[4e] Would you say...

[Gralamin]

Would you say a creature generated using the PC rules (Except giving them 1 HS/tier, and Solo HP) would be roughly equivalent to a Solo of its level? Or closer to 7.5 monsters (Something I have, Strangely enough, found a use for)?

[Myshlaevsky]

Would you say a creature generated using the PC rules (Except giving them 1 HS/tier, and Solo HP) would be roughly equivalent to a Solo of its level? Or closer to 7.5 monsters (Something I have, Strangely enough, found a use for)?

I generally find it's weaker than a Solo of its level. It's more equivalent to an elite, except it's generally worse because it lacks the degree of focus an elite can be customised to have.

Modding the HP will help but I'd still recommend using a high damage class and taking some measure to boost action economy. Increasing the defenses would be a good step, too. If you used a class like ranger, focusing on high damage powers and giving free action mobility powers I could see it working. In my opinion however, you'd be almost guaranteed a better encounter if you just built a Solo from the ground up.

[Mauril Everleaf]

The problem with using the PC rules to create an enemy is that "encounter" powers are really just weak dailies, or (conversely) "dailies" are over-powered encounter powers.

If you are going to use the PC rules, only give the enemy one daily power. Give them 1+Con Mod HSs, or something similar, and level appropriate Solo HP. Also, make sure they have at least one or two APs at their disposal, and let them use them all in an encounter. They are at a severe action disadvantage, especially against a full party.

[Starsinger]

Or closer to 7.5 monsters (Something I have, Strangely enough, found a use for)?

If that use is what I think it is...

[Gralamin]

The problem with using the PC rules to create an enemy is that "encounter" powers are really just weak dailies, or (conversely) "dailies" are over-powered encounter powers.

If you are going to use the PC rules, only give the enemy one daily power. Give them 1+Con Mod HSs, or something similar, and level appropriate Solo HP. Also, make sure they have at least one or two APs at their disposal, and let them use them all in an encounter. They are at a severe action disadvantage, especially against a full party.

Monsters don't usually have dailies, and I'm anticipating the monster going nova.

Other part ties into below question.

I generally find it's weaker than a Solo of its level. It's more equivalent to an elite, except it's generally worse because it lacks the degree of focus an elite can be customised to have.

Modding the HP will help but I'd still recommend using a high damage class and taking some measure to boost action economy. Increasing the defenses would be a good step, too. If you used a class like ranger, focusing on high damage powers and giving free action mobility powers I could see it working. In my opinion however, you'd be almost guaranteed a better encounter if you just built a Solo from the ground up.

I also intended to give it an extra Action point, but thats a good point. If I gave it two to three turns in the initiative, would that be enough to push it into the area? Keep in mind, they can nova dailies.

Also, they would have Save bonuses of a solo.

Basically
They would get the following different from the PCs:

• Multiple Turns
• Multiple AP
• Solo HP
• 1 HS/tier

They would make death saving throws as well, so theres a chance they could jump back up. I wouldn't run say a leader class with this, but a Striker, Controller, or Defender are defiantly fair game.

If that use is what I think it is...

>.> <.< I refuse to answer.

[AgentPaper]

I'd say go by the NPC rules for powers: 1 at-will, 1 encounter power (2 at 11+), 1 daily power (2 at 21+), and 1 utility power per tier, and an action point. For a solo, increased HP, more action points, 2 turns, and another at-will.

[Gralamin]

I'd say go by the NPC rules for powers: 1 at-will, 1 encounter power (2 at 11+), 1 daily power (2 at 21+), and 1 utility power per tier, and an action point. For a solo, increased HP, more action points, 2 turns, and another at-will.

I Know how to make an NPC into a solo, thats already covered. I'm trying to find alternative ways of making solos (Or slightly stronger then solo) creatures.

[Meek]

The biggest part of a Solos challenge is staying power. They have high saving throws and high hit points. If it's got 3-4 daily powers and will Nova, and it has Solo HP, I would say it is thus a bit stronger than a Solo. If it has a single daily power or two, I wouldn't say it's stronger than a Solo. Dragons are solos and they are about the level of power, damage-wise, of a PC with one or two dailies kicking around (in the form of those big rechargeable breath attacks).

[Yakk]

I would say this is a bad idea, becaues the combat balance would be brittle.

Players who see the target as a threat could get lucky, win initiative, and kill it before it acts. Because even a defender only has (level*6.5)+~25 HP.

On the other hand, with 2 action points and dailies, this opponent could burn 3 dailies in a round and kill more than one player if it wins initiative. Suppose a level 10 character with +6 in primary stat, +3 weapon, +3 from "other" sources on per-hit damage, using powers that can hit ~5 times on a target, for a total of 3[W] per daily:
3[W]*3+5*Stat+5*Implement+5*Other (say), with a d12 weapon, is 118.5 damage.

A level 10 fighter caps ends up in the 80s-90s HP range. A level 10 controller in the 60s.

I assumed all hits -- but dailies tend to be stronger than what I described (there are encounter powers that are more powerful than what I described). If it was a striker, toss in another ~20 damage on top of that (as opposed to damage-oriented non-striker).

But meanwhile, the characters could alpha-strike the opponent back. 5 players all using a daily is stronger than the above 3 dailies -- and the above kills the target in a round.

Basically, a single even-level PC built opponent isn't a trivial threat -- but it isn't a suitable threat either. It doesn't have enough HP, it does too much damage, and any balance that falls out will be brittle.

[Gralamin]

I would say this is a bad idea, becaues the combat balance would be brittle.

Players who see the target as a threat could get lucky, win initiative, and kill it before it acts. Because even a defender only has (level*6.5)+~25 HP.

On the other hand, with 2 action points and dailies, this opponent could burn 3 dailies in a round and kill more than one player if it wins initiative. Suppose a level 10 character with +6 in primary stat, +3 weapon, +3 from "other" sources on per-hit damage, using powers that can hit ~5 times on a target, for a total of 3[W] per daily:
3[W]*3+5*Stat+5*Implement+5*Other (say), with a d12 weapon, is 118.5 damage.

A level 10 fighter caps ends up in the 80s-90s HP range. A level 10 controller in the 60s.

I assumed all hits -- but dailies tend to be stronger than what I described (there are encounter powers that are more powerful than what I described). If it was a striker, toss in another ~20 damage on top of that (as opposed to damage-oriented non-striker).

But meanwhile, the characters could alpha-strike the opponent back. 5 players all using a daily is stronger than the above 3 dailies -- and the above kills the target in a round.

Basically, a single even-level PC built opponent isn't a trivial threat -- but it isn't a suitable threat either. It doesn't have enough HP, it does too much damage, and any balance that falls out will be brittle.

Noted. I thought you'd be able to tell, thanks.