[3.5] Spells useful well past their own level

[DragoonWraith]

I accidentally posted this in the Homebrew forum, so I'm moving it here. Here's the entire so far:

So I'm playing my own Cerebremancer, with Sorc 1/Psion 3 entry. I'm currently level seven, meaning I have the casting of a 3rd level Sorcerer (CL 5) and a 6th level Psion (Telepath, ML 7). So I need spells that A. aren't replaced by my Psionics, and B. are useful despite getting them much later than I would otherwise. I still lose another two levels of Sorcerer casting (at 9 and 12), so I can be up to six levels behind (possibly more depending on what I do after Cerebremancer), so they definitely need to be things that last.

Any suggestions? I currently have Summon Monster I, Ray of Enfeeblement, and Detect Secret Doors, as well as Protection from Evil from the Celestial Sorcerer Heritage feat. Any sources are fine, though SRD is preferred.

Cheat and ectoplasmic armour perhaps? Also you could take summon undead 1 as opposed to summon monster 1 if you wanted

Since this is the homebrew forum:

Cheap And Broken Wish
Sorceror/Wizard 1, Cleric 1, Paladin 1, Ranger 1, Druid 1, Bard 0
Universal
Range: Varies
Effect: Varies
Target: Varies
Save: Varies
Spell Resistance: Yes
This spell functions exactly like Wish, except you don't have to pay any XP for its effects.

Grease: No save DC, just a flat balance check. Most things aren't trained in balance.
Obscuring Mist: Great for remaining unseen, and isn't easily disposed of without dispel magic. Note that even true seeing doesn't bypass it, as the mist is really there.
Scorching Ray: A very powerful 2nd level spell that retains its use pretty well.
Glitterdust: Invisibility? No problem.
Wind Wall: 20th level archer? Eh. Immaterial. Poison gas? Not your problem.
Major Image/Silent Image/Images in general: Illusions are limited only by your own creativity. Will negates (interaction) can mean that your enemy realizes the floor is fact only once he's interacted with it...meaning he's either scouting across the corridor staring intently at the floor, or currently falling 60 feet into a pit of lava cunningly covered by silent image.
Blink: You may not hit me. Your spells may not hit me. I can walk through walls. There's nothing you can do about it.

There are more, of course, but this is from Core, spell levels 1-3. Even then there are more, but someone else is probably better versed in this stuff.

Since this is the homebrew forum

...oops.

Any good way to have the thread to be moved?

Anyway, thanks Djinn. Jair, I'm not quite sure what you mean. I'm pretty comfortable with the spells I currently have, but I'm wondering what would be particularly good choices going forward.

There's a feat in complete arcane (or was it mage?) that gives you +4 caster levels that cannot exceed your HD. In other words, multiclass spell casters are no longer ganked because they stopped focusing in their spell casting area.

Practiced spellcaster- a staple for gish or otherwise multiclassed characters. CArc, I believe. There's also a practiced manifester in CPsi, that does the same for manifesting level- much more useful in the latter case, as manifester level is supremely important.

sorc heritage feats seem kinda useless to me. You have to waste your spell slots to have a weaker-that-a-spell spell-like effect.

I'll try to say ones that haven't been said before. Darkness, strike that, anything that gives concealment. 50% chance of being hit is always very nice. Enlarge person is great, your frontliners get reach and cover up four squares, and get a strength bonus. If you can, Overwhelm (PHB2) is oh so nice on those brutish ones with no will saves.

Am aware of Practiced Spellcaster/Manifester (they're specifically accounted for in my Cerebremancer, which gives a similar effect but +2 to each, specifically stacking with both feats). The campaign is actually set in a world with no magic, just psionics, so my Sorcerer is a complete anomaly, and cannot get any magic training - hence, she's way behind where a normal Sorcerer would be. Part of this has been a conscious decision not to take Practiced Spellcaster. We'll see how that goes. I may take it at level 9 (oh, and we're using Pathfinder-esque feat rules, so every odd level instead of every third).

Anyway, thanks to everyone for suggestions. Any thoughts on getting the thread moved? I had thought I was posting in Roleplaying, but I was posting as I was heading out the door, soooo....

sorc heritage feats seem kinda useless to me. You have to waste your spell slots to have a weaker-that-a-spell spell-like effect.

