Zombies vs. Skeletons

[Admiral Squish]

Now, you can make two different kinds of undead with your standard animate dead. Zombies... or skeletons. I'm looking over the effects, and I'm honestly curious: Why would anyone pick zombie? They're a little stronger, and a LITTLE harder to hit, but the single action only thing just makes them completely useless. Anything with sense can full attack and 5 ft. step out of it's reach and be safe forever. It can't AoO, it can't 5 ft. step, it can't even full attack! A skeleton, however, gets similar, albeit slightly weaker bonuses, and can actually move and attack, or even full attack. I can understand making a zombie so it can fly, but generally, there seems little to no point to making anything without wings a zombie. Except MAYBE something massive, and use it as a meat-wall. Zombie seismosaurus and such.

But anyways, can anyone tell me why you'd make a zombie rather than a skeleton?

[Weezer]

If all you have is fresh corpses? If your animating dead on a battlefield all the corpses will be far too fleshy to be skeletons but aside from situations like that I cant think of any reason.

[Claudius Maximus]

That's not a concern. You can raise a fleshy corpse as a skeleton.

[Gralamin]

Now, you can make two different kinds of undead with your standard animate dead. Zombies... or skeletons. I'm looking over the effects, and I'm honestly curious: Why would anyone pick zombie? They're a little stronger, and a LITTLE harder to hit, but the single action only thing just makes them completely useless. Anything with sense can full attack and 5 ft. step out of it's reach and be safe forever. It can't AoO, it can't 5 ft. step, it can't even full attack! A skeleton, however, gets similar, albeit slightly weaker bonuses, and can actually move and attack, or even full attack. I can understand making a zombie so it can fly, but generally, there seems little to no point to making anything without wings a zombie. Except MAYBE something massive, and use it as a meat-wall. Zombie seismosaurus and such.

But anyways, can anyone tell me why you'd make a zombie rather than a skeleton?

Zombies can fly, also they don't need skeletal structures. So certain creatures work much better as zombies.

[HamsterOfTheGod]

But anyways, can anyone tell me why you'd make a zombie rather than a skeleton?

Have you ever tried making love to skeleton?

[Admiral Squish]

Have you ever tried making love to skeleton?

You're not allowed to talk anymore. Ever.

[Jayngfet]

Have you ever tried making love to skeleton?

Once, it didn't turn out well.

[Jade_Tarem]

Have you ever tried making love to skeleton?

*HURK* *cough* *cough*

Eheh... anyway, the zombie option is there because not all zombies are created equal. There are necro builds that allow you to make fast zombies, soldier zombies, etc., that are quite good.

[RS14]

Anything with sense can full attack and 5 ft. step out of it's reach and be safe forever. It can't AoO, it can't 5 ft. step, it can't even full attack!

I think you are mistaken here. It can charge (moving up to its base speed only) and attack in the same turn.

I don't see where you're getting the idea that it can't make AoOs or take 5ft steps, either.

[Salt_Crow]

Single action only restriction can be somewhat bypassed by creating Hydra zombies. Also, due to the doubling of HD you can make some good meatshields (quite literally) with zombies. Think about what you can do with a 12-head hydra with twice the HD that can make 12 normal attacks AND AoO (huge size doesn't hurt either).

Also, Hamsterofthegod, that's disturbing to the extreme. Hilarious yes, inappropriate nevertheless.

[Faleldir]

In addition to their advantages in combat, skeletons are much cleaner and quieter than zombies, and fold up for easy storage.

[Weezer]

That's not a concern. You can raise a fleshy corpse as a skeleton.

Hmm didn't realize that, guess I've been playing wrong all these years, oh well.

[Admiral Squish]

I think you are mistaken here. It can charge (moving up to its base speed only) and attack in the same turn.

I don't see where you're getting the idea that it can't make AoOs or take 5ft steps, either.

I though single action only meant move OR attack only, no exceptions. No free actions or anything like that, and especially no charges. Lack of AoOs just makes sense to me. If it can only swing once every six seconds, then how is he supposed to be making attacks in those brief instants of opportunity?

[deuxhero]

Zombies are great when they are pyrohyrda zombies. Ice and fire imune, can make full attacks even as a zombie. I think it can be Evolve Undeaded for more fun.

[Kelpstrand]

Best Zombie ever: Behir.

Single bite attack, which it keeps Improved Grab, keeps. Can fly, keeps. Charge attacks with it's bite, then it gets to use it's Rake (Ex): Ability, which it keeps.

6 claw attacks.

Hello 7 attacks on a charge, and twice the HD. Skeletons are jealous.

I though single action only meant move OR attack only, no exceptions. No free actions or anything like that, and especially no charges. Lack of AoOs just makes sense to me. If it can only swing once every six seconds, then how is he supposed to be making attacks in those brief instants of opportunity?

They can swing more than once, they just don't get a full attack action, even a standard action attack is more than one attack, it's the give and take leading up to the one attack that could hit. So they still get AoOs, because that's people not defending as well against previous attacks.

Also, standard action only means they can partial charge, and they can still 5ft step, because that's a non action.

[tyckspoon]

I though single action only meant move OR attack only, no exceptions. No free actions or anything like that, and especially no charges. Lack of AoOs just makes sense to me. If it can only swing once every six seconds, then how is he supposed to be making attacks in those brief instants of opportunity?

It may 'make sense' to you, but it's not what the rules say. The rules even specifically allow a charge- it's the partial charge, which means it doesn't get double movement, but it's still a charge (Pouncing zombies are almost as dangerous as they were alive.) 5 foot steps are permitted any time a creature does not otherwise move, such as when the Zombie intends to use its standard action to attack, so it can shuffle after the person who gets overly smart and tries to dance away with their own 5-foots.

