[4e] Should I PowerSwap?

[Burley]

After having a debate about the effectiveness, I wonder if it would ever be worth it to take the power swap feats for my upcoming character.
Deva Artificer, with the new Cleric multiclass that gives the Healer's Lore feature. Oh yes... So nice.
I'll be starting at 11th, and the paragon path is Self-Forged (very flavorful character). I'm wondering if there are any levels where it would be best to swap a tasty Cleric encounter power for a less tasty Artificer encounter power.
I don't want to swap out my dailies, because my machine summoning is a big part of the character.

[Ent]

Well Healer's Lore only affects healing with Cleric powers, so you'll want more ways to use it.

[Tequila Sunrise]

Some people say that power swapping can be really effective, but I myself feel it's a waste of feats. (If you're a 9th level multiclassed Str-paladin you might be tempted to power swap because there are no 9th level powers for that build, but I think it's a DM's obligation to fill in power gaps like that so that players don't have to waste feats just to apply their primary stat to their attack powers.)

I think the only good reason to powerswap is fluff. If you want your artificer to have a few more cleric tricks up his sleeve, by all means go for it.

[Burley]

Well Healer's Lore only affects healing with Cleric powers, so you'll want more ways to use it.

Psh... No it...
~checks book~
Crap. Scratch that. I'm back to juggling multiclass feats again.

Any suggestions? It has to be a divine multiclass, but that's the only requirement. (My Wisdom is high enough for all.)

[Yakk]

Cleric -- and grab the cleric feat pacifist healer! ;-)

Invoker never hurts -- the first feat gives you a per-encounter attack.

You aren't melee, so avenger is a bad idea.

Paladin marks are fun to toss out with a ranged attack build. Mark a bad guy and keep pew-pewing it, and make it hard for the bad guy to chase you down.

[Kurald Galain]

Some people say that power swapping can be really effective, but I myself feel it's a waste of feats.

Depends. Sometimes you see a power that sounds really cool to have, except that it's from the wrong class. And note that most MC feats are really good to have, so after that it's only one feat to swap.

I find most of my characters power swap, then after a few levels the novelty wear off and they retrain their feats to something more useful. For instance, my wizard swapped out his L3 power for Call of the Plague, which is a very cool encounter power. Then a few months later, Arcane Power came out so he took Enlarge Spell and Arcane Familiar instead of those swap feats. But still.

Similarly, my fighter replaced the striker-ish L3 power with the very controller-ish Disruptive Strike.

[TheEmerged]

I've theory-built dozens of builds and while nearly every one take a multiclass at some point, I've seen very few cases where the power swap feats are worth it -- and even fewer now that Martial/Arcane/Divine Power are out to give more options for the base class. The problem seems to be that the initial MC feats tend to be overpowered, and the swap feats are underpowered; otherwise I'd argue that the power swapping should just be part of the base feat (you can now take powers from the X list as well as your root class).

[Yakk]

I've theory-built dozens of builds and while nearly every one take a multiclass at some point, I've seen very few cases where the power swap feats are worth it -- and even fewer now that Martial/Arcane/Divine Power are out to give more options for the base class. The problem seems to be that the initial MC feats tend to be overpowered, and the swap feats are underpowered; otherwise I'd argue that the power swapping should just be part of the base feat (you can now take powers from the X list as well as your root class).

I'd rather have per-class Novice, Adept, etc feats that grant an additional toy from your source class, and a power-swap.

Or even a sequence of MC feats from each class. The first one does what it says. The second one does what it says, and lets you power-swap one power (and maybe doesn't give a skill). The third and forth ones yet another power.

[ninja_penguin]

Personally, I've been power swapping a lot of utilities, and not much else. I generally only power swap if the primary abilities/weapons/implements are all the same thing. So I've done some avenger/invoker stuff, some Paladin/feylock things, and Swordmage/artificer, although in that case it was only so that I could take the self-forged PP.

[TheOOB]

With the exception of a pre-divine power strength paladin, I don't think I've ever power swapped anything but a utility power. There is reason to do power swapping, especially for flavor concerns, but now that all the classes have multiple good choices every level it's less important.

[Kallisti]

Psh... No it...
~checks book~
Crap. Scratch that. I'm back to juggling multiclass feats again.

Any suggestions? It has to be a divine multiclass, but that's the only requirement. (My Wisdom is high enough for all.)

Pacifist healer is a pretty good idea, but personally, I rarely power-swap. I don't play a lot of 4th-ed, though...

[Totally Guy]

I don't really know what an Artificer can't do. You power swap to gain something you can't usually get.

As a general rule it's good to have nice class features from a primary class and strong powers from a secondary. It's good to have a primary stat in common and perhaps a common implement for casters.

For a strength paladin some barbarian powers might work well. You've got full armour profiency and now some striker powers.

I had a blast putting together a bard for someone. He'd gone for armour proficiency feats and power swapped into sorcerer. He'd taken only Weapon bard powers and weilded a magic staff top cut down on implement use. The other players couldn't figure out what this guy was. He fought at the front wearing full plate, zapped things with magic and was the best healer in the party. (Of course the armour and power swaps ate all the feats...)

It's as if you can transcend the concept of class and just be a character that does cool things.

[Kaziel]

Power swapping can actually be very useful.

One great example is my group's Ranger is multiclass Rogue. Discounting the abilities available in MP (since I don't have that book with me), there are a grand total of two abilities that target something other than AC (one reflex, one fort), and both of them are ranged. If you decide to play a TWF ranger, you better hope you don't encounter anything with good AC. But... if you multiclass into rogue and pickup the encounter power swap feat, you can swap one of your level 3 encounter powers for "Bait and Switch", which targets Will, something that heavily armored characters usually lack.