Celestial Sorcerer Heritage gives a free spell known. Worth a feat to me. Also, Celestial Sorcerer Lore gives three free spells known, which is nice - not sure it's worth the fact I need to take two more Celestial Sorcerer feats (Lance, at least, looks half-decent... why the Wings have such ridiculously short duration, I cannot understand. The Aura would have been decent at level 1, I suppose, maybe...)

Also, while I did say SRD was preferred, since anything else would have to be DM-approved, I'm also much more familiar with the SRD spells than I am with other spells, so suggestions from outside SRD might actually be more useful to me.

Also, I'm not looking for cheesy brokenness or anything - I just want spells that are still going to be useful despite my level when I get them.

Finally, for those not interested in reading up on my entire Cerebremancer, the noteworthy things are that you can get in on 3/1 in spellcasting and/or manifesting (one 2nd level power/spell, plus 1st level spell/power), you lose 3 levels of the lower-level class during the class, and the capstone allows you to gain to have dual-progression any time your "dominant" side gets progressed by a PrC (in my case, every time I gain a bonus as if progressing in Psion, I gain the equivalent bonus to Sorcerer, after Cerebremancer 10).

[Eldariel]

The good news is, almost the best control spells last after their level and are relatively Caster Level-independent. A quick list of the low-level ones:

-Grease: Reflex-saves are things monsters fail even on high levels, and even if they don't, it's still a balance-check to move. Also bonuses to escaping grapple, greasing warrior's weapon to make 'em drop it, etc. Incredible
-Glitterdust: Area-effect Will-save Or Be Blind. Also reveals invisibles. Very, very handy as Will-saves tend to be relatively low on many points even later on.
-Web: Even if they save they're screwed!
-Ray of Enfeeblement: Blasting some Str away is very, very handy and it has NO SAVE. People collapse under their equipment, attack and damage take a plunging nosedive, etc.
-True Strike: Yeah, hitting with your rays & al. is nice.
-Protection from X (this you have): Handy bonuses, immunity to mind control (note that that part of the spell works regardless of alignment!)
-Alter Self: All movement modes, Natural Armor and such in one spell. 10 min/level. Only prob is, it's a bit TOO good.
-Magic Missile: It only comes onto its own on higher levels, but unstoppable Force damage is incredibly useful on many occasions.
-Scorching Ray: Best damage-spell per level.
-Mirror Image: Still the best defense aside from Greater Mirror Image (level 4) forever.
-Color Spray: Always at least 1 round on a failed save. Of course, it does nothing on a successful save which sucks, but it's a level 1 Will-save targetting spell.
-Nerveskitter [SC]: Level 1 spell that boosts your initiative! Incredible!
-Wings of Cover [RoTD]: Second-level SORC-ONLY spell that protects you from one ANYTHING. Superb.
-Lesser Celerity [PHBII]: Not broken unlike its higher level cousins, but being able to move out of harm's way as an immediate action ROCKS.
-Benign Transposition [SC]: Level 1 "switch places with an ally". Superb!
-Baleful Transposition [SC]: Level 2, can be used on an opponent (with a Will-save)!


That's it off the top of my head - very handy low-level spells that last all game are plenty.

[sofawall]

Whoever said spellcaster's aren't ganked because they get 4 caster levels is sorely mistaken. Sure, they'll be better than a random fighter or paladin, but not anywhere close to a full CL caster.

Also, anything that doesn't allow a save is gold. Fogs are amazing in general, as well.

[DragoonWraith]

The good news is, almost the best control spells last after their level and are relatively Caster Level-independent. A quick list of the low-level ones:

Awesome, thanks Eldariel.

-Grease: Reflex-saves are things monsters fail even on high levels, and even if they don't, it's still a balance-check to move. Also bonuses to escaping grapple, greasing warrior's weapon to make 'em drop it, etc. Incredible

Aye, but is there any reason not to just use Psionic Grease? I'm going to end up with a lot more Power Points and Powers Known than I am Spells per Day or Known.

-Glitterdust: Area-effect Will-save Or Be Blind. Also reveals invisibles. Very, very handy as Will-saves tend to be relatively low on many points even later on.

Definitely plan on it.

-Web: Even if they save they're screwed!

Heh, wasn't there something where it had to be cast with walls near each other or something?

-Ray of Enfeeblement: Blasting some Str away is very, very handy and it has NO SAVE. People collapse under their equipment, attack and damage take a plunging nosedive, etc.

Already have it.

-True Strike: Yeah, hitting with your rays & al. is nice.

