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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default How Magic In This Case Can Solve V's problem

    How magic in this case can solve V's problem is simple: an atonement spell! It's very clear he regrets his choices done while having a maniac, a monster, and an evil overlord as his 'consciences' so he fits the criteria for the spell working on him.

    It won't break his contract, but it will mean his spirit will no longer have a 50/50 shot of ending up in the underworld.

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Titan in the Playground
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    Default Re: How Magic In This Case Can Solve V's problem

    I don't think the good gods would be willing to let V's sins go THAT easily.

    plus Tiamat might have some say in it.
    Last edited by Mystic Muse; 2009-07-31 at 12:59 AM.

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    Titan in the Playground
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    Default Re: How Magic In This Case Can Solve V's problem

    Actually, I think this would be a clever way to show that there's a time and place for everything. Atonement would make perfect sense here, though I doubt V would know about it, given the dislike shown towards divine magic.

    Good catch.

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    Colossus in the Playground
     
    BlackDragon

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    Default Re: How Magic In This Case Can Solve V's problem

    Now how long is it going to be before someone suggests that someone will cast Atonement on Belkar and change him to Lawful Good?

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    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    DrowGirl

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    Default Re: How Magic In This Case Can Solve V's problem

    Until they come up with an Arcane version of Atonement, I doubt V would be interested.

  6. - Top - End - #6
    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: How Magic In This Case Can Solve V's problem

    Quote Originally Posted by factotum View Post
    Now how long is it going to be before someone suggests that someone will cast Atonement on Belkar and change him to Lawful Good?
    Belkar isn't sorry IN THE LEAST for ANY of the death he's caused and spread be they innocence or otherwise (at least for any reason even remotely related to being the wrong thing to have done), the Atonement spell wouldn't work on him.

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    Default Re: How Magic In This Case Can Solve V's problem

    Quote Originally Posted by Alex Warlorn View Post
    Belkar isn't sorry IN THE LEAST for ANY of the death he's caused and spread be they innocence or otherwise (at least for any reason even remotely related to being the wrong thing to have done), the Atonement spell wouldn't work on him.
    Sanctify The Wicked would though.(Of course that's not core...)
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    David Argall's Avatar

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    Default Re: How Magic In This Case Can Solve V's problem

    I suspect V regrets what she failed to do, not what he did.

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    Dwarf in the Playground
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    Default Re: How Magic In This Case Can Solve V's problem

    Well, except for the fact that she uses the term 'all that I have done' when discussing what she doesn't want to be reminded of, rather than anything that indicates regret exclusively for what she didn't pull off, I might agree with you. But since V said what she did, I'd have to say you're ignoring in comic evidence.

    I always thought Atonement was a weird thing to have as a spell.

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    Default Re: How Magic In This Case Can Solve V's problem

    V can solve all of the Order's Problems right now with a well-placed Locate City Bomb.
    Quote Originally Posted by Porthos View Post
    You are presuming that Ridureyu is trying to be a troll.

    I tend to think of him more as a Performance Artist, myself.

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    NecromancerGuy

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    Default Re: How Magic In This Case Can Solve V's problem

    Quote Originally Posted by Jackson View Post
    I always thought Atonement was a weird thing to have as a spell.
    It's there to "fix" the weird alignment rules.

  12. - Top - End - #12
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    Totally Guy's Avatar

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    Default Re: How Magic In This Case Can Solve V's problem

    When my old cleric adventured with an evil party member he'd prepare atonement every day. Well he was going to...

    I was using cards to represent the spells I had. And I made this massive oversized card for atonement so I'd be able to hold it up for all to see.

    Then the night after I got the spell the DM said to the evil character "you're neutral now" and he said "ok".

    And I'd designed and printed this totally amazing "Atonement" card just for that.

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    Default Re: How Magic In This Case Can Solve V's problem

    That's all well and good, but how will the atonement spell affect the fact that her mate hates her, she committed genocide, and has to hide her deal from her team mates?

    V could care less about the gods and the evilness of her actions, it's the fact that those closest to her hate her and she knows the contract will come up at the worst possible time.

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    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    Planetar

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    Default Re: How Magic In This Case Can Solve V's problem

    Well .. in the mythos I am most familiar with, a contract of this sort can't simply be broken or annulled. It must either be paid in full, or somebody else steps in and pays the price on V's behalf.

    Remember Lion, Witch and the Wardrobe? Edmund put himself in the witch's power, and Aslan had to pay a steep price to rescue him. He couldn't just wave the contract away. Lawful good, after all. He had to pay the price in Edmund's place.

