Sudden Leap - Simple Q&A 428

[Curmudgeon]

So here's the recap from the thread:

Q 428

(3.5)
The jump check provided by Sudden Leap still follows the running start rules, right?

A 428

The normal rules for a Jump check apply with Sudden Leap.

As Sudden Leap uses a swift action, and you normally cannot move as part of a swift action, you wouldn't have an opportunity to get a running start. Thus the normal case of the maneuver would involve a standing start, with all Jump DCs doubled (or horizontal distance jumped halved).

The one case where you could make your Jump check without penalty for a standing start would be if you had used normal movement (probably a move action) to make the running start immediately before using Sudden Leap

But there is no DC to beat! Any penalty that increases DC, including jumping straight up, is irrelevant. Your Jump check only determines the maximum distance.

But there is no DC to beat! Any penalty that increases DC, including jumping straight up, is irrelevant. Your Jump check only determines the maximum distance.

That's nonsense. There is a DC for whatever distance you want to Jump, because that's a basic tenet of the skill check rules.

You can make a Jump check as a swift action and move the distance determined by your check result.

When your character uses a skill, you make a skill check to see how well he or she does. The higher the result of the skill check, the better. Based on the circumstances, your result must match or beat a particular number (a DC or the result of an opposed skill check) for the check to be successful.

Sudden Leap refers to the Jump check rules, so we start with the basic skill check rule quoted above which mandates that there is a DC. Then we look into that particular skill's description to find what the DC is, which for a standing start Jump is 2 x the horizontal distance in feet. By inserting the word can in there, the maneuver gives the character the option to try to make a particular Jump DC (i.e., Jump a desired distance). The Jump check determines if they make that distance, or come up short.

You see, it's all covered by the RAW, so your idea of penalties being irrelevant just doesn't hold water.

Specific beats general. And what if I want to Jump as far as possible? What's the DC for that?

You can make a Jump check as a swift action and move the distance determined by your check result.

Why would that part even be added? If it functions exactly like a normal Jump check, wouldn't "you move the distance" be implied?
It's like if they wrote this:

You can make a Craft(basketweaving) check as a swift action and move the distance determined by your check result.

When your character uses a skill, you make a skill check to see how well he or she does. The higher the result of the skill check, the better. Based on the circumstances, your result must match or beat a particular number (a DC or the result of an opposed skill check) for the check to be successful.

There is no such thing as success or failure for Sudden Leap. You roll the die, count your bonuses, and then you move.

[Faleldir]

Thanks for the thread. I don't have much to say now, I just want the truth.
Arguing for its own sake finally stopped being fun.

[Gralamin]

Thanks for the thread. I don't have much to say now, I just want the truth.
Arguing for its own sake finally stopped being fun.

By RAW? Curmudgeon is indeed correct. You need the Leaping Dragon Stance to have a running start, or do as Curmudgeon suggested. You must also pick a distance and roll against the DC specified. The extra part ("distance determined by your check result."), arguably may cause you to over or under jump, but it is not clear whether it is so or not.

By RAI? As I interpret the RAI, It would have a running start and you just roll and go that far, and I think that is what they were trying to do, but horribly failed at.

[Curmudgeon]

Whew! This took a while to go through.

Specific beats general. And what if I want to Jump as far as possible? What's the DC for that?

Specific trumps general if there is a disagreement. There is no disagreement here. The maneuver refers to a Jump check, so you follow the rules for making a Jump check.

And what if I want to Jump as far as possible? What's the DC for that?

You get to pick the DC. There are some consequences for not succeeding well enough, such as falling prone on the landing.

If you have ranks in Jump and you succeed on a Jump check, you land on your feet (when appropriate). If you attempt a Jump check untrained, you land prone unless you beat the DC by 5 or more.

But in many circumstances -- trained jumper with no chasm to cross -- the only consequence for failure is coming up short on the distance.

You can make a Jump check as a swift action and move the distance determined by your check result.