Gonna need it, too, with 8 Dex....

-Protection from X (this you have): Handy bonuses, immunity to mind control (note that that part of the spell works regardless of alignment!)

Yup.

-Alter Self: All movement modes, Natural Armor and such in one spell. 10 min/level. Only prob is, it's a bit TOO good.

Heh, I hesitate about taking that...

-Magic Missile: It only comes onto its own on higher levels, but unstoppable Force damage is incredibly useful on many occasions.

Mm, I should be able to have enough CL to max it, too, eventually.

-Scorching Ray: Best damage-spell per level.

I think Psionics will cover my damage needs, though.

-Mirror Image: Still the best defense aside from Greater Mirror Image (level 4) forever.

Yeah, definitely taking that.

-Color Spray: Always at least 1 round on a failed save. Of course, it does nothing on a successful save which sucks, but it's a level 1 Will-save targetting spell.

Eh, at level 7, I don't feel like that helps much.

-Nerveskitter [SC]: Level 1 spell that boosts your initiative! Incredible!

Ah, forgot to mention - PbP game where we don't actually have initiative.

-Wings of Cover [RoTD]: Second-level SORC-ONLY spell that protects you from one ANYTHING. Superb.

Oooh, something Sorcerers can do that Wizards can't?! Awesome.

-Lesser Celerity [PHBII]: Not broken unlike its higher level cousins, but being able to move out of harm's way as an immediate action ROCKS.

Aye, good choice.

-Benign Transposition [SC]: Level 1 "switch places with an ally". Superb!

Definitely taking this. Should synergize well with Summon Monster, thanks to having expendable meatshields around.

-Baleful Transposition [SC]: Level 2, can be used on an opponent (with a Will-save)!

Even better!

That's it off the top of my head - very handy low-level spells that last all game are plenty.

Sweet, thanks a lot!

[PId6]

Don't forget these:

Silent Image/Minor Image - I absolutely love illusion spells. They're just so open-ended and useful. It doesn't even matter that much if your save DC isn't high, because enemies don't get a save unless they interact with it, meaning they waste their actions. And if you're up against a mindless enemy, they're auto-screwed.
Obscuring Mist - Blocking vision, no save. Pop it on a group of archers stops them pretty quickly. Ready an action to use it when your opponent starts casting can waste their entire turn.
Enlarge/Reduce Person - You can't get this with psionics (besides psychic warrior) so these are great buffs to have. Reduce the rogue for free, stacks-with-everything hide bonus, Enlarge the fighter for awesome reach. These spells are just generally great.
Magic Aura - Not sure if you can get this with psionics but it can be useful sometimes.
Mount - Horse trading scams, enough said. And also a nice meatshield when you're feeling particularly cruel.
Detect Thoughts - Good for some RP purposes, though the low DC might be annoying.
See Invisibility - Always nice to have.
Gust of Wind - Useful if you've nothing else to fill the slot, though scrolls of this might be better. It's for the rare occasions when enemies use cloud spells on you.
Blur - Great defensive buff.
Invisibility - Again, good for obvious reasons.
Knock - Put the rogue out of a job.
Rope Trick - Sleep soundly in any environment.

[Keld Denar]

Don't forget about Ray of Clumsiness. Its Ray of Enfeeblements less dexterous cousin. For some reason they put it in Transmutation instead of Necromancy like RoE, but its still VERY good. Empower it, and RoE for big mean debuffs.

Also, if you really like Ray of Enfeeblement, check out Complete Mage's Escalating Enfeeblement. Its 2nd level, and is exactly like Ray of Enfeeblement EXCEPT when used against a target that is already Fatigued/Exhausted/Enfeebled. Then its 1d10+(1/2) CL max 5. Hit your foe with Ray of Exhaustion followed by Escalating Enfeeblement to stack on 1d10 +11 points of Str penalty. Empower Escalating Enfeeblement (with a Lesser Rod) for even more penalty! Your 8 str wizard could probably beat a hill giant in an arm wrestling match at that point!

[Starbuck_II]

Heh, wasn't there something where it had to be cast with walls near each other or something?

Yes, Webs one flaw.

Summon Monster spells if you summon Fiendish (too bad no spiders are celestial) Spiders. They can use Web (net like attack) 7/day (which means 7 times), up to one sixe larger.
Touch attack, they hit entangled (possibly stuck to floor since webs are sticky but DMs adjuration required). Still pretty nice.

