MoMF, Living Spells, and You!

[Corbeau]

First of all, I'd like to officially say hello to all of you, as this is my first post on the boards, though I've been cruisin' them for quite some time.

Anyways, on to the matter at hand.

The theory is that through the use of Master of Many Forms (CAd p.58), by level 8 in the PrC you can WildShape into an ooze, i.e. a Living Spell (ECS p.293). Since you get Extraordinary WildShape at PrC lvl 7, you qualify for a living spell's Engulf (Ex) ability, however this is of little consequence or concern if you cannot acquire the Spell Effect (Su).

So whats the big freakin' deal then? Well the allure is that, with the appropriate amount of persuasion of and in some cases leverage over your DM, this would allow you to effectively mimic ANY of one or more spells per wildshape use within the HD limits.

Sounds good doesn't it? Well there's a catch, or three (atleast that I've spotted, probably more, I'm sure you'll all point out some that I missed).

The first is that Living Spell is technically a template applied to a spell(s). Wildshape, IIRC, cannot be used to take the form of a templated creature. Now you might be able to get away with this, in that a Living spell is not a templated creature, but a templated spell that then subsequently becomes an ooze. Too big of a leap? not sure, DM's call as always.

The second irritation is the ever cumbersome familiarity rules. This doesn't have to be as huge of a complication as it could be, at least in its native setting of Eberron. Explanations can be as simple as your character has extensively explored the Mournland and has encountered several of these nasty mofoes, to having to burn a substantial number of skill points in the various Knowledge Skills (namely Arcana, Religion, and Nature; though others could be appropriate). If the latter option is chosen, I'd suggest picking up the Education Feat (ECS).

The third obstacle is the most critical one, because if you can't overcome it then whats the point. I'm sure there may be a myriad of possibilities for adding Supernatural Abilities to your wildshape, but I'll not profess my expertise in this field and defer this problem to the wisdom of the boards and hopefully some of you can come up with some good options. Regardless, I'll at least take a stab at it. The most obvious choice (for me at least) is to pick up Assume Supernatural Ability (SS p.30). This feat works great, but, depending on how its read and your DM's opinion, it could be limited to a specific living spell or if applied in a more general fashion to the living spell template's ability Spell Effect (Su) could absolve the problem altogether. I also recall long ago reading a thread somewhere that explained how Changelings with Racial Emulation and some other character choices would also be able to pick up Su Wildshape.

Well what was supposed to be a quick post turned out to be a book, but hopefully this will spark some interest and we can conquer this build as it has lots of potential, perhaps abusively so.

Thanks,
Corbeau

[Draken]

I take it you want to know how to acquire supernatural abilities while wildshaping. That is fairly easy. The feat you want is Assume Supernatural Ability, found in Savage Species.

The catch is that it only gives you one supernatural ability from one specific shape.

Your other two "problems" for this little piece of roquefort, are entirely a form of DM's call. So... Yeah.

[Lamech]

The highly broken metamorphic transfer could ruin things nicely when it comes to the third obsticle. It takes a level and practiced manifester.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Wild Shape is based off of Alternate Form, i.e. "A creature cannot use alternate form to take the form of a creature with a template."

[PId6]

Wild Shape is based off of Alternate Form, i.e. "A creature cannot use alternate form to take the form of a creature with a template."

He explained that. A living spell is not a template upon a creature; it's technically a template upon a spell that becomes a creature. It's a DM call.

[Salt_Crow]

He explained that. A living spell is not a template upon a creature; it's technically a template upon a spell that becomes a creature. It's a DM call.

It doesn't matter whether it was a creature or a spell before it was living spell, it's still a template and a living spell is a creature. Therefore it'd be a creature with a template. That's how I'd rule myself.


Also: does that mean RAW, you could change into a creature with TWO templates? XD

[Gralamin]

He explained that. A living spell is not a template upon a creature; it's technically a template upon a spell that becomes a creature. It's a DM call.

Its actually not, though its easy to get confused as to why.

A Creature with a template is any creature that has a template applied to it. This comes in two parts
1) It must have a template, and
2) It must end up as a creature.

Templates, are notably, clearly distinct properties that creatures have in 3.5, since its possible to lose a template (God Bloodied comes to mind). So a templated creature by definition has a template (or else it wouldn't be possible to lose it).

Neither of these two preclude Living Spells, and thus you cannot use Wildshape to become a Living Spell.

It doesn't matter whether it was a creature or a spell before it was living spell, it's still a template and a living spell is a creature. Therefore it'd be a creature with a template. That's how I'd rule myself.


Also: does that mean RAW, you could change into a creature with TWO templates? XD

I believe that only works if it said a single template. A creature with a template still has a template, it just has another one in addition.

[Corbeau]

I know that the whole application of a template issue is a bit a of a sticky situation; and as was stated above, you can't under RAW. On the one hand its not really all that geo-explodo in its general application. "Oh look out, he just wildshaped into a fiendish dire wolf" *sarcasm* But it can also lead to a rather slippery slope for those that lack self control. "Oh look out! He just wildshaped into a feral, fiendish, multi-headed,... dire wolf of ultimate devastation!

Clearly I'm in favor of bending the rules a bit to create things thematically interesting. So, if I were DMing and a player brought this up to me, I'd probably allow it so long as they had the understanding that its their responsibility to not nuke the game by WSing into a Shroud of Death and Despair (5N p.92) at the beginning of every encounter. They could instead WS into other more obscure, useful, or flavorful living spell choices.

Otherwise, I'd say you all have some quality insights into this, and makes me wonder if we could find a different way around this template problem?

[lyko555]

hmm I wild shape into mordi's disjunction :D

[HamsterOfTheGod]

They could instead WS into other more obscure, useful, or flavorful living spell choices.

Like?

The problem is not so much bending the rules so much as that the Living Spell template is going to often be either useless or way too good for the PC...as an encounter it's a totally different calculation.

[Corbeau]

"hmm I wild shape into mordi's disjunction :D"

Ok, so obviously you are just trying to provoke a reaction from the crowd since you can't come up with anything useful. If that's the best rebuttal that you've got then I'm really not impressed. Obviously there are abusive uses of this build, but if you can't realize the potential of the build why bother slandering it if you have nothing creative to contribute?

[arguskos]

"hmm I wild shape into mordi's disjunction :D"

Ok, so obviously you are just trying to provoke a reaction from the crowd since you can't come up with anything useful. If that's the best rebuttal that you've got then I'm really not impressed. Obviously there are abusive uses of this build, but if you can't realize the potential of the build why bother slandering it if you have nothing creative to contribute?

Likely, he didn't mean for you to take it that way, since I read it and chuckled a little at the thought of the spectacle it would create. Don't be so eager to deal out judgments on others, especially not on the internet, where tone can not be communicated well, so a joke like that is harder to convey.

As for your idea, I'd tell my player that was amazingly creative (and that I was greatly impressed), but that I won't allow it. Why? Because it would permit him to get some crazy powerful effects out of wildshape at levels he shouldn't be able to, and because it opens the door to template abuse.

Wild shape doesn't need to be more powerful, it's already one of the best class features in the entire damn game. Let's keep what little leash remains on it please.