Why would that part even be added? If it functions exactly like a normal Jump check, wouldn't "you move the distance" be implied?

No. "Move the distance" restricts the type of Jump checks you can make -- those with distance. You cannot use Sudden Leap to make a Jump check to reduce the damage from falling, for instance.

There is no such thing as success or failure for Sudden Leap. You roll the die, count your bonuses, and then you move.

That conclusion comes from assuming that the normal skill check rules do not apply. As I've pointed out, that premise is erroneous.

[Faleldir]

So if the distance was, hypothetically, determined by a Craft(basketweaving) check, how would that work?

[Gralamin]

So if the distance was, hypothetically, determined by a Craft(basketweaving) check, how would that work?

We cannot say, since there are no rules for how Craft(Basketweaving) and distance interacts.

[Curmudgeon]

Huh? I haven't the foggiest, because there aren't any rules for computing distance based on Craft (basketweaving). The question is lacking a necessary context to provide an answer.

[Alleine]

Curmudgeon is right.
I don't even know how you'd go about determining distance based on a jump check with no DC's. They could have added a new mechanic for jumping that works specifically with just the maneuvers, but as it stands you have to aim for a DC and hope you don't fail.

[Curmudgeon]

And what if I want to Jump as far as possible? What's the DC for that?

as it stands you have to aim for a DC and hope you don't fail.

I just want to address this one last (let's hope) point. Jumping "as far as possible" is constrained by the D&D movement rules, which is in 5' squares. Each foot of horizontal movement from a standing Jump bumps the DC by 2, which means the DCs will be in multiples of 10 (for movement along a grid axis), or 15 (for diagonal movement.) Since you have freedom to pick your Jump DC for Sudden Leap, you can use these constraints to make an informed choice. Add up your Jump modifiers to see where you'll get with a d20 roll added. There will only be 2 DC numbers that fit inside that range, or maybe just 1 with diagonal movement. Then for the maximum Jump distance your choices are 1 or 2 squares in your "success" range, and the square before that -- unless a rolled 1 happens to exactly hit a square's target DC. You pick the DC that allows just enough movement to get you to a particular square.

Let's say that a rolled 3 will get you to square X, and a rolled 13 will get you to square X+1. You can't roll a 23 so you can't possibly get to square X+2, so the maximum DC you would pick would be for a rolled 13. That would be your DC "to Jump as far as possible". If you roll at least 13, you succeed and get to square X+1. If you roll 3-12 you fail and only get to square X, and if you roll 1-2 you fail and only get to square X-1. Additionally, if you have no ranks in Jump and you roll under 18 you land prone.

[Faleldir]

Okay, I believe you now. I have a different, but related, question about other Tiger Claw maneuvers:
If I need to make a Jump check against a creature's AC, does it matter whether I have a running start or not? There's a DC, but I'm not making a Jump check to move a distance.

[Ernir]

If I need to make a Jump check against a creature's AC, does it matter whether I have a running start or not? There's a DC, but I'm not making a Jump check to move a distance.

Looks to me like the DC is doubled.

Jump:
If you do not get a running start, the DC for the jump is doubled.

The only exception I see is that the lack of a running start does not affect jumps down.

If the only thing special about the jump DC is that it is equal to someone's AC, doubled it is.

[Skorj]

Here's my attempt at a concise summary of the result of the above discussion (which matches my own understanding, if I'm reading this right).

• Whenever you jump (Sudden Leap or no), you make a Jump skill check, with all appropriate modifiers.
• You pick the DC for the maximum distance you wish to jump.
• If you succeed, you jump exactly that distance.
• If you fail, your modified skill check result tells you the actual distance that you did jump (which may be quite important if e.g. a river of lava is involved).
• If you fail, the DC you chose doesn't affect the distance you move, as that DC only affects maximum jump distance.
• Since by RAW if you're skilled, you always "stick the landing", choosing DC 100 is the same as saying "as far as I can" (but if you do that unskilled you'll always fall prone).
• Sudden Leap lets you jump as a swift action. The text "move the distance determined by your check result" applies to all jumps, but Sudden Leap changes the action economy.