[Siosilvar]

Don't forget about Ray of Clumsiness. Its Ray of Enfeeblements less dexterous cousin. For some reason they put it in Transmutation instead of Necromancy like RoE, but its still VERY good. Empower it, and RoE for big mean debuffs.

Literally.

[DragoonWraith]

Don't forget about Ray of Clumsiness. Its Ray of Enfeeblements less dexterous cousin. For some reason they put it in Transmutation instead of Necromancy like RoE, but its still VERY good. Empower it, and RoE for big mean debuffs.

Also, if you really like Ray of Enfeeblement, check out Complete Mage's Escalating Enfeeblement. Its 2nd level, and is exactly like Ray of Enfeeblement EXCEPT when used against a target that is already Fatigued/Exhausted/Enfeebled. Then its 1d10+(1/2) CL max 5. Hit your foe with Ray of Exhaustion followed by Escalating Enfeeblement to stack on 1d10 +11 points of Str penalty. Empower Escalating Enfeeblement (with a Lesser Rod) for even more penalty! Your 8 str wizard could probably beat a hill giant in an arm wrestling match at that point!

Hehe, this is very entertaining. I may very well do this.

Yes, Webs one flaw.

Summon Monster spells if you summon Fiendish (too bad no spiders are celestial) Spiders. They can use Web (net like attack) 7/day (which means 7 times), up to one sixe larger.
Touch attack, they hit entangled (possibly stuck to floor since webs are sticky but DMs adjuration required). Still pretty nice.

Yeah, will see. But heh, I'm not worried about the Fiendish/Celestial bit - I speak Celestial, Abyssal, and Infernal (and Common), and in this campaign world, there are no gods or demons (hence no Divine magic). Pretty sure there's no other planes, at least for all the world knows. I shouldn't be able to do what I do. But summoning of "celestial" creatures freaks people out as much as "fiendish" ones, so I'm not worried about alignment issues for that. Plus the DM has already stated that all alignment restrictions are ignored (Paladins don't fall, Lawful Bards and Chaotic Monks are A-OK, etc). So that should be totally fine, even though I'll never be a Malconvoker (a shame, because Deceitful Bargaining would be cool and Fiendish Legion would be amazing).

Literally.

Heh, yes.

[HamHam]

Also, if you really like Ray of Enfeeblement, check out Complete Mage's Escalating Enfeeblement. Its 2nd level, and is exactly like Ray of Enfeeblement EXCEPT when used against a target that is already Fatigued/Exhausted/Enfeebled. Then its 1d10+(1/2) CL max 5. Hit your foe with Ray of Exhaustion followed by Escalating Enfeeblement to stack on 1d10 +11 points of Str penalty. Empower Escalating Enfeeblement (with a Lesser Rod) for even more penalty! Your 8 str wizard could probably beat a hill giant in an arm wrestling match at that point!

But it doesn't stack with Ray of Enfeeblement. So I think it's better to just hit them with Ray of Enfeeblement.

[aje8]

Glitterdust is an extremely useful 2nd level spell.... useful well beyond it's level..... it actually scales better than Web does IMO.

Evard's Black Tentacles scales well, as does Solid Fog, Dimension Door.... but those are 4th level spells so actually not relevant for a while.

Hum..... Grease scales pretty well. Invisability does too if your spells are mostly non-blasty. Fly is obviously always awesome.

[Keld Denar]

But it doesn't stack with Ray of Enfeeblement. So I think it's better to just hit them with Ray of Enfeeblement.

Correct. RoEnfeeblement doesn't stack with Escalating Enfeeblement. But EE does stack with Ray of Exhaustion. Thats where the real power comes in. 2 average damage isn't much for HP, but its huge for ability scores. And Empowered, the gap becomes even more. The same Lesser Rod of Empower you used for Ray of Enfeeblement works just the same with Escalating Enfeeblement.

Its a minor increase over RoE, but against the right targets, its WELL worth it.

[deuxhero]

You may want to get some runestaffs (Magic Item compendium, also covered in a web preview for the book) to add to your spells known as a sorc.

[ericgrau]

Since you have a lot of "spell slots" to burn through, I'd use some for morning buffs for yourself and other party members.