As for Attacks of Opportunity.. characters under level 6 can also only 'swing' once per round in most circumstances. Do you deny them AoO because they aren't skilled/fast/attentive enough to take advantage?

[Admiral Squish]

It may 'make sense' to you, but it's not what the rules say. The rules even specifically allow a charge- it's the partial charge, which means it doesn't get double movement, but it's still a charge (Pouncing zombies are almost as dangerous as they were alive.) 5 foot steps are permitted any time a creature does not otherwise move, such as when the Zombie intends to use its standard action to attack, so it can shuffle after the person who gets overly smart and tries to dance away with their own 5-foots.

As for Attacks of Opportunity.. characters under level 6 can also only 'swing' once per round in most circumstances. Do you deny them AoO because they aren't skilled/fast/attentive enough to take advantage?

That's a different kind of slow. Zombies are supposed to be lumbering, rotting monsters with little capacity for thought beyond action. They've got abysmal reflexes. I wouldn't think a zombie would be able to move it's limbs fast enough to strike at a character rushing past it, or take advantage of the momentary gap in defenses caused by reloading a light crossbow, or even recognize the opportunity was there.

[Kelpstrand]

That's a different kind of slow. Zombies are supposed to be lumbering, rotting monsters with little capacity for thought beyond action. They've got abysmal reflexes. I wouldn't think a zombie would be able to move it's limbs fast enough to strike at a character rushing past it, or take advantage of the momentary gap in defenses caused by reloading a light crossbow, or even recognize the opportunity was there.

Well Golems are a lot less dangerous now that they don't get AoO because you decided they aren't smart enough to recognize the opportunity.

You'd think the people who made the game, and made the entry on "Mindless creatures" would have mentioned that they don't get AoO.

Does the Slow spell take away attacks of Opportunity? Because it's pretty much exactly like Zombie slow.

You don't get to decide what you think the ability should have done as meaningful in any way. What it does do is only allow Zombies to take a move or standard action. It does not affect their non actions.

[Admiral Squish]

Okay, to clarify, I'm not saying, 'this is what I think and thus it is law'. I'm just saying, that's what I always assumed, and this is why I assumed such. I was unaware of their ability to AoO, or 5-foot step. Now that I know, I think several battles my players have faced would be significantly different...

[erikun]

Well, I think we know why people would use zombies rather than skeletons - because they're far more versatile than you gave them credit for. I'm more of a fan of skeletons (less cleanup) but zombies have their uses.

Except for Hamster Of The God. He can't use undead anymore. Or constructs. Or any spells with the word "Animate" in them.

[Seffbasilisk]

Skeletons don't generally smell, and tend to strike more fear (in my opinion) than a dead man's corpse. You can kill a man, you can cut it's head off or whatnot. A skeleton? A pile of bones animated through necromantic energies? If you don't pound every little bit of it to powder, it will claw you to shreds.

[Kallisti]

*HURK* *cough* *cough*

Eheh... anyway, the zombie option is there because not all zombies are created equal. There are necro builds that allow you to make fast zombies, soldier zombies, etc., that are quite good.

Yes. That's the reason. That, and zombies have more HP. If you just want someone to stand in front of you and soak up damage, you're better off with a zombie.

Personally, I prefer zombies, because when I play a necromancer my undead minions aren't supposed to be pwerful, they're supposed to be plentiful and explode on impact thanks to that one feat from Libris Mortis. Animate a few skeletons from high HD monsters, those are your elite minions, and hordes of expendable zombies...

[ChaosDefender24]

What you hafta keep in mind is that zombies get double HD. This makes for a mighty meat shield, but gives you rather poor HD-to-power ratio, which is important because you have limited HD to animate. In addition, since you have a 20-HD cap on both, your skeletons will ultimately be more powerful than your zombies, because the best zombie you're ever gonna get is a 10-headed hydra. The outsider skeletons get really scary!!!

Zombies are just not that great for PCs, but make for fun NPC fights. The exception is dragon zombie because you keep the breath weapon (pyroclastic disintegrate breath is just ridiculous), but that's a whole nother template.

[AstralFire]

Have you ever tried making love to skeleton?

You owe me a new trachea and a handful of Doritos.

Once, it didn't turn out well.

Both of you.

[Ravens_cry]

Have you ever tried making love to skeleton?

Puts a whole new perspective on jumping someone bones that I don't want to think about, thank you very much.

[Teron]

If it's expendable minions you want, zombies are bad; double HD means you can control half as many, and they're certainly not twice as powerful. If anything, zombies are better when you want a big, stupid tough minion, and with the right choice of corpse it can be reasonably dangerous.

Kelpstrand, zombies lose the base creatures' special attacks, including improved grab and rake. They do keep extraordinary special qualities that improve melee or ranged attacks, though I can't think of any such abilities off the top of my head. Furthermore, behirs can't fly.

The rules for hydras are poorly written, but the common interpretation pretty much makes them the best zombies, at least in core.

[MisterSaturnine]

You're not allowed to talk anymore. Ever.

Well, I liked it.

Also, what's the matter with making love to skeletons? Nothing like waking up with your head not just on your lover's chest, but in it.

EDIT: Though they do have trouble with the whole cigarette thing afterwards. What with the smoke not having anywhere to go.

[Surrealistik]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IyDMCn60lhY

[BobVosh]

Well, I liked it.

Also, what's the matter with making love to skeletons? Nothing like waking up with your head not just on your lover's chest, but in it.

EDIT: Though they do have trouble with the whole cigarette thing afterwards. What with the smoke not having anywhere to go.

They do, however, always have a joint.


Don't hurt me

Also one game I played in exalted had someone with an undead fetish...ya, that was werid when we got to the necropolis. K, moving on.

[HamsterOfTheGod]

They do, however, always have a joint.

*Applauds*