberately switch to buffing/debuffing just to make everyone else could get some kills).

[Epinephrine]

Indeed, there have been some discussions suggesting that any PrC that is meant to progress full casters should begin with a non-casting level. As it is the vast majority (especially the arcane PrCs - less so those for clerics, and certainly druidic PrCs often drop the power level by losing some iconic druidic abilities) of PrCs represent not a specialization but a clear increase in power, on a set of classes that does not require such an increase.

[Eldariel]

Better way to fix it is to give Wizard/Sorc/Cleric some abilities across the levels. None too huge, but enough that giving them up for PrCs hurts. It also makes Wizard 20/Sorc 20/Cleric 20 feel more interesting as you gain something besides casting.

For example, giving Sorcs (Magic Incarnates, inherent casters, etc.) ways to manipulate spells naturally along with metamagic boosts and such makes a ****ton of sense. Giving Clerics some further abilities to use with their channeled divine energy (turning) along with some Domain enhancement makes likewise a ton of sense. And giving Wizards better means to switch around their spells, preparing ones in empty slots faster and some pseudo-spontaneity also works out.

Feels more interesting than saying "everything loses a CL" to me; that keeps PrCs from being suboptimal (though Incantatrix and Initiate could both lose CL and still rock).

[Kylarra]

Are there any Sor/Wiz builds that go without PrC's to focus on the familiar, I wonder?

If you go for that route, you'd be better off trading off your familiar for an ACF and then burning a feat on Obtain Familiar later so that all your arcane classes stack for the purposes of that familiar.

[zarakstan]

Yes, no spell caster should single class. My favorite build for wizard at the moment is wizard 7 fate spinner 3 initiate of the seven fold veil 7 archmage 3

[Keld Denar]

A few Hexblade and Duskblade builds take Obtain/Improved Familiar. Seul Arcanamach too. Warblade 2/Crusader 2/Unarmed Swordsage 2/Seul 5/Abjurant Champion 5/Master of Nine 4 makes for a solid Familiar/Martial Adept build (the casting on it is OK).

Blasphemy Sinfire. I thought you were more experienced than that...There IS NO 5th level of Seul Arcanamach. Its a dead level that doesn't even advance BAB. Blech. The more optimial format for SA on a melee chassis is Suel4/AbjChamp5/Spellsword1.

Anyway, while Sorcerer20 is rather lackluster, it also has the blessing of not needing any prereqs. MotAO, noted as one of the best Sorcerer PrCs requires 3 of your 7-8 feats, 2 of which are pretty much burnt in effigy (Cooperative Spell and Arcane Preperation). That means that unless you are human, you don't get a feat of your own choosing until 9th level. That also leaves you pretty much unable to enter Archmage until 18th level if you dump the rest of your feats into prereqs for it, and don't even start with a PrC like Loremaster or such. I'd rather take Sorcerer20 and pick the feats I want then be pigeonholed into taking certain feats for the better part of my adventuring carreer for just about any PrC but Incantatrix, which is just a plain silly PrC anyway...

[Gnaeus]

Yes, no spell caster should single class. My favorite build for wizard at the moment is wizard 7 fate spinner 3 initiate of the seven fold veil 7 archmage 3

Druid 20 is a great build. At least as good if not better than any of its PRCs except for Planar Shepherd.

Maybe you mean no arcane caster should single class.

[Jergmo]

Oh, I see. Thanks.

Now, I have a sorcerer in my party. What PrC should I suggest him? We have access to CM, CA, CW, LoM, BoED, BoVD, PHII, CS, Miniatures Handbook, UA, and those from the 3.0 ed (If there is a PrC from another sourcebook that is especially cool, I might give it a try).

He is Neutral, so BoED and BoVD may not work. He is also an aasimar. I want him to have a good build, but I do not know what might be suitable. Any suggestion?

Thank you all, again.

Fatespinner is definitely a good choice and has very easy prereqs. All you've gotta get that you wouldn't have already is 5 ranks in Profession(Gambler). The 5th level loses a caster level, but the first 4 are still worth taking. Fatespinner can also be very good depending on how you look at it for Lawful characters. Don't leave things to chance, make it work for you.

[Myrmex]

Cerebremancer is a pretty good dual caster progression class if you use Erudite and an early entry trick.

Heh heh, Erudite.

[Rixx]

From what I can tell, Pathfinder makes single-class casters (and single-class core characters) a lot more worthwhile. Sorcerers in particular get the uber-cool bloodline powers.

[Mongoose87]

From what I can tell, Pathfinder makes single-class casters (and single-class core characters) a lot more worthwhile. Sorcerers in particular get the uber-cool bloodline powers.

Pathfinder makes all of the single-classes generally more worthwhile, except, IRRC, the bard,

[Kallisti]

I'd avoid Mage of the Arcane Order if your DM cares at all about Rp'ing, because it does require you to find and join the Arcane Order, in theory. it's a decent PrC, but that's too much work. And it charges you a fee to join/be in, which your sorceror might not think is a good trade. And it requires Cooperative Spell and one other useless feat.

Now, Malconvoker, I could believe. Or Incantatrix. They both rock. Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil can be a lot of fun. Possibly the Sorcerous Specialization alternate class feature and then Red Wizard, if you can find a way to justify it in-character. High-charisma Sorceror+Leadership+Circle Magic=Unholy DC's. Elemental Savant is fair for a blaster, but not incredibly useful. Archmage, absolutely.

I'd go with either the malconvoker or the Savant, then multiclass to Archmage if you ever get high enough level.

[ChaosDefender24]

2 of which are pretty much burnt in effigy (Cooperative Spell and Arcane Preperation).

Don't talk smack about Total. Sanctified/Corrupt spells are wonderful!

[Sstoopidtallkid]

On the other hand I don't find that the arguments about not getting ninth level spells are at all persuasive to me. Everyone's experiences are different but I've been playing for 30 years now and I've never had a character who progressed from low levels to having ninth level spells. Games end too quickly and in my experience most stories can be told before the characters acquire enough experience to reach 17th level. Worrying about the high level end game is pointless if you're never going to get there.

9th level spells are just the example. Look at, say, level 7. Wizard 3/Cleric 3/MT 1, with second level Cleric and Wizard spells. Any pure caster has 4th level spells at this point. You're still using Grease when they have Solid Fog and Black Tentacles. They have more spell slots, more variety, and better DCs than you do. MT is a trap.

[Sinfire Titan]

Blasphemy Sinfire. I thought you were more experienced than that...There IS NO 5th level of Seul Arcanamach. Its a dead level that doesn't even advance BAB. Blech. The more optimial format for SA on a melee chassis is Suel4/AbjChamp5/Spellsword1.

There is if you want Share Spells. Remember: RAW for Obtain Familiar keys it's advancement off of your class levels, not effective class levels. So that 5th level is required by RAW.


Pointless, I know. Most DMs ignore that fact about the feat.