• Heroism: +2 to attack rolls, saves, and skill checks. Everyone can benefit from this. And it's a morale bonus so it stacks with almost everything else.
• Greater Magic Weapon: Because your party should always add damage enchantments to their weapons and stay with +1.
• Energy Resistance, Protection from Energy: Get both and pick two different energy types for extra protection. Or even just one of these 2 spells is still good. I'd say cold, fire or electricity since those tend to do the most damage.
• False Life: Casters love more HP. This is about as good as +2 con in that regard. Don't forget to empower it when you get to a higher level, if you have the empower spell feat.
• Magic Circle against Evil: Your. Meatshield. Cannot. Be. Dominated. (or confused, charmed, etc.)
• Stoneskin: DR 10/adamantine.

I think I'll stop at 4th level. I'm not too familiar with psionics but I imagine you'd want to use their buffs too. Basically blow all your extra spells/powers into morning buffs, but make sure you still have enough for in-combat spells/powers.

[Keld Denar]

• Magic Circle against Evil: Your. Meatshield. Cannot. Be. Dominated. (or confused, charmed, etc.)

Wait what? That is NOT correct. Circle (and the base spell, Prot vs Evil) ONLY supress ongoing command. Confusion is not control. Its just random action. Only Mind Blank can protect against Confusion and Insanity. If an Umber Hulk gives your fighter the ol' evil eye, it doesn't matter if he has Circle or not...hes gonna flip out. The +2 on all saves WOULD be relevant to resist the Confusion effect, provided the origionator of the effect was evil.

[Haven]

Don't forget about Ray of Clumsiness. Its Ray of Enfeeblements less dexterous cousin. For some reason they put it in Transmutation instead of Necromancy like RoE, but its still VERY good. Empower it, and RoE for big mean debuffs.

Literally.

Unless spells biologically reproduce and have systems of kinship now, that seems unlikely. :p

[ericgrau]

Wait what? That is NOT correct. Circle (and the base spell, Prot vs Evil) ONLY supress ongoing command. Confusion is not control. Its just random action. Only Mind Blank can protect against Confusion and Insanity. If an Umber Hulk gives your fighter the ol' evil eye, it doesn't matter if he has Circle or not...hes gonna flip out. The +2 on all saves WOULD be relevant to resist the Confusion effect, provided the origionator of the effect was evil.

Ah, I missed that "grant the caster ongoing control" was a limiter not an additional thing. Since confusion is an enchantment (compulsion), I thought it was affected, but it doesn't grant ongoing control. Still works on dominate and charm though.

[Thrawn183]

Doesn't work on charm because charm doesn't grant ongoing control.

[ericgrau]

Then, praytell, which enchantment (charm) spells are included?? It specifically mentions that category.

[Keld Denar]

Dominate and Magic Jar...and....all similar spell-like and SUs concerning possession/domination.

I think that's about it, and it doesn't actually STOP you from getting Dominated...just getting commands while Dominated. I've seen DMs rule that a Prot Evil cast on someone after they've been given a command, will continue trying to carry out that last command to the best of their ability. Technically, they aren't recieving any new commands, and thus aren't exercising ongoing mental control. It does hedge out Magic Jar though.

And charm doesn't work because it doesn't give you the ability to command another being any more than you would command an ally or friend. You are merely asking them. They don't have to comply with your request if its completely out of character. Since there is no "control" ala Dominate, Prot Evil argueably doesn't work. Its kinda a greyish area thats best for the DM to establish before hand.

[DragoonWraith]

Thanks everyone for your continued suggestions!

You may want to get some runestaffs (Magic Item compendium, also covered in a web preview for the book) to add to your spells known as a sorc.

Good call, will look into those. Might be hard to come by unless I start taking item creation feats myself...

And charm doesn't work because ...

Second, the barrier blocks any attempt to possess the warded creature (by a magic jar attack, for example) or to exercise mental control over the creature (including enchantment (charm) effects and enchantment (compulsion) effects that grant the caster ongoing control over the subject, such as dominate person).

Emphasis mine.

There are only 6 enchantment (charm) effects in Core: Charm Animal, Charm Person, Charm Monster, Mass Charm Monster, Enthrall, and Symbol of Persuasion. None of them give you direct control, but somehow enchantment (charm) effects are specifically included. I think it counts.

[Dixieboy]

Unless spells biologically reproduce and have systems of kinship now, that seems unlikely. :p

In 4E archmages become a spell upon death.

[Kris Strife]

Also, living spells are a type of 3.5 monster.