I think that's clear ...

[Mavian]

You could always just take Leap of the Heavens and not worry about having to move first.

[Irreverent Fool]

Looks to me like the DC is doubled.



The only exception I see is that the lack of a running start does not affect jumps down.

If the only thing special about the jump DC is that it is equal to someone's AC, doubled it is.

All Jump DCs given here assume that you get a running start, which requires that you move at least 20 feet in a straight line before attempting the jump. If you do not get a running start, the DC for the jump is doubled.

obnoxious
sig

[Drammel]

Looks to me like the DC is doubled.



The only exception I see is that the lack of a running start does not affect jumps down.

If the only thing special about the jump DC is that it is equal to someone's AC, doubled it is.

This one I'm not so sure about. The wording of these maneuvers suggests that it's just your straight check vs. a set DC, ie: not vs. distance which the DC correlates to in a normal jump check. Consider the wording of Claw at the Moon: "The Jump check’s DC is equal to your target’s AC." Equal seems to be the operative word. I could be wrong about this and it seems it needs some discussion to air it out.

[Curmudgeon]

Okay, I believe you now. I have a different, but related, question about other Tiger Claw maneuvers:
If I need to make a Jump check against a creature's AC, does it matter whether I have a running start or not? There's a DC, but I'm not making a Jump check to move a distance.

Unlike Sudden Leap, which just refers to the Jump rules for jumping a distance without providing the necessary DC, Claw at the Moon does provide a DC. And by specifying an independent DC, this avoids the doubliing stipulation in the Jump skill description:

All Jump DCs given here assume that you get a running start, which requires that you move at least 20 feet in a straight line before attempting the jump. If you do not get a running start, the DC for the jump is doubled.

The Jump skill does not mandate doubling all DCs without a running start. It just mandates doubling the specific jumps for distance (long jump and high jump) listed in the skill description.

[daggaz]

Unlike Sudden Leap, which just refers to the Jump rules for jumping a distance without providing the necessary DC, Claw at the Moon does provide a DC. And by specifying an independent DC, this avoids the doubliing stipulation in the Jump skill description: The Jump skill does not mandate doubling all DCs without a running start. It just mandates doubling the specific jumps for distance (long jump and high jump) listed in the skill description.

Bolding mine. In a world of three dimensions, where two of the dimensions are identical as far as the only force vector (gravity) is concerned, then there are really only two different ways you can jump. The long vector, distance, and the up/down vector, height. The latter of which includes a directional force, and indeed, the SRD does include and define the difference in that direction. Against the force with no running, double the DC, with the force, dont worry about running you will make it down no matter what. Even jumping for distance includes a bit of the updown vector, as nobody does an instant latteral slide, and this is included in the maximum height obtained in the long jump, which is 1/4 of the distance.

In other words, if you aren't jumping up/down or outwards, where pray-tell are you jumping, and how in the nine hells are you doing it? Starting to look like planeshift, if you ask me..

EDIT: The only other specific jump in the SRD is a "table hop" definied as jumping half your height vertically up, which does not require running and has a set DC, since its assumed natural strength is enough to overcome this challenge, provided you didnt dump that stat.

[Talic]

Also, note, there is precedent for movement for the purposes of jump carrying over. For example, if you jump a chasm that's wider than your movement, you must use a move action next turn to complete the movement.

This can be interpreted to work in reverse, as well.

Round 1: I cast a spell, then move 30 feet in a straight line.
Round 2: I use Sudden Leap, then...

Now the last action I took was a move that was at least 20 feet in a straight line. By the exact text, I've accomplished "moving 20 feet in a straight line before attempting the jump."

Also note: By RAW, it is possible to move 20 feet due east, and then make a jump, without penalty, due west, or north. RAW does not state that the jump must be in the same direction as the movement, only that the preceding movement be in a straight line.