Generally speaking, Utility Powers are great things to power swap for if you can find one that stands out to you. For example the "Cure X Wounds" powers from the Cleric are pretty fantastic. They restore HP without people needing to use a healing surge. While it's only once per day, it stands out to me, since I'm rather unimpressed with most of the 2nd level utility powers of the Artificer.

Though I will point out that the value of power swapping for your character will vary greatly depending on how your stats are laid out. For example, as an Artificer, your STR and DEX probably aren't that hot, so classes like Fighters, Rogues, Rangers, and Warlords wouldn't do you too much good, since you'd be lucky to hit the broad side of a barn with them.

OTOH, if you've built your Artificer with a decent WIS and plan to keep upping it, you could see about swapping out a daily or a encouter for something from a Cleric, like Daunting Light (lvl 3 encounter, PHB pg. 65). Imagine being able to give combat advantage to the rogue on one target per encounter on command. They get in position and you go "Bam!" and the next thing they know, they're getting a face full of Sneak Attack! :D

Really, it's a case of YMMV dependingon how your character is built.

[Gralamin]

Power swapping can actually be very useful.

One great example is my group's Ranger is multiclass Rogue. Discounting the abilities available in MP (since I don't have that book with me), there are a grand total of two abilities that target something other than AC (one reflex, one fort), and both of them are ranged. If you decide to play a TWF ranger, you better hope you don't encounter anything with good AC. But... if you multiclass into rogue and pickup the encounter power swap feat, you can swap one of your level 3 encounter powers for "Bait and Switch", which targets Will, something that heavily armored characters usually lack.

Generally speaking, Utility Powers are great things to power swap for if you can find one that stands out to you. For example the "Cure X Wounds" powers from the Cleric are pretty fantastic. They restore HP without people needing to use a healing surge. While it's only once per day, it stands out to me, since I'm rather unimpressed with most of the 2nd level utility powers of the Artificer.

Though I will point out that the value of power swapping for your character will vary greatly depending on how your stats are laid out. For example, as an Artificer, your STR and DEX probably aren't that hot, so classes like Fighters, Rogues, Rangers, and Warlords wouldn't do you too much good, since you'd be lucky to hit the broad side of a barn with them.

OTOH, if you've built your Artificer with a decent WIS and plan to keep upping it, you could see about swapping out a daily or a encouter for something from a Cleric, like Daunting Light (lvl 3 encounter, PHB pg. 65). Imagine being able to give combat advantage to the rogue on one target per encounter on command. They get in position and you go "Bam!" and the next thing they know, they're getting a face full of Sneak Attack! :D

Really, it's a case of YMMV dependingon how your character is built.

On Artificer 2 Utilities:
Restorative Infusion is great at low levels (And is almost defiantly more then a surge for while its still good), and easily traded for Use magic Item at higher levels.

[Artanis]

I keep looking for ways to power-swap on my bow Ranger out of pure spite for the system. It wasn't until DP came out that I found anything that a bow Ranger could even pretend to multiclass into, which is pretty sad.

[Asbestos]

I keep looking for ways to power-swap on my bow Ranger out of pure spite for the system. It wasn't until DP came out that I found anything that a bow Ranger could even pretend to multiclass into, which is pretty sad.

What from DP are you putting into your Bow Ranger?

[Artanis]

I'm not actually going to use it, I meant that for the first time, I had found an option.

The option I'm referring to is the Seldarine Dedicate PP for Clerics, which lets them use a longbow or shortbow as their Cleric implement. Rangers have high enough WIS to make the multiclass work (or at least be able to hit things), so it's an option.

It's kinda depressing that the only thing I've managed to find that gives the bow Ranger a MC option is in Divine Power

[Gralamin]

I'm not actually going to use it, I meant that for the first time, I had found an option.

The option I'm referring to is the Seldarine Dedicate PP for Clerics, which lets them use a longbow or shortbow as their Cleric implement. Rangers have high enough WIS to make the multiclass work (or at least be able to hit things), so it's an option.

It's kinda depressing that the only thing I've managed to find that gives the bow Ranger a MC option is in Divine Power

Certain Ranger builds can Multiclass into Bard and work (Not very well, mind you). In addition, they can get some good additions from Rogue, but mostly their issue is the overall lopsidedness of stats currently (Str and Wis)

[Artanis]

I know that Rangers have multiclassing options. It's bow-users that I can't find anything for. I'll have to look at the Rogue and Bard again though, in case I missed any.

[Kylarra]

I'm not actually going to use it, I meant that for the first time, I had found an option.

The option I'm referring to is the Seldarine Dedicate PP for Clerics, which lets them use a longbow or shortbow as their Cleric implement. Rangers have high enough WIS to make the multiclass work (or at least be able to hit things), so it's an option.

It's kinda depressing that the only thing I've managed to find that gives the bow Ranger a MC option is in Divine Power

Pit fighter is a pretty nasty PP MC for Bow Rangers. Sure your attacking exploits will be useless, but Wis to damage and the rest of the goodies are still very nice.

Upon reading further back, I noticed you're looking for actual things to power swap which this doesn't help, but >__>

[Artanis]

*looks it up*

Yeah, that does look pretty nasty. It'd require putting some otherwise-unused points into STR, but it's an MC option. But yeah, no power-swapping though

[Kylarra]

Looking now, Cloaked Sniper and Master infiltrator (rogue PPs) aren't bad if you're willing to burn a feat on speedloader (you get it back if you take cloaked sniper).

Of course that's not strictly a bow ranger, but you're right, not much to work with.

[Totally Guy]

Bow ranger is Dex to hit. If there's nothing good in rogue then I'm not really sure.