[Keld Denar]

There are only 6 enchantment (charm) effects in Core: Charm Animal, Charm Person, Charm Monster, Mass Charm Monster, Enthrall, and Symbol of Persuasion. None of them give you direct control, but somehow enchantment (charm) effects are specifically included. I think it counts.

Pssst, you missed something...

Second, the barrier blocks any attempt to possess the warded creature (by a magic jar attack, for example) or to exercise mental control over the creature (including enchantment (charm) effects and enchantment (compulsion) effects that grant the caster ongoing control over the subject, such as dominate person).

You need to satisfy 2 conditions for Prot Evil to work.
Is it a Enchantment (charm)? Or is it an Enchantment (compulsion)? Or is it a possession effect?

AND
Does it grant the caster ongoing control over the subject?

Now look at this:

The spell does not enable you to control the charmed person as if it were an automaton, but it perceives your words and actions in the most favorable way. You can try to give the subject orders, but you must win an opposed Charisma check to convince it to do anything it wouldn’t ordinarily do. (Retries are not allowed.)

Emphasis mine. No ongoing control? No blanket immunity.

Contrast to Dominate Person

You can control the actions of any humanoid creature through a telepathic link that you establish with the subject’s mind.

Why they specified Enchantment (charm) when none of the spells are actually applicable? I dunno...why are there any of the other contradictory statements in the rules? Could have been dev oversight in either Prot Evil or the whole Charm subschool. Could have been clever Dev planning to release spells at a later point that are in the Charm subschool AND grant ongoing mental control, but those plans got scrapped by a vindictive editor? I could conspirasy theorize all day long, but the simple matter stands: Charm does not grant ongoing control to the caster, per cited text.

[DragoonWraith]

Pssst, you missed something...

You need to satisfy 2 conditions for Prot Evil to work.
Is it a Enchantment (charm)? Or is it an Enchantment (compulsion)? Or is it a possession effect?

AND
Does it grant the caster ongoing control over the subject?

Now look at this:

Emphasis mine. No ongoing control? No blanket immunity.

Contrast to Dominate Person

First, I would not say that Enchantment (Compulsion), Enchantment (Charm), or a possession effect is an exclusive list. It says including those things, it does not say that it is only those things.

Second, the English is not definitive - it could be saying that enchantment (charm) effects are included, and also enchantment (compulsion) effects "that control the target" are also included. The secondary clause is not necessarily modifying both (technically, there should be a comma before the 'and' if that is the case, but that technicality is very often ignored), and I would read "exercise mental control over the creature (including enchantment (charm) effects" as including Charms, even if it doesn't necessarily fit the previous description.

Further, you could easily argue that Charm Person does grant some measure of control - namely control over another person's emotions and disposition. It's not straight-up mind-control, but Protection from Evil does not explicitly require that.

Why they specified Enchantment (charm) when none of the spells are actually applicable? I dunno...why are there any of the other contradictory statements in the rules? Could have been dev oversight in either Prot Evil or the whole Charm subschool. Could have been clever Dev planning to release spells at a later point that are in the Charm subschool AND grant ongoing mental control, but those plans got scrapped by a vindictive editor? I could conspirasy theorize all day long, but the simple matter stands: Charm does not grant ongoing control to the caster, per cited text.

I certainly see your argument, but do not think it is so cut and dry by RAW.

[woodenbandman]

First, I would not say that Enchantment (Compulsion), Enchantment (Charm), or a possession effect is an exclusive list. It says including those things, it does not say that it is only those things.

Second, the English is not definitive - it could be saying that enchantment (charm) effects are included, and also enchantment (compulsion) effects "that control the target" are also included. The secondary clause is not necessarily modifying both (technically, there should be a comma before the 'and' if that is the case, but that technicality is very often ignored), and I would read "exercise mental control over the creature (including enchantment (charm) effects" as including Charms, even if it doesn't necessarily fit the previous description.

Further, you could easily argue that Charm Person does grant some measure of control - namely control over another person's emotions and disposition. It's not straight-up mind-control, but Protection from Evil does not explicitly require that.


I certainly see your argument, but do not think it is so cut and dry by RAW.

What? No.

This: "enchantment (charm) effects are included, and also enchantment (compulsion) effects "that control the target" are also included."

Is written like this: "Second, the barrier blocks any attempt to possess the warded creature (by a magic jar attack, for example) or to exercise mental control over the creature (including enchantment (charm) effects, and enchantment (compulsion) effects that grant the caster ongoing control over the subject, such as dominate person)."