    Anyways, that's how I'd get out of this sort of contract in Narnia.

    What about OOTS verse? The rules are different here. Could a team-mate offer to pay the price in V's place? Could an outsider? Would an outsider do such a thing? Could they force the fiends to take the substitute unwillingly?

    Or another possibility: Can V kill hirself and force the fiends to take back their time at a time and place of hir choosing, rather than their's?

    If the fiends won't take hir soul .. if V's not lawful, could V hide out in the elven gods' afterlife, and good luck to the fiends in getting their payment from the elven gods?

    Other possibilities?

    Any possiblity of solving this problem seems to revolve around fundamental axiom: V has to admit ze's out of hir depth and get help from someone who can do so. That's a very hard thing for V to do.

    Respectfully,

    Brian P.
    Last edited by pendell; 2009-07-31 at 08:36 AM.

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    Default Re: How Magic In This Case Can Solve V's problem

    Quote Originally Posted by pendell View Post
    If the fiends won't take hir soul .. if V's not lawful, could V hide out in the elven gods' afterlife, and good luck to the fiends in getting their payment from the elven gods?
    There is no reference of IFCC being lawful. We do not know their alignment(s). As they represent all evil alignments (LE - Devils, NE - Yugoloths, CE - demons) each of them is most probably one of these alignments (see one of many threads dealing with this topic).

    As for Elven Gods, we have seen none in the Stickverse. Most of them are CG in Forgotten Realms and V is certainly not, therefore I highly doubt in your prediction.

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    Default Re: How Magic In This Case Can Solve V's problem

    Quote Originally Posted by MickJay View Post
    It's there to "fix" the weird alignment rules.
    Not quite. You're actually free to change your character's alignment at any time; Atonement just offers you a believable way of doing so. Similarly, if a deity wanted they could reinstate their relationship with you (and thus your divine powers) even if you can't find a cleric to mediate.

    Atonement is a roleplay spell, like Prestidigitation. It provides an in-universe way of pulling a heel face turn without having to deal with excess skepticism from your new allies.

    In V's case, Atonement saves you from permanent perdition; however, the fact that his soul occupancy contract is temporary may be a double-edged sword; He won't belong to the fiends forever, but at the same time he has no way out of the contract until it is fulfilled.

  17. - Top - End - #17
    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: How Magic In This Case Can Solve V's problem

    I don't think V cares much about that one evil act she did while in the Soul Splice.

  18. - Top - End - #18
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    Default Re: How Magic In This Case Can Solve V's problem

    Quote Originally Posted by Ridureyu View Post
    V can solve all of the Order's Problems right now with a well-placed Locate City Bomb.
    A) OOTS/=D&D
    B) doesn't work in D&D anyway
    C) Way off topic on atonement spell use, no?

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    Colossus in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: How Magic In This Case Can Solve V's problem

    Quote Originally Posted by Optimystik View Post
    Not quite. You're actually free to change your character's alignment at any time; Atonement just offers you a believable way of doing so. Similarly, if a deity wanted they could reinstate their relationship with you (and thus your divine powers) even if you can't find a cleric to mediate.
    True up to a point. However, there is that bit in DMG "My character is Chaotic Good." "Prove it."

    So, in a sense, the player needs to show that the character's outlook has changed. While acts are important, it is possible (though rare) for a character to have a major epiphany. However, the DM does need to see the epiphany.
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    Kish's Avatar

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    Default Re: How Magic In This Case Can Solve V's problem

    Quote Originally Posted by spargel View Post
    I don't think V cares much about that one evil act she did while in the Soul Splice.
    "Please, do not remind me of all that I have done. I don't actually care much about it, I'd just rather not be reminded of it for no particular reason."

    If you're right, then Vaarsuvius is going straight to a lower plane upon death, you do realize.
    Last edited by Kish; 2009-07-31 at 02:51 PM.
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    "The really unforgivable acts are committed by calm men in beautiful green silk rooms, who deal death wholesale, by the shipload, without lust, or anger, or desire, or any redeeming emotion to excuse them but cold fear of some pretended future. But the crimes they hope to prevent in the future are imaginary. The ones they commit in the present--they are real." --Aral Vorkosigan

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    This, in a nutshell.
    Yes, exactly.

  21. - Top - End - #21
    Colossus in the Playground
     
    hamishspence's Avatar

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    Default Re: How Magic In This Case Can Solve V's problem

    There is the possibility (however remote) that V is thinking entirely about the debt that the fiends will call in, and the clumsiness of the tactics used by V against Xykon, when V speaks of wanting to be reminded of acts.