See giant comma. The lack of a comma in the actual quote means that the first two things are modified by the "grant the caster ongoing control over the subject" clause. This is how grammar works.

[DragoonWraith]

I don't feel like going through the PHB to find an example, but people drop commas exceedingly often.

Regardless, it doesn't really matter. It's up to the DM one way or the other.

I shouldn't have even engaged in the argument; can we get back to the topic of the thread?

[Stegyre]

See giant comma. The lack of a comma in the actual quote means that the first two things are modified by the "grant the caster ongoing control over the subject" clause. This is how grammar works.

No, that is not how grammer works. Quite the opposite, actually.

First, realise that the entire parenthetical is non-restrictive. "Protection from ____" protects against attempts to exercise mental control over the creature. The parenthetical merely gives two examples. As a rule, parenthetical phrases are non-restrictive. A restrictive clause should not be set off, not by commas, parentheses, or anything else. (See Strunk and White's Elements of Style, page 4.)

Second, Charm spells are a form of control. Indeed, the whole point of there inclusion in the parenthetical as an example of a controlling spell would be lost, if this were not the case. The confusion perhaps arises because the Charm spell description explains that "The spell does not enable you to control the charmed person as if it were an automaton . . . ." That is not the same as "no control at all." To the contrary, you can give it orders, and a charisma check is only necessary if those orders are for something out of character. It's "soft" control, rather than "hard" (automaton) control, but still a form of control: you've messed with the target's perspective, so it regards you as friend rather than foe.

Third, a grammatical construction that gives meaning to all parts of the sentence is to be preferred over one that makes one or more parts nonsensical or of no effect. To say that "Protection from ___" prevents an empty set (charm spells that do not grant on-going control as you are using the term control) makes the first clause of the parenthetical meaningless. Yes, people can make such errors, but the presumption is that the writer did not. That presumption carries the day when a different construction makes the entire sentence meaningful, as we can do here.

Fourth, the giant comma inserted by woodenbandman has no relevance to the question and no business being there. (I.e., the original writer didn't put a comma there because, regardless of the intended meaning, a comma does not belong in that position.) A comma is used with a conjunction when joining two independent clauses. What we have here are two phrases: "enchantment (charm) effects" and "enchantment (compulsion) effects . . ." (Regardless of whether one or both phrases carry the weight of the final restrictive clause.) The only time the woodenbandman comma would be inserted would be in a list of three or more items: "enchantment (charm) effects {Big Comma} enchantment (booyah!) effects {Big Comma}, and echantment (compulsion) effects . . . ."

Fifth, while not strict rule of construction, there is a general preference of interpretation to have a restrictive clause ("that grant the caster ongoing control over the subject") modify the nearest target, and only that target. This rule is applied more strictly in legal interpretation, where it's called the last antecedent rule. Setting off the restrictive clause with a comma is interpreted to mean that the restrictive clause should modify all preceding targets, instead of only the nearest. While not controlling, this rule, too, supports the interpretation that Protection blocks charm spells.

[Keld Denar]

Stegyre, in your infinite knowledge of grammer, just curious how you would parse this...

Uncanny Blow: When wielding a one-handed exotic melee weapon in two hands, the character can focus the power of his attack so that he deals extra damage equal to his Strength bonus x2 instead of his Strength bonus x1-1/2. If he has the Power Attack feat, he treats the weapon as two-handed for purposes of determining his bonus on damage rolls.

The 2nd sentance, is that included under the restriction of "one-handed exotic melee weapon in two hands"? If so, its redundant because ANY weapon used in both hands recieves 2:1 PA. So would a character with a 1-handed exotic weapon get 2:1 PA with the weapon regardless of how many hands he uses?

Sorry for hijacking, Mr. Dragoonwrath, but it looks like nearly all the spells in the appropriate level range have been identified, and I'm really really curious to see how someone like Stegyre would interpret this.

That ok with you? Otherwise I'll start a new thread.

[DragoonWraith]

That's fine; that was a really interesting post and I'm curious about your quoted material.

At the same time, I am also eager to hear any other suggestions, should they exist.

Oh, and does anyone happen to know what Sorcerer-only spells are out there (and what books they're in)? I know of Wings of Cover and Flurry, and about those spells that allow you to simultaneously cast two spells of a lower level (forget the name of those spells, though; there's a normal and a greater version), but I'm curious if there are any others.