    We'll have to wait and see if V actually has a "guilty conscience" rather than just being embarrassed at own ineptitude, and if so, whether guilt solely concerns fiends, or other things.
    Last edited by hamishspence; 2009-07-31 at 02:53 PM.
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  22. - Top - End - #22
    Pixie in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: How Magic In This Case Can Solve V's problem

    I think that V losing was probably one of the best things s/he has ever done. It made her realize that s/he needed to shut up, smell the coffee, and stop being a power freak.

  23. - Top - End - #23
    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: How Magic In This Case Can Solve V's problem

    Quote Originally Posted by Kish View Post
    "Please, do not remind me of all that I have done. I don't actually care much about it, I'd just rather not be reminded of it for no particular reason."

    If you're right, then Vaarsuvius is going straight to a lower plane upon death, you do realize.
    There are other things V did in that soul splice that he would want to forget about, and his speech to Durkon was about how he failed to use that power to its full potential instead of his morality.

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    Default Re: How Magic In This Case Can Solve V's problem

    Quote Originally Posted by Kyuubi View Post
    I don't think the good gods would be willing to let V's sins go THAT easily.
    Now what makes you say it would be easy... Atonement generally comes along with a quest to prove yourself worthy of such redemption... In V's case, this would likely end up being one hell of a quest that's anything but easy

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    Default Re: How Magic In This Case Can Solve V's problem

    Quote Originally Posted by spargel View Post
    There are other things V did in that soul splice that he would want to forget about, and his speech to Durkon was about how he failed to use that power to its full potential instead of his morality.
    Yes, but "please do not remind me of all that I have done" is inclusive, not exclusive. In other words, to O-Chul he was specifically referring to things he did that he regrets, not things that he failed to do. Otherwise he would have said "I did not do nearly enough" or similar. His statement instead implies that he did too much, and the only context in which that could be true is a moral one.

  26. - Top - End - #26
    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: How Magic In This Case Can Solve V's problem

    Quote Originally Posted by Optimystik View Post
    Yes, but "please do not remind me of all that I have done" is inclusive, not exclusive. In other words, to O-Chul he was specifically referring to things he did that he regrets, not things that he failed to do. Otherwise he would have said "I did not do nearly enough" or similar. His statement instead implies that he did too much, and the only context in which that could be true is a moral one.
    He could also be referring to leaving his own family and selling his soul.

    It really depends on how much V's morals have changed in the recent strips.

  27. - Top - End - #27
    Halfling in the Playground
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    Default Re: How Magic In This Case Can Solve V's problem

    If V would like to atone for what he has done, probably this might work.

    Cast Contingency on himself: 'when my soul or body is about to be overtaken by any external force, cast Phantasmal Killer on myself before it happens.'
    Then, when IFCC tries to do so, voluntarily fail Will and Fortitude saves. Die. Serve the sentence in the hells, but save the Order from whatever plans and actions IFCC was about to accomplish.

    After all, the chances of V's body surviving the fiends' control are close to zero. Either he can get killed by attacking Order or Xykon, or unmade by Snarl, or forced to commit suicide when time is running out - all while accomplishing whatever plans fiends have. So killing himself at the right time may be the best decision preventing worser outcomes.

    After all, Raise Dead is around.

  28. - Top - End - #28
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    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Re: How Magic In This Case Can Solve V's problem

    Quote Originally Posted by David Argall View Post
    I suspect V regrets what she failed to do, not what he did.
    Comic #671

    O'chul: "Thank you once more for all that you have done."
    V: "Please do not remind me of all I have done."

    V's no longer blinded by arrogance; hir regrets all that hir did.

  29. - Top - End - #29
    Titan in the Playground
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    Default Re: How Magic In This Case Can Solve V's problem

    Asking Durkon for an atonement would involve revealing the reason for the need for an atonement. Or at the very least that one is required. She'd need to sneak to another cleric unnoticed, which might lead to confessional humor.
    So you never have to interrupt a game to look up a rule again:
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    Barbarian in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: How Magic In This Case Can Solve V's problem

    After V returned with O-Chul, I was rather hoping he'd confess all, beg for forgiveness, and humbly ask Durkon for an Atonement to seal the deal, but I guess that's a bit too much to expect of him at this point. If matters come to a head later on - if, oh, say,
    Spoiler
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    there is a detour into the Elven Lands and V is confronted by Kyrie,
    the truth may emerge at that time and the Atonement could happen. Quite aside from the saving-his-soul thing, I think V would be put much at ease by the spell, as a way to cap off his